Trigger Warning

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    How you going, Dave?
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  1. Well it kind of is but for plot magic. They didn't even breach any of the walls or capture any section of the walls yet for unknown reasons everyone thinks the fight's over because some sallies didn't go well and they start running away, I mean I get that a lot of them are raw recruits and the King left the battlements but the enemy fleet was aflame and men were landing in drips and drabs, they still held the walls, how could morale be that low before a single section of the wall even falls? Blackwater is just levels of what the fuck is going on over even more layers of what the fuck is going on but that's all it's meant to be really, a big dumb and fun battle to read. It went well because GRRM wrote it to go well which is why it's not fun analysing it, in any other circumstance the plan would just be ridiculous in comparison to landing at the Iron Gate and a man like Stannis wouldn't be choosing it. It being marginally quicker doesn't seem worth the cost of having to destroy an enemy fleet, make all of your landings back and forth under fire, land men in drips and drabs directly under the enemy walls and risk being caught by the chain. Walls shouldn't be easy to take, any plan should be made under the assumption that you might not take the walls in a week let alone a day, then again in ASOIAF castles seem to fall like paper when they need to and be impregnable when not.
  2. Trying to get the army across the river rather than just landing South of the river opening and taking them North is just dumb regardless. The river has an enemy fleet, two defensive towers with a chain and a section of wall covering the entire river and landing area with artillery where as the Iron Gate has... a gate. First they should have halted in Blackwater Bay and blockaded the Lannister fleet in the river, sent someone to speak with Stannis, take stock of the situation and decide on how they're going to carry the attack out since you know, they're about to undertake a huge combined operation from land and sea, then they should have thought I know, maybe I shouldn't try and ferry an army across a river that's covered directly by the walls and the citadel, maybe I should just take a bit more time and ferry the army just a little bit North with my huge fleet so that we don't have to fight a naval battle and then ferry men back and forth whilst being slammed with arrows and trebuchets. We can also land the entire army before beginning the assault, rather than them being dumped directly in front of the walls and having to attack or sit there under attack from the walls before we can get more reinforcements from the other side. I don't know if Imry is a bad admiral or not, I know he was given bad orders though. Then again he is a bad admiral for not going "listen, this is dumb as fuck we're going to the Iron Gate." You can make the excuse that they needed to be quick but if that's the case WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING A CITY, that could take days, weeks, months, it's a walled city with a citadel and several thousand defenders. I hate Blackwater because it just comes across as Stannis being stupid for the sake of the plot.
  3. The ridiculous thing is that Stannis made no attempt to take the chain tower on his side of the river at all, would have been no easy task but he was the bloody Master of Ships, he knows that thing is new and he knows full well how he intends to cross the river. It just comes across as being written out of character, we're told that Stannis is a solid commander but if that's the case this strikes me as a character acting dumb to fit the spectacle that's already been laid out. If it was a case of the tower being too strong to capture in the time given (which isn't ridiculous considering the struggle such fortifications represent) then how does he expect to ferry an army across the river under opposition and not only carry the walls but also the citadel. Basically the Blackwater's dumb, it's fun to read, it's not fun to analyse.
  4. This sounds like you're suggesting that the scouts are going to be acting under the assumption that those hulks are stuffed with wildfire. The scouts would have a look, see the fleet and and the towers and then return to Imry. They have absolutely no reason to get close enough to spot the wildfire unless they were already looking for it. Even if they take the winch towers they still have to engage and destroy Tyrion's fleet to continue with the landing, either that or ferry troops to the North which I doubt Stannis will allow since there's no apparent need to do so, Tyrion's not going to unleash the wildfire until battle is joined, in any case all this is doing it costing time which is precisely what the defenders need. Honestly the reason why I disagree with the scouts is because the plan is moronic with or without them, everything from marching off with inadequate supplies for siege (Ahh we'll just capture a walled city with a citadel with thousands of defenders through an assault, no worries) to just flat out trying to storm the city mid river crossing, the entire idea is just rule of cool for GRRM to have a naval battle before the walls of King's Landing. With or without the scouts and the chain he still has to smash his way up the Blackwater Rush, really they should have just landed North of the city or Stannis should have just crossed up river. The Blackwater always seemed to be inspired by the fall of Constantinople in 1204 but with much less nuance.
