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About JNR

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  1. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    In that case, information it provides must be considered GRRM-approved? Since, in theory, it came from GRRM. So for instance, Melisandre must be from Asshai (since the app states flatly that she is). But we know, factually, that she is not from Asshai, by her own private thoughts in her POV chapter. Similarly, the app claims that in the middle of the war Aerys heard a public rumor that Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the ToJ and therefore he sent Hightower there to retrieve Rhaegar. But this, too, is a preposterous notion, never supported in the canon, that any serious reader of the books should immediately see can't be right... and I doubt I have to explain why. The app is full of serious problems of this sort, and I'm certainly not the first to point that out. These problems certainly didn't originate with GRRM. They originated with the app's authors. And there's no walking such issues back via unreliable narration, either, because unlike the canon, and unlike the World book, the app has no narrator. It is purportedly just a collection of simple facts... but I fear, like yolkboy, I know bullshit when I see it.
  2. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    This is quite correct. And it introduces various other issues... For instance, if the ToJ happened soon after the Sack, that means the KG were getting information all along pretty quickly. Because they already, soon after the Sack, know what happened re Jaime, Aerys, etc. Well, if they were getting information quickly, that also means they had plenty of time after the Trident to find out that their liege, to whom they had sworn their vow, was in mortal peril because Robert had won. They would have known Aerys had only one KG (Jaime) to defend him from this mortal peril, and, thanks to Rhaegar's defeat, he had no army. Yet, quite curiously, they did not even try to go to King's Landing as far as we can tell. This should tell us something important about the vow they swore. Again, I have to congratulate you on the accuracy of your analysis. Any time someone says "the fact is that Rhaegar left the ToJ when Aerys had four KG" to defend him? That person is missing the canonical reality... that it is impossible to show Rhaegar was ever at the ToJ. Ever! Even for a moment in his life. At best, you can show, using the canon, that someone told Ned that Rhaegar had named the ToJ. Whether that ever really happened... or where Rhaegar was when it happened... we do not know. Those who maintain we do know Rhaegar was at the ToJ, and when, often resort to the app to justify this idea. But in the same way Aegon is often called fAegon, I'm afraid the app (which GRRM did not write at all) can reasonably be called the fapp.
  3. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    These are all mythical sunken cities/petty kingdoms, and so potentially hit a related topic (rising sea levels). However, I'm looking for something that says, basically, "Once upon a time, this green island we call Britain wasn't an island at all. It was connected to that great big landmass over there where the sun comes up." If this doesn't exist, I wonder if that's because (very unlike Tasmania) Great Britain was subject to numerous waves of invasion, yielding many cultural shifts in every dimension since that point in time some eight thousand years ago... which had the effect of overwriting/polluting such incredibly ancient myths and legends. Tasmania was culturally frozen compared to that. Naturally I like this interpretation, since it implies R+L≠J, and of course you're right about the Starks being connected to Winter in an extraordinary but as yet unrevealed sense. I guess I just think that between the canon... the two fake history novellas... and the lengthy Targ content in the World book, that no human could read without falling into a dead sleep once at least... GRRM has done this particular family more than enough justice already.
  4. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    This reminds me to ask you something -- do you know of any British myths that seem to reflect a time when Great Britain was still connected to Europe (which I think it was until about eight thousand years ago)? I don't know of any, but it seems like an interesting area of inquiry. Which is apparently not what I thought it would be. I had expected, from the Silmarillion-esque working title, that it would be a collection and explanation of ancient myths of Westeros. Well, damn, I would love to read that. And if he doesn't want to write it, I would love to write it as based on his notes. For instance, there is a particular chapter in ADWD in which GRRM slyly inserts references to three different human populations that lived in Westeros before the First Men. Nobody's gonna tell me that's not an interesting area. But now it seems it's going to be all about the Targs and their family history. Well... that's a subject I think will interest GRRM's fans a hell of a lot less than it does today, once the penny drops that Jon isn't any sort of Targaryen and that all their endless "catches" and "finds" on that subject were masterpieces of the imagination. So hopefully, realizing this, he'll rework his plan.
  5. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Yep, that's certainly an interesting possibility and another is that the mass flooding created by melting glaciers circa 10K years ago was the source -- or a source -- of these myths. Australian aboriginal mythology for instance still recalls a time when Tasmania was connected to the mainland, which came to a conclusion around then. But the bottom line is that GRRM was saying "Look, these guys lived thousands of years ago, if they lived at all -- so tread carefully in the conclusions you draw. Times change, stories change, people lie, cultures adapt details to suit their interests."
  6. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Well, of course one can make up any numbers one likes. What I mean is, are you really proposing that the Wall has only existed a thousand years and has only had 98 LCs?
  7. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    How did you arrive at these boldfaced numbers?
  8. Is Barristan Simply Wrong About Meraxes?

