John Suburbs

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  1. I do. I was waiting to see if you could come up with a plausible reason for leaving her to row all night long instead of grabbing her under cover of darkness and leaving as quickly as possible. The reason he did it the way he did was that as long as he doesn't have Sansa, then any captain in the royal fleet can stop them, board them, search them and, with no Sansa, fall for the cover story that they are just simple traders making their way to King's Landing. If, on the odd chance that it is someone who knows LF on sight, he just grabs some roughspun and takes an oar. So by waiting until dawn, he can be sure that no pursuit is coming by sea, and in the daylight he can make absolutely certain that no one is around to see the last appearance of Sansa Stark. Lol, "GRRM's other mysteries are actually highlighted in the text." By that you must be referring to all the subterfuge and deception that had us believing Cersie and Jaime killed Jon Arryn, or that Robb and Jeyne just happened to fall in love. Remember when Pycelle confirmed to Tyrion that Cersei wanted JA dead? Or when Tywin, Tyrion and half-a-dozen others said Robb just made a "foolish mistake"? Would that have been "case closed" for you? How, exactly, did either of these reveals matter to the plot at that point? Jon Arryn was still dead, Robb was still dead, the northern army defeated and all the surviving characters went on their merry, or unmerry, ways. Same thing here. All of the answers to this mystery are right in the text, clear as a mountain stream -- but you have to be extraordinarily perceptive to pick up on them.
  2. Yes, Tyrion was the target. Both plotters have every reason to kill Tyrion and no reason at all to kill Joffrey. For Littlefinger, Tyrion is well on his way to uncovering all the embezzlement and theft of the crown's gold, which would get LF executed. For Lady O, Tyrion could father the next heir to Winterfell on Sansa at any moment. That would create a power bloc for Tywin consisting of the north, the neck, the riverlands, the westerlands, the crownlands and the stormlands -- enough to field an army that would dwarf anything that Highgarden could muster. Highgarden has been the most powerful house in the realm for thousands of years, and they achieved that exactly the way Tywin is doing it now: through marriage. Now, Lady O is looking at the prospect of an uber-powerful Casterly Rock, which shares a 300-league border with the Reach and is led by a man who doesn't just go to war with rival lords, but burns the countryside to the ground, murders all the smallfolk he can find, razes all the keeps, holdfasts and castles to rubble and utterly annihilates his enemies' entire families, right down to the livery boys. Certainly this is more concerning than maybe someday Joffrey will give Margaery a beating. They had to do the wedding because 1) Littlefinger needed the distraction to get Sansa out unseen by little birds, and 2) they have no other plausible way of getting to Tyrion at any other time. It's not like he dines out a lot. His meals are taken alone, in his solar and his servants are Lannister people, not Tyrells. The last time he dined in public was his own wedding, and Lady O was not part of the plot yet because Robb was still heir to Winterfell, so her motivation has not emerged yet. Cressen did not have a higher dosage. Joffrey's wine was "deep purple" while Cressen didn't notice anything unusual about the color or consistency at all. If anyone should have gone first, it should have been Joffrey. And we're not comparing the time it took for them to die, but from the moment the poison enters the throat -- not the mouth, but the throat -- and the moment "the words caught in his throat." With the poison in Joffrey's wine we have a five- or six-fold discrepancy, but with the pie they are virtually identical. Interesting reads are all well and good, but not if they conflict with the text at every turn. Since Joffrey is no immediate threat to Margaery -- indeed, he's actually giddy around her at the wedding -- they why would Lady O choose this moment to kill him? Her entire family (minus one) is in the Red Keep surrounded Lannister guards. Virtually everyone can see the chalice, making it next to impossible to poison without somebody noticing, least of all the two short people who are looking right past it. And this is all at the direction of the man who lied to the Tyrells to get them in this fix in the first place and who is now safely sitting on his boat way out in the bay. Plus, you have the fact that within the year, Margaery could be mother to the new king and they could get rid of Joffrey at any time and have Margaery serves as Queen Regent for the next decade or more. Instead, they just gave all that power right back to Cersei and left Margy, and themselves, with nothing. So they ended up taking an enormous risk with the entire Tyrell family only to rob themselves of the power that would have been theirs, and all to prevent a problem that could be dealt with much more easily and with far less risk if and when it actually became a problem. I ask again: where is the text that makes people believe Lady O is this colossally stupid?
