Luddagain

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  1. OK I think way back there is a point to the Stark plus dayne+ Valyria or more to the point Dragons. Dragons aka valyria maybe in fact the real Light bringer. Back before the wall there were starks. This we know. There were also wild dragons. My vague theory was that it took the Warging blood (Gene) of the Starks plus the special blood of the people of the Dawn (Dorne) to create the Valyrians ie people who could tame and ride dragons and use them to defeat the others. Significantly too it may take someone of Dornish (Daynish) blood to become the true mother of dragons. i suspect that Dany is either the child of Ashara Dayne and Ned or Rhaella and Arthur Dayne. Jon is the child or Ned and Ashara.
  2. GRRM based much of his story on actual history of the wars of the Roses. In this case the cadet branches DID effectively die out. The Plantagenet had many sons - Edward III had about 8 sons and five daughters but in the end the Throne went to Henry Tudor the whose mother was a descendant of John of Lancaster's bastard sons, legitimised but low in the order of succession (sorta like Jon). These families often did not breed well or sons were lost to war and accident and women to childbirth. Some of the heirs were obviously gay and reluctant to marry. Of course if women were infertile then many a marriage would produce no heirs (eg Henry the VIII). So NO cadet branches is very, very, very possible. Actually i think it is part of the story line - ALL the great houses are failing. Time for renewal. I think EVERY kingdom will be inherited by a bastard (of some kind), or at least people rejected by their fathers. I think it is the story line 1. Stormlands - inherited by Gendry a bastard unknown even to his father, but still with the Baratheon strength (but I suspect his mother may be also an original descendent of the pre Targ family) 2. Westerlands - inherited by Tyrion (or his descendents) bastards in his father's eyes and a very non noble figure. However he too is a throw back I suspect to Lan the clever 3. The Reach - already lost to the original line ie the Gardiners, but probably be inherited by another family reject - Sam Tarly who is already third in line for the throne if you assume that the Tyrells were usurpers in the first place 4. The Vale - probably inherited by a boy who is not really the heir ie son of LF. Another bastard 5. Riverlands - well who is the rightful family - the Mudds probably - Ii suspect a wanderer from the Golden Company will take that crown - Either that or Rickon/Bran. Edmure is a "floppy fish" ie he cannot get it up - Roslin is preganant by a Frey 6. Dorne is complex but I suspect that the Daynes will inherit - possibly married to one of the bastard Martells 7. Iron Islands - inherited by Asha - a girl - pretty out there for these warriors 8. Finally of course Jon Snow, the bastard son to inherit the North
  3. i think there is a very clear assumption that the Royces and the Blackwoods are Old God worshippers. Recall that the FIRST Sept ever built at Winterfell was for Catelyn, so it must be assumed that the various Royce and Blackwood women who married and came North either had no religion or were Old God worshipers. Now we can sort of guess that many if not all the Blackwoods have links to the old Gods and are skin changers, and we NOW know that they were originally a Northern House driven south because of their skin changing. I have always assumed that the Royces, wearing their runes etc also are worshipers of the Old Gods - at least in part. Moreover we know that the extension of the faith of the 7 to Northerners is quite recent, given that Ser Jeor's father and his sisters follow the Old Gods. Indeed I have a vague theory that it was Ned's decision to allow a Sept at Winterfell that allowed the Other to rise again by weakening the power of the Old Gods. Same for any Manderley, except that they are worshipers not exactly of the Old Gods but of one of the First men gods ie Garth Greenhand. This is of course critical to the story line. There are dual elements as in most ancient European religions - Summer and Winter, Spring and fall, Life and death,night and day,and of course ice and fire. Now we see the representations of the ancient themes everywhere in GoT Summer: Bran and his wolf,/Winter: Most of the Starks Summer fertility or the King of Summer: Garth Greenhand (also we know the Manaderlys (who are knights of his order) and I think SAM Jack Frost: aka Jon Snow or the King of Winter
  4. Tmifairy This has been addressed a thousand times. Jon CANNOT be Brandon/Ashara's son given he is roughly the same age as Robb. We are told that he is two months younger than Robb at which time Brandon was rather dead by three months or so when Jon was conceived. Even if you assume that Jon is a month older than Robb are we to believe that Ashara and Brandon were hitting it off in the Riverlands while Brandon and Cat were a courting. Harenhall was at least six months before Ned's marriage so Jon would need to be at lest 6 months older than Robb, which he clearly is not. You can fudge a toddler's age by a nonth or so but certainly NOT 6 months.Why would Ned hide the truth of Jon from Catelyn if this were the case - She may have fancied herself in love with Brandon, but there was no need to say Jon was his. Why hide from Robert
  5. Ashara is not dead. I do not think she is Septa Lemore. i am rather inclined to think she is one of the courtesans - probably the one who hides her face. We know she is very beautiful.