    That's absolutely the case... but the World book is fundamentally different from canon in that GRRM has explicitly told us it's full of questionable content that is intended to suit the interests of Robert and his supposed heirs. The author of the World book, Maester Yandel, is a suckup, in other words. For instance, the idea that a Targ dragon was brought down in mid-air via a bolt to the eye would probably please Robert Baratheon, who hated Targs, quite a bit. It's not too surprising to find it in the World book. Barristan Selmy seems more interested in history, though, which is why he tells Dany the truth about her father even though she may not wish to know it. I choose to believe him over Yandel.
  9. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    I think you were right: This is from her POV chapter and I interpret it to mean that she sincerely perceives Stannis as both her king and Azor Ahai, and she is trying via flame visions to find out what's happening to him south of her (since quite unlike the show, Stannis went off without her). And furthermore, she does not perceive Jon as either her king or Azor Ahai.
  10. Is Barristan Simply Wrong About Meraxes?

    That is from canon written by GRRM. That is from non-canon, primarily not written by GRRM.
  11. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Well, the passage is quite a simple one and reads: I think this group can recognize a carved face on weirwood when they see it. Bran, the POV character, certainly can; he's been looking at another face, also carved of weirwood, all his life on the Winterfell heart tree. Now, this particular face is animated and can ask questions and understand answers, etc, but to say that it isn't weirwood and that it is a prisoner seems awfully speculative. It seems to me to be another instance of a carved weirwood face that has special magical properties that transcend the normal ones (which we learn in ADWD are all quite magical anyway). Whether it's just a door or something even more important is an interesting unanswered question, of course. Consider: Maybe the boldfaced is because it's not a skinny faceless weirwood. It's a thick branch of a giant weirwood tree that most certainly does have a face... a face like no other weirwood we've ever seen in canon. We call it the Black Gate. If one had to ask "Why was the Nightfort built on this location, which is oddly somewhat off-center along the length of the Wall, as the first castle of the Watch?" such a tree might provide an interesting answer.
  12. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Sure, this is what I had intended to suggest. If per GRRM the Wall "took thousands of years to be raised to its present height," then clearly it was originally far shorter. You also see this in the tale of the Night's King; if he spied his true love from atop the Wall, and knew her to be attractive, he certainly wasn't standing seven hundred feet above her. Not unless he had military-grade binoculars. Bear in mind that following the Long Night, the First Men all over Westeros would have had an incredible incentive to pool resources and build such a barrier. Half their continent, roughly, had just been devastated. And they would have done it in the narrowest geographical location of the Far North, if they possibly could, to minimize the work and time, because they couldn't know when the Popsicles and wights would be back. They would need to get it done as quickly as they could. Sure enough, that's just what we see on a map. (If the Stark house words stem from the time, I wouldn't be even the least surprised.) The Wall -- even its foundation, meaning the oldest part of it -- is made of blocks. Giants and CotF don't build anything out of blocks; there's no exception anywhere in canon. So the conclusion that men built the Wall isn't much of a leap. As for the Watch, the conventional idea is that it was founded after the Long NIght to man the Wall, but that is not the same as the idea that it built the initial Wall. I think that was a joint effort of the First Men generally, due to their powerful shared incentive. Brandon the Builder, who is said in myth to have built the initial version of the Wall, is not said to have belonged to the Watch. He was, however, the Stark in Winterfell, who gave the Watch the land known as Brandon's Gift. So this suggests, IMO, that it was not simply the Watch building the Wall back then... not by a long shot. However, if the Watch subsequently raised the Wall, as Jeor Mormont tells us, that would have been an incredibly slow process, taking thousands of years. Which is exactly what GRRM says it did take.
  13. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Yes, this is an interesting point. And I also like this a lot better than the B-movie Night's King we got on the show.
  14. Heresy 196 and a look at the Wall