  3. No, having the ship closer in means he can get messages very quick -- either signals from shore or a fast cutter out to his position. Then he can turn his little fanny in the direction of Braavos before anyone knows he was involved and the fleet can be sent to intercept him. Then why didn't he pick up Sansa as soon as possible, under cover of darkness? Why wait for hours until the sun comes up? He would have been well on his way to the fingers by dawn, so why delay? GRRM is the most careful, detailed writer of his generation, which is why it takes so long between each book. Every other reveal has squared the discrepancies between the widely held belief and the text, not added to them. If the theory you believe in is implausible, then the fault lies with your reading, not his writing.
  4. Even though it's impossible? How could Cressen's normal-looking wine kill him faster than Joffrey's "deep purple" wine? How could Littlefinger possibly know that the chalice, despite virtually all the odds, would wind up within arm's reach of Garlan? If it was even a foot to the left or right, then the plan is bust, no? And Margaery heads off to the bedding with loathsome Joffrey. Why would Lady O choose this moment to kill Joffrey when he is absolutely no danger to Margy? Her entire family goes to the block if just one person sees Garlan reach over to the chalice. Why not wait until her family is safe back at Highgarden and Margy is the queen mother and can rule in her own right after Joffrey's death? Why strip her of all rank and privilege in such a high risk manner on the chance that, five years from now, she'll get it all back again? Why would LF, Mr. Chaos himself, remove the most chaotic, politically powerful person in the kingdom? What kind of chaos does he expect to get with Tommen on the throne and Tywin as hand? If it's k.i.s.s. you want, then the pie is far simpler: Easy to poison: Lady O can do it all by herself; no need to involve family members, no need for trusted servants. Hardly anybody can see the pie, while virtually everyone can see the wine. No discrepancies with the text: the physical facts line up, the logistics are easy (no doubt as to where the pie will be at the moment it needs to be poisoned), and the motivations of the principal plotters jive with their GoT ambitions, not the imagined fears of 21st Century book readers. And it doesn't add an extra page-and-a-half of completely superfluous text that does nothing except establish a red herring that few people will pick up on. If the poison was in the wine, why not just have Joffrey drop after his third chug?
  5. Lol, just as plausible as the wine theory.
  6. As I've explained multiple times, none of this "truth" about Joffrey is news to either of them. Everything Sansa "reveals" is public knowledge at this point. The point of that conversation was to learn about Sansa, of whom they know nothing. And the text proves my point, as they both react to this "truth" with hardly any concern at all. Talk about disregarding the text.
  7. Sorry dude, but you're so far out in left field that there is no point in going on. Mace Tyrell is the one running Highgarden. Littlefinger has no reason to know what happening in the Red Keep. Margy, Olenna, Mace, Garlan and everyone else is lying and LF is the only one telling the truth Littlefinger can predict the future. And dark purple wine is more concentrated than normal looking wine. As Tormund would say, "Har!" to all of it.