  5. Just as The Drunkard stated what would scout ships achieve? They would see the Lannister fleet and probably assume that the hulks are loaded with Lannister soldiers, they're not going to get close enough to notice wildfire and they have no reason to risk getting that close unless they were already acting on the assumption that said ships were loaded with ridiculous amounts of the substance. I think it would be assumed that if anything was truly amiss the men on Stannis' side of the river that had been sitting in full view of the Lannister fleet for days would attempt to communicate with them. Regarding the the chain the most likely scenario would be that the Lannisters would attempt to cut Stannis' fleet in half, in which case their best option is to get as many ships through quickly to overwhelm the small Lannister fleet, they were already late, Stannis would probably tear Imry a new one if he halted the entire assault and anchored his fleet to deal with a chain tower, if that was anyone's business it was Stannis'. Most criticism that falls on Imry simply comes down to hindsight about not anticipating such large quantities of wildfire being used in such a manner. Halting the fleet would have saved it but in any other circumstances he'd be getting chewed out for being incompetent and too cautious, he'd probably be getting blamed for giving Tywin time to attack on this board all the time. He has limited room to manoeuvre, he has to smash the Lannister fleet by simply overwhelming them head on since he can't envelop them, even with an open ocean to manoeuvre naval warfare at this technological level wasn't massively complicated once battle was joined.
  6. Everything about Dorne feels like an afterthought. Feels like it would barely even be in the books if Oberyn wasn't introduced as a good character in Storm, I'm pretty sure all the Dorne stuff came to be as an idea after Oberyn and his duel was created.
  7. They're not going to accept any offer that doesn't involve hostages for fear of exactly what you're saying Tywin should have done instead.
  8. They demanded hostages in exchange for clemency for all of their crimes and agreeing to the demands of you vassals and then arresting them sets a very, very bad precedent in the eyes of your other vassals.
  9. Yeah that's reasonable but I think we'd need a solid description of exactly how it happened for a real judgement, for example the mines may not even fill if he didn't seal all the exits. Tywin's obviously incredibly cruel anyway so it could be either but we just don't know if everyone dying was his intention or whether it was simply the only consequence of choosing the most quick and effective means to defeat them.
  10. He saw a quick way to overcome a formidable fortress at the cost of killing all of the people inside. Even if it wasn't his intention to kill everyone it would still make sense to choose this option. Had he stormed the fortress he'd have lost many men or perhaps may not even be able to take it and even if he did most of those people inside would probably die in the attack or he could besiege it and wait for them to yield, giving other vassals the chance to intervene, spending money on food and men or inviting the chance of any number of things breaking the siege in such a lengthy commitment of time. They refused to submit unless Tywin gave them hostages, Tywin chose the most smart and expedient option he had. Shame about everyone dying inside but he had seen a way to destroy them with relative ease without the need for siege or storm, would be silly if he didn't use it.
  11. "I charge you to ride to the westlands with all haste, to cross the Red Fork of the Trident under the king’s flag, and there bring the king’s justice to the false knight Gregor Clegane, and to all those who shared in his crimes. I denounce him, and attaint him, and strip him of all rank and titles, of all lands and incomes and holdings, and do sentence him to death. May the gods take pity on his soul" Because of this I and since the Mummer's Ford is along the Red Fork I always assumed they were riding for the Golden Tooth and taking the most typical (and expected) route. It at least seems that Ned had expected Gregor to be in the Westerlands by now and as such maybe not still in the field.
  12. Wasn't Beric just riding to Gregor's keep? Also there'd be confusion and chaos, it would have to go from local knights to their lords and so on, someone would have to raise a sufficient force and by the time they do the raiders probably wouldn't even be in their lands anymore or retreating to the west. Even if you can track them you'll probably never catch up with them, basically why cavalry is used for raiding.
  13. The ranks of Robert's Household guard probably just consist of the Kinsguard and Gold Cloaks plus his court full of lords and knights that surround him. Of course he could have had guards in his own livery but I don't think he'd care enough to go to the trouble, his household guard from Storm's End likely passed to Renly and Renly likely has them as well as retainers in King's Landing, we just have no reason for them to be highlighted. Regarding the show Bob actually does have Baratheon guards, the first men that ride into Winterfell, he's also surrounded by them when he eats with Ned in that field in Season 1, show isn't really meant to be discussed here though.
  14. A time when most of the fractious Reach has just united behind Renly would probably be the worst time to start a rebellion.
  15. Maybe one or both think the other's a prick. Having some limited similarity doesn't mean they should get along.