    Eloquent and interesting introductory essay by Lynn S, which can come as no surprise to those who have read her posts over the years. In particular, I think this: ...would make GRRM himself smile. And I think it's beyond serious debate that the Black Gate in particular was the work of the CotF. (Magical face carved into weirwood... come on.) Also: Cleverly said. Now on the subject of how the Wall was built, I also agree in a sense with: It more or less has to be, because of (1) the Black Gate's irrefutable magic, (2) the warding magic as hinted in various ways and explicitly stated by Coldhands, and (3) whatever magic mechanism I choose to believe GRRM included to stop the Wall from collapsing into a big fat mound... which is what a 700-foot wall of ice would inevitably do otherwise because ice lacks adequate strength. However, I do think it was built by men and giants as well (the above magic likely having come from the CotF, and magic not being responsible for most of the physical mass). Why? Two reasons, mainly. The first comes right from GRRM himself: For me, GRRM's very few direct statements on such topics trump any other information or analysis. So I believe the above statement to be both literal and true. This being the case, I also think either: 1. The Wall did not require thousands of years to reach its present height (that is: GRRM is lying), or 2. The magic that built the Wall was the slowest magic the world has ever known, or 3. The Wall took thousands of years to reach its present height because Jeor Mormont was right when he said the First Men made it, and Jon was right when he talked about seeing its "foundation blocks," in ASOS, and thus, men had a lot to do with its construction. Additionally from ASOS, as Jon climbs the Wall, we have this: So there are not only blocks at the foundation, but continually going up. And some of those blocks were laid in an inaccurate way, as if by intoxicated First Men who perhaps weren't paying as much attention as they might have. I suppose it's possible magic created these blocks, but I doubt it. So for me, that's the answer to : 1. I think the CotF supplied the magic properties. 2. As GRRM said outright, the initial version of the Wall then took hundreds of years to complete. And subsequently, 3. it took thousands of years to reach its present height in the form of imperfect blocks, imperfectly laid... and probably not by magic.
  15. Heresy 195 and the Mists of Time

    Well, there is actually no reference to the Nightfort being twice as old as all the other castles. That is just a mistake that is constantly repeated in Heresy, for some reason I've never been able to figure out. What the canon says is much simpler: • The Nightfort was the first castle on the Wall • The Nightfort is twice as old as Castle Black When was the second castle on the Wall built? We don't know. It could have been one year after the Nightfort was built, or fifty years, or five hundred years. We also don't know its name. It's possible it happened that way. What the myths claim, though, is simply that all reference to the Night's King were expunged, and that was that... as opposed to all his predecessors also being expunged. Re the number of LCs Sam found, that's a matter of some debate. A popular idea in Heresy is that the number (674) and the names were just... made up out of thin air by a practical joker or similar. Usually this is justified by saying something like "the list of kings in Britain or Ireland is full of mythical names," and then drawing a parallel. The thing is, kings are heads of state. The whole point of lists like that is to include mythical names to add grandeur to the country -- for instance, the Japanese emperor list starts with gods, and England's list sometimes includes figures from mythology like Brutus, descendant of Aeneas from the Trojan War. Also, these lists are of course made public. That's the whole point: to glorify the country in a way everyone can see. The LC list is a totally different matter. There is no country, and an LC is not a king or head of state, but only an elected commander of a paramilitary body. That's all they've ever been, even in myths. Pretty dull stuff, really. Furthermore, as far as we know, the LC list Sam found has no gods... no mythical figures... nor even any name Sam recognizes from history or legend. It's just an incredibly long list of anonymous names. And finally, the LC list is far from public. It was stashed away in the Castle Black archives, buried as useless trivia like a billion other Watch records, including various other lists Sam found, which seem newer. So if the plan was to glorify the Watch by making up grand mythical names for LCs, that plan obviously totally failed. Either somebody arbitrarily made up 674 anonymous names for no apparent reason... as well as those billion other Watch records Sam also found... or there is some sort of authenticity to it. Sam does, of course, question the content of some of the ancient myths (eg knights riding around when there were no knights). But that is not at all the same thing as Sam believing that the timeline of human presence in Westeros is only two or three thousand years long. This is another idea you often find in Heresy, often stated as if it were a fact, that simply doesn't exist in canon.