  8. Hogwash. Everyone who is anyone knows it was Tarly who wins battles, not Mace, that he did absolutely nothing at his two sieges of Storm's End, and every time we see him it is beyond clear that he is a blustering blowhard: Of course, only an imbecile like Mace would attack MC from the south. But there is more. Here is Mace and Lady O together following Tywin's funeral: So here he is completely oblivious to the fact that any deal made with Tywin died with Tywin. And I'm trying to imagine any other high lords who actually is in control of his houses -- Ned, Tywin, Doran -- allowing their mothers to upbraid them in front of their sovereign like that. The text is clear: Mace is a boob and Lady O is really running things in Highgarden. Silly. If Sansa gets caught, the first person she will give up is Dontos. The second will be Lady O. Exactly, eventually it may go south. So there is no reason at all to kill him now, and in such a high-risk manner at a time when the entire Tyrell family is vulnerable to arrest, imprisonment and execution. A smart player like Lady O would wait until her family is safe and Margaery's status as Queen is secure as mother to the heir(s) of the Iron Throne. Then they could get rid of Joffrey in any number of ways, in private instead of in plain view of hundreds of people, and then have Margy serve as regent until her son comes of age, just like Cersei did. Again, this fundamental misreading of Lady Olenna is at the heart of your misconceptions surrounding the whole plot. She is simply not that stupid. For crying out loud, it's repeated multiple times in the text: poison is a weapon for women, cowards and eunuchs. No self-respecting knight would shame himself by using poison. Knights challenge each other formally and then fight with swords, maces, axes and other manly weapons. Knights don't even use bows because they are considered to cowardly. No, with the pie, the only one lying is Littlefinger. Lady O and Margy are not afraid of Joffrey, just as they say. Joffrey is not hostile to Margy, just as he behaves. Garlan and/or Leonette are not duplicitous: they truly are kind to Tyrion and Sansa. None of the other Tyrells are even aware of the plot, which guards against loose lips. No trusted servants are needed. Nobody but Lady O and Littlefinger and Dontos. And suppose the chalice did not end up right in front of Garlan, which itself was a highly improbably outcome. Suppose it stayed right at Joffrey's place, right next to Tywin and Cersei. Suppose he took it with him to the cutting, where only Margy (maybe) could get to it? Suppose it somehow ended up near Kevan and Lancel. Nobody, least of all Littlefinger, knows exactly where the chalice will be at the exact moment it has even the remotest chance of being poisoned unseen: right when the pie is being opened. So in order to make this a viable plan, they need an untold number of co-conspirators just to cover all the likely places, and either the ability to secretly slice the crystal into dozens of tiny little shards and hand them out to each co-conspirator or a quick yet surreptitious way to get the crystal to whomever is nearest to the chalice. And if it's on the floor out of Margy's reach during the cutting, well she is just out of luck and will be dragged off to the marriage bed a few moment's later. So much for months of planning and literally years, if not decades, dynastic ambition. Ugh, Littlefinger again. The biggest liar in the book. Littlefinger knows ahead of time that Joffrey will place the chalice in exactly the right spot, not a foot to the left or a foot to the right, for Garlan to drop the poison. Littlefinger's boat cannot move over the water so that at midnight he is close enough to hear the bells but then able to pick Sansa up at dawn. He is so dimwitted that he has no possible way to find out what has happened in the throne room or whether the call has been put out for his arrest and the royal fleet is currently cutting off his escape. His plan is to literally sit idle on his boat all night long, way out in the bay, and wait for Sansa to come rowing up out of the mist. Littlefinger lies. It's what he does. We also had multiple explanations as to why Cersei and Jaime killed Jon Arryn, but who was actually behind it? Oh yeah, Littlefinger. Cersei has a much better claim to stay in King's Landing as mother to King Tommen than King Joffrey. The precedent is clear: as long as the king is underage, his mother rules as regent and wields all the king's power. It is just as likely that Queen Regent Cersei could have dismissed Hand Tywin rather than the other way around. The basis for the Lannister threat is the basic geopolitical shift that has just taken place on the continent, all spelled out clearly and plainly in the text. House Tyrell/Gardner has been the hegemon for literally thousands of years while the Lannisters were their weak neighbor to the north. Now, in the span of two decades, that balance has been turned on its head, and if the Lannisters get the north they can easily match, if not exceed, anything that the Tyrells could muster. Mace, of course, is too dim to see this, but the real power in Highgarden, whom the text clearly shows is a sharp-eyed, sharp-minded operator, knows it all too well. What is completely unsupported in the text is the idea that Lady O and Margy are afraid of Joffrey or that he poses any threat to her at all. Characters all throughout the book are puzzled by the thinking and motivations of others. This is Sansa's naiveté, not a secret signal from the author. And that's a funny statement from someone who takes everything that Littlefinger says at face value. Joffrey is cruel to people who displease him. He does not spew random cruelty at anyone and everyone who happens to be near him. Margaery has not given him any reason to be displeased with her, and, again straight from the text, her manipulation of him is clear proof that she is likely to stay on his good side for a long time to come. He's a skinny, insecure 13 year old and she's a smoking hot 17. She'll be like putty in his hands for a good long time. And what do you know about abuse? To this day I still get headaches that I am convinced are from the time my father hit me with an iron plumber's wrench. I don't remember why he did this, since I was only six at the time. I still carry the scars on my forearm from the time my brother's friends held me down on the schoolbus and he cut me up nice and proper with his new copper-edged ruler. And the other one on my back when he dipped his towel in water, rolled it up into what we used to call a rat tail, and whipped me like I was a runaway slave. Don't even talk to me about abuse. This is not "outlined in-text", this is BS spewed from the liar's mouth. When has Joffrey ever mistreated Margaery? When has Joffrey ever shown the slightest intention to mistreat Margy? Again, you have Lady O so utterly braindead that she is willing to risk the lives of her entire family on the chance that someday maybe Joffrey will give Margaery a black eye, and all because the known liar and double-dealer who got her into this fix in the first place says he wants to make things right -- but just in case, he'll be safe and sound out in the bay the whole time. Please show me the text that makes you believe that Lady O is this big of an idiot? We're talking about the conversation between Sansa and Lady O at dinner, right? When Sansa blabbers on about what a great lord Mace is and how handsome and noble Joffrey is, to absolutely no one's belief? What, exactly, is she observing here? What "political skills" is she demonstrating? She's a scared little girl who is intimidated into finally telling the truth, and then blabs her secret plan to the one man who can undo it and precipitate her marriage to the imp. And this is the same Sansa who has learned next to nothing as Alayne, having easily blown her cover in her first conversation with someone outside the Eyrie (Randa). So, no, Sansa has not grown much, other than to be a little less infatuated with songs. She's still a very young babe in a very deep, dark woods. The literary purpose is the same as the reveals surrounding the Arryn murder, the Red Wedding plot and half-a-dozen other surprises throughout the series: that the easy explanation sitting on the surface is never the truth, particularly when it clashes so readily with text, real-world facts and plain old common sense. The real truth lies in the subtext, but you have to be a very good reader, and be able to think for yourself, to see it.
  9. It seems the more he goes on, the more Stannis resembles an Other: taught skin over hard bones, blues eyes...
  10. Mace would never have agreed to the wedding if his mother was unsure about it. Remember, it's Lady O who calls the shots in Highgarden, not Mace. The scene outside the sept following Tywin's funeral proves that. lol, so in order for this to be true, then we have to assume the following: That Margaery and Lady O are both lying when they say they are not concerned by Joffrey, even though there is absolutely no reason to lie to Sansa about this and every reason to tell her the truth That Joffrey himself is lying when he's twirling Margy in the air and acting like a giddy schoolboy around her That Garlan and Leonette are both lying to Tyrion and Sansa. Garlan is actually a sniveling coward who would stoop to poison. That Loras, Mace, Allerie and every other Tyrell in the room is lying because they are all in on the plot -- and Butterbumps too, if some people are to be believed. All these people are lying, and the only one who is not lying is Littlefinger -- who is also known as the single biggest liar in the book. The justification is all throughout the text; you just have to read it. The Tyrells have the strongest house in the realm, power that has been achieved through marriage, not conquest. Lady Olenna is the titular head of this most powerful house, and the text makes it clear that she is a sharp-minded player of the Game of Thrones. Textually, there can be no other conclusion than that she is concerned with the future of her house, not the happiness or safety of a single member, even herself. And the decision to join with Tywin is perfectly in keeping with this thinking: if they had opposed him it would have been an emotional, short-sighted decision, but they joined him because it was the right thing for House Tyrell to align with one enemy to defeat another. Once they have their progeny ruling as king there would be plenty of options to undo the Lannister empire, but they can't do that very easily with Tommen on the throne and Cersei as regent rather than Joffrey. So lack of evidence is proof of intent? Wow. Lady Olenna says nothing about hiking up her dress and letting Butterbumps ride her like an elephant in the middle of the throne room, so obviously, this is what she means to do. Just because Sansa got it from Joff doesn't mean Margaery is in the same boat. Sansa witnessed Joffrey's shame on the Trident and then found herself alone and undefended in the capital while her house was in open rebellion to the crown. This is why Sansa and Sansa alone was mistreated. Joffrey does not pull highborn ladies out at random and order his KG to start beating them with swords. Margaery has given Joffrey no reason to mistreat her and she is a master at manipulation, as we saw in both Storm and Feast. She's going to have him wrapped around her finger for a good long time. And if he ever does become a problem, there are plenty of ways to off him that don't require a high risk poisoning of a giant golden chalice that can be seen by literally hundreds of people, all at a time when the entire Tyrell family is in danger of arrest, imprisonment and execution. No, this is not political skill, this is Sansa misreading the entire situation. And since she conveys this through a PoV, the reader is left believing it as well. Very deftly done, George.
  11. I think what you're describing is way beyond simple denial. She isn't trying to convince herself of anything: she flat out has no memory of it ever happening. That is way different than doing something you believe to be right but turns out to be wrong, and you have remorse for that. Her reaction out in the godswood was brought on by the emotion of the experience. She is a 13yo girl and she's just seen the boy she once loved then hated die in a fit of agony. So the hysterical laughter is more a sign that Lady Tanda thought she was weeping for Joffrey when in reality she was simply overcome with emotional fright. All I can say is you have a straw here, and a very thin one at that.
  12. I think you would need more than just simple memory loss, but an actual split personality, aka Dissociative Identity Disorder. And although there is no real consensus as to what that is, it almost invariably arises from severe, ongoing psycho-sexual trauma from a very young age. And this simply could not have happened to Sansa at Winterfell with no one, let alone her own family, the wiser. There is another thing called selective amnesia, but this almost always happens to block out a traumatic event that has happened to you, not something that you do to another. This might be behind the unkiss, assuming that what happened in her PoV is not really what happened, but applying it to her not knowing she is the poisoner is a stretch, and a long one at that. Plus, of all the people on the planet that Littlefinger would trust with the nerve-wracking act of poisoning the king at his own wedding in front of hundreds of people, Sansa should be dead last on the list, especially if she is psychologically unstable. How is Littlefinger supposed to know which Sansa will be in control at the crucial moment? In addition, if this was the plan, then the hairnet is not only a completely unnecessary risk, but Lady Olenna's fussing with it before the feast, providing cover for LF's explanation to Sansa later, was a completely random act -- yet another extraordinary bit of luck for the luckiest person in the history of Westeros. And in any event, this can be discounted because there was no wind that day and Sansa was wearing a hairnet, so the wind could not have been at her hair. I know the pie theory has a lot of moving parts, but all the parts fit. The physical discrepancies between the two poisonings fit, the logistics fit, the motivations of the principal plotters are more in keeping with their characterizations as master GoT players, there is no need to invent ideas or suppositions that are not clearly supported in the text.
  13. Lol, nicely stated. I will point out, however, that regardless of who the poisoner is, the wine introduces an endless string of anomalies and downright contradictions with the text, while the pie has none. There is no time discrepancy with the pie. Nor do the plotters need to rely on an entire series of extremely unlikely events to get the pie in place to be poisoned. We do not need infinite co-conspirators or trusted servants to do the pie; Lady O can do it easily by herself. We don't need to assume that everyone is lying -- Lady O, Margaery, Garlan, etc. ... even Joffrey -- while the only one telling the truth is Littlefinger. Tyrion and the pie also align perfectly with the motives of the principal plotters, unlike Joffrey, whose death confounded their games big-time. And we don't need to wonder why Lady O simply did not poison one of Joffrey's first plates rather than wait until practically the last minute to do the chalice that the Tyrells gave the couple and that Margaery would very likely drink from as well, either before or in the half-minute or more after Joffrey drank. We also don't need to wonder why Lady O is entering into a plot with the known liar and backstabber who got them into this fix in the first place, with no other motivation on his part other than he feels bad and wants to make things right. Or why she would then consent to a plan that is almost certain to fail and lead to the arrest and possible execution of practically her entire family while said liar and backstabber is safely aboard his boat in the bay. If just one of two of these contradictions existed, they could probably be smoothed over, logic-wise. But there are literally dozens of these questions from the moment the plot was hatched up to a past the actual poisoning. The pie solves all of this: physically, logistically, motivationally and textually.
  14. No, there is nothing that Sansa tells Lady O about Joffrey that she should not already know by now. In the first place, she should have gotten all the scoop about the real Joffrey from Loras, if not Renley himself. Secondly, let's look at what Sansa actually reveals. First, that Joffrey promised mercy for Ned but took his head anyway. But the promise of mercy was made by Joffrey in open court, where his words would have been recorded and entered into the official history of the realm. So no big secret there. Then, he publicly declared at the Sept of Baelor in front of thousands of people that despite the pleadings of his mother, his betrothed and his small council, he is executing Ned anyway. So right there, Lady O has all the information she needs to know that Joffrey is not only cruel, but heedless as well and completely oblivious to his geopolitical situation and how it affects his hold on the Iron Throne. Then, Sansa reveals the beatings she has been taking. But again, this is no secret. Sansa has been appearing at court for weeks with bruises and cuts, and the only person on the planet who could do that to her would be the king himself. But if there was any doubt, then it was removed at the beating following Oxcross, which was conducted in the bailey in front of dozens of highborn lords and ladies, including Lady Olenna's own grandsons. So you may be wondering, if not to learn about Joffrey, then what was the point of all that questioning? Well, let's consider what Lady O does not know and what she can learn from Sansa and only Sansa. She knows next to nothing about Sansa herself, does she. All she knows is whatever official announcements came from Winterfell and whatever she could glean through the grapevine. Then, she shows up in King's Landing as a proper young woman as befits her station, fully practiced in her courtesies and all the rest. But Lady O is the first to realize that your court persona can be very different from your real persona. So who is the real Sansa? Is she smart? stupid? Is she a conniver? a backstabber? Will she make a valuable addition to House Tyrell or will she be a major PotA? Once Sansa told the truth about Joffrey, Lady O knew she had a good heart and would jeopardize her own situation by warning a total stranger about the danger she was in. And it was right after that that Willas was put on the table. You should know by now that the show is not the books and the books are not the show. You can't use one as canon for the other. Lady Olenna is a long-time player of the Game of Thrones and is certainly capable of matching wits with Tywin; in fact, she is even better at it because she uses guile and stealth to get her way rather than brute force. I'm going to ignore the rest because it appears that you are threatening the kill me if I don't stop expressing my opinions on this board, which I am (almost) certain is not what you meant to say.
  15. She has to choose one or the other here: either she kills Joffrey and avoids a life of torment for Margaery, or she kills Tyrion and prevents Tywin Lannister from setting the Reach ablaze, like he did to the Riverlands, sacking and burning Highgarden, like he did to King's Landing, and exterminating House Tyrell, like he did to the Reynes and Tarbecks. And as I said earlier, this idea that Lady O and/or Margaery are even the slightest bit concerned about Joffrey has absolutely no basis in text, nor does the idea that Joffrey is hostile to Margaery in any way shape or form. If you have anything, anything at all, that supports this view, please share. Given his giddiness at the wedding ("Come, my lady", he "twirled her about, merrily") I would argue that Margaery is probably the only person in the entire world that Joffrey does not despise.
  16. This is the whole point, Ygrain. Joffrey is not the target, Tyrion is. Is this the reason for your confusion? Neither LF nor LO have any reason to kill Joffrey and every reason to kill Tyrion. Joffrey will provide all the chaos that LF can dream of, and more, while for Lady O he provides the heir they desperately need to cement their hold on the Iron Throne. Without Joffrey, neither of them can forward their plans in the Game of Thrones, and their aims could very well be scotched over the next five years while they wait for Tommen to come of age. Meanwhile, Tyrion is a clear and present danger to both of them. As Master of Coin, Tyrion is on the verge of uncovering all of Littlefinger's swindling of the crown's gold, which would get him stripped of his titles and probably beheaded. As Sansa's husband, Tyrion is on the verge of fathering the next heir to Winterfell, which would give Tywin control of more than half the realm, given that he already has his fingers in the Westerlands, the Crownlands, the Stormlands, the Riverlands and the Neck. That puts the hegemony that the Tyrells/Gardners have maintained, through marriage, for thousands and years in grave jeopardy, and the man who can now field a larger army is a ruthless mad dog who feigns friendship and then sacks and burns your cities, invades rival lands and murders, rapes and pillages all your smallfolk, razes your castles to the ground and exterminates rival families to the very last member. There is absolutely no way that Lady Olenna Tyrell, being the hard-nose realist that she is, would think that protecting Margaery from a few beatings by Joffrey is more important than the wholesale slaughter of thousands of smallfolk, the utter destruction of the Reach countryside and the extinction of House Tyrell.
  17. Rubbish. She is a player of the highest order. How else could she have risen to become the titular head of the most power house in the realm in an overwhelmingly paternalistic society? She is smart as a whip and she knows where power lies: with your army, not your children.
  18. Lady SH wants Roose Bolton: the man who betrayed her son and drove the sword through his heart. And if I'm right that Roose is actually the last son of the Night's King and has been skinchanging into his offspring through the millennia, we'll have LSH and Roose fighting to the true death at some point, except it won't be vs. Roose per se, but Ramsey.
  19. I thought there was some text somewhere that had her eyes a deep purple that most people thought they were black at first. But I couldn't find it on a quick scan. If I spot it, I'll post it.
  20. Murder is the intentional killing of another person. It does not have to be the person you meant to kill, indeed, it could be a completely random person that you don't even know. That's why gangsters and terrorists still get life, or death, when they set off bombs and spray bullets into crowds. Hogwash. Why would LF tell Dontos any more than he needs to know? It just increases the chances of the whole plan being blown in the quite likely event that he will get himself caught. In medieval just, an eye for an eye applied to families as much as individuals. This is why sons and daughters were taken as hostages for their lord's behavior. It's why Jaime attacked Ned when Cersei took Tyrion, why Tywin started burning the Riverlands -- none of these people had committed the affront to House Lannister, but they paid the price. This is the heart of your failure to see the truth here: you are applying 21st Century notions of justice and morality to a feudal society. It's why you think Lady O would be more concerned about Margaery's safety than the potential destruction of her house. More hogwash. Tyrion became LF's target once he turned up alive after the battle, and since he's such a perceptive guy he could easily see how his marriage to Sansa and the Red Wedding would make him a target for Lady O. You're dreaming on the choking thing. Have you ever seen someone choking? They're gasping for breath, face turning red, then purple, eyes bulging out of their skull... And you think people would just ignore this spectacle because Tyrion's a dwarf? Nonsense. Sure, it's not as much commotion as with the king, but it's enough to get Sansa out. The man is literally dying before everyone's eyes, for several minutes. It's not a minor point. It speaks directly to the reason Tyrion was selected as the target. The book, then the show, then history, then back to the show, then the book... Enough with this already. You're chasing ghosts. Again, you are failing to distinguish between medieval attitudes and modern ones. Plenty of queens, both real and fictional, have endured far worse for their crowns. Lady O and Margy certainly know the deal when it comes to highborn ladies and their husbands -- maybe you get a good one, but if not you bear it and produce heirs for the honor of your house. And again, I'll point out that at the time of the wedding, Joffrey has shown no signs of hostility toward Margy, in fact it is the exact opposite. Margy and LO have shown not the slightest bit of concern over him, and there is absolutely no reason to suspect that Joffrey would become a problem for Margy for years if not decades. They could get rid of him at any time and Margy, as the mother of the new king, would become queen regent in her own right. She is in no danger now, but she would be full queen the next morning with Joffrey while Cersie is shipped off to her next husband in the fortnight. So in your estimation, Lady Olenna, the sharp-as-nails GoT player who, through scheming and plotting, has risen to the height of power in an overwhelmingly paternalistic society, thinks it's better to trade a sure thing for something that "might" happen five years from now, all to avoid a danger that is non-existent at the moment and would, at best, leave Margy with a few bruises before she could hatch a plan to kill her abuser, like Cersie did? All of the unforeseeable events that have taken place after the wedding simply proves my point: the next year is not certain, let alone the next half decade. What is certain, however, is that if Joffrey had lived, Margaery would have woken up the next day as Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, with all the power and influence that entails, while Cersie would have been a nobody.
  21. The first quote is laughable. He starts off by stating directly that he makes not promises because he has more surprises to reveal. Secondly, he qualifies his statements about what "the careful reader" would conclude. Then in the second graf and the bit about murdering young Hitler, he's back to talking about the show because that's what the questioner was asking him. The second quote is also worded very carefully: "the poison that is used to kill Joffrey" "the idea with Joffrey's death" Then the whole bit about Eustace, and then back to Joffrey, which again, by this point he is back talking about the show, because that is what the questioner was originally referring to. Nowhere does he say his death was intentional or that the poison was in the wine. In fact, he states directly that "the whole realm will see Joffrey choke to death on a piece of pie or something." If the intent was to make it seem like he choked on pie, why poison his wine? Why add yet another layer of uncertainty to this plan that is already chock full of impossibly random coincidences by poisoning the wine, which both Joff and Marge are expected to share, and then trust to hope that he has a bite of pie in his mouth at the time, rather than just poisoning the piece of pie that only Joffrey would eat? This is what I mean when I say you can't draw any firm conclusions from these interviews following the show episode. In any given response, he's talking about the book, the show, historical precedence, all using carefully crafted language that implies one thing but actually means something different entirely. He's a master wordsmith. He's good at this. And since the conclusion that most people draw from all this is in direct conflict with so many inalterable facts in the text, then grasping at imaginary straws from these SSMs is a fool's game -- literally.
  22. The creature that we call Roose would not necessarily have limited himself to House Bolton through the ages. He could very well have finagled his way into dozens of northern houses -- including the Starks, a la Brandon Ice-Eyes. Eventually, of course, he would return to the Dreadfort, which is why many houses today shun them, since misfortune would tend to visit the house that married a daughter to Lord Bolton. I know it sounds far-fetched, but I can't see any other reason why even a despicable lord like Roose would not only forgive the fact that his bastard murdered his trueborn son and heir -- a man who, by all accounts, had the makings of being a champion jouster and a true leader of men -- but then reward the killer with legitimacy and both the Dreadfort and Winterfell. And how does Roose know for sure that Ramsey is his? Why, the eyes, of course. I'll bet Domeric did not have pale eyes, probably grey, like a Stark, which means he was the one not of Roose's body, and therefore ineligible to be flayed and occupied.
  23. Sure, her motive is to kill the king in the most risky way possible at a time when her entire family is at the mercy of the Lannisters and all their guards, all to prevent the possibility that someday, way off in the future, Joffrey might give Margaery a black eye. And in the bargain, she gives up on getting an heir to the Iron Throne within a year or two, instead rolling the dice that five years from now, circumstances will still favor a real marriage between Tommen and Margaery, or that Tommen (or Margaery) will even be alive. Oh, and meanwhile, Tywin will have consolidated his control over the Westerlands, Crownlands, Stormlands, Riverlands, the Neck and the North -- thanks to his grandson, aka, the new Lord of Winterfell -- so that his armies will forever dwarf anything that Highgarden can muster. I mean, it's not like the Reach and the Westerlands share a thousand miles of common border full of land disputes and conflicts over resources, or that Tywin invades rival's lands, killing everything he sees, burning everything to the ground and wiping out the entire families of lords who cross him. I mean, what is that compared to a bruise on Margaery's pretty face?
  24. No, he has never said that. Not in any way, shape or form. Please provide the link if you have one.
  25. Dontos doesn't know what's going on. All he knows is that he has to make sure Sansa wears the hairnet to the wedding. And yes, justice could be had by killing any Lannister, since it was Lannisters who killed her family. And I'll also point out that at that point, Tyrion was not the target -- heck, everybody thought he was already dead. So for all we know, LF could have had Joffrey, Cersei or even Tywin in his sights. Sure it would have. Plenty of commotion to slip away unseen. You think the spectacle of a man choking to death over several minutes would cause people to just loll around the room, waiting for the next course?