  6. Develish Fully agree We must also recognise that Jon got the idea of joining the NW in the two weeks of the royal visit, when as still just a boy, he realised probably for the first time just how significant a disadvantage being a bastard really was. Sure he knew he was different but up until that time he was always part of the family - seated on the top table. Excluded for the very first time he gets drunk (also for the first time) and we see him crying and realising that he was really not part of the inner crowd. it was in that two weeks that Benjen's idea captures him - a way to make his mark in the world, to rise to a position of power and honour and to please his father. The real issue I think is why Ned agreed. Sure we know that Jon could never go South and needed to be kept clear of Robert (or some other enemy unknown). We know Ned loved Jon form his POV in the dungeon. Ned clearly understood that Jon would not be happy with Cat at Winterfell. The Starks have long had a tradition of honouring and serving at the Wall so it was not the strange choice many in the South would find it. However it does seem to me that Ned could have sent Jon for say four years to the Manderlys, Cerwyns, or Glovers allowing him time to consider his future when a little older.
  7. There are the odd hints about Robb but I agree not strong. Bran's scene in the weirwood I think can be interpreted in a way that implicates Robb just as much as Jon and I think that the Lady Dustin exchange is also a broad hint (possibly too broad) in the direction of Brandon and Cat getting together early. I do not necessarily think Cat lied except to herself. She may not actually have been fully aware she was indeed pregnant, and possibly not fully aware she had even lost her virginity - especially if she had been drinking a bit. The timelines are a total mess of confusion re all the various births and so we cannot really say anything about who was born when and where. What we are told and seems to be assured (there are plenty who argue otherwise) that Robb is say 2 months older than Jon (cannot be much more). If Jon is the child of Lyanna and Reaegar born at the end of the war, then yes you can say for sure that he was conceived say 2 moths after the war started and that Robb was conceived at the very beginning of the war and thus MUST be Ned's son. However the moment you consider that Jon really is Ned's son then you have NO exact time about his conception. He could have been born any time from say 8-11 months into the way and thus conceived from 1 month before to two months into the war, meaning that Robb was conceived any time up to 3 months before the war. Recall that the two babies/toddlers were relocated to Winterfell probably at about 1 year of age. No body would have been too precise about the exact location of all the parties 9 moths before conception. Had Catelyn travelled North with a tribe of Ladies in Waiting, nursemaids etc I could easily accept that you could not fudge the birth dates etc. but we have no evidence of any such retinue. We are looking at a time of 4-12 weeks between Brandon being last at Riverrun and Ned marrying Cat. Now covering up a 4 week "premature" birth is easy and has been done a million times in our real world. 8 weeks is difficult but not impossible. 12 weeks i accept would be very difficult. Mind you we also have a conflict re lady Dustin's story and timelines, since she wanted to marry Brandon but would have made do with Ned. However she already had a husband who went South with Ned, although he was not yet married. Either there is something fishy or GRRM made a glitch
  8. Moon Nearly ALL the noble bastards grew up with friends and family and were well educated. Sure they might be fostered out and in any case EVERY noble boy was usually fostered out at about age 7/8 as pages and then squires. Generally while young they would stay with their mother's family perhaps but when older they would be sent out as pages or squires as the father sought fit. Of course there would be a difference - a legitimate boy would usually go to a great Lord etc while a bastard may need to serve a lesser knight or perhaps another bastard. However they would receive education and training as befitted the son of a noble. Exceptions are the disasters like Ramsay Snow. Recall the bastard son of the Bracken who seemed to be treated like a son and mourned etc. What about the great bastards - Bloodraven and of course Daemon -hardly non educated. GRRM based his novel very much on what WAS normal behaviour in royal and noble courts in medieval Europe. Bastard kids were kept amongst the royals and educated in the same way. Often other noble an semi noble kids would also be educated in this way - eg the sons of stewards or knights in court. There are plenty of examples of bastards raised at court. In Winterfell you see Jeyne Poole being educated alongside Sansa and Arya and this would be the expected course for most young bastards - male or female. The difference between Jon and other bastards was that he seemed to have no mother's family, so essentially Ned had no choice BUT to bring him to Winterfell. Cat should have understood that. A-motherless child needs at least ONE parent. I can see NO excuse for her being unkind to Jon while a young child. Perhaps when Jon was 7/8 or so, Ned should have fostered him out - perhaps with Jon Arryn but possibly as a bastard he could not have looked so high. The Cerwyns or Manderlys perhaps. However even by that time Cat should have realised than Jon and Robb were good friends and a good influence on each other. Only a fool of a mother would break up such a solid bond between boys, even if you hated the bastard. Look at the damage done to Robb by the other boy that Robb trusted - Theon. Of course we can all guess that there was some secret about his parentage that meant that Ned had to keep Jon close by and probably not in the South. The real question is just why did Ned not trust Catelyn with that secret. Something in HER nature meant that Ned could not trust her.
  9. It is always a good idea with GRRM to read the books and pick up all the clues, Try these: 1. as noted above Ned called Cat cruel - He would not have done this if it were an unexpected or uncommon reaction. Her hatred clearly shone through. 2. Cat hardened against the very name of Jon and it was clear from Ned'd reaction that this was a long standing and expected reaction 3. Robb EXPECTED Cat to be cruel to Jon when he went to visit Bran, and was relieved when Jon lied and said cat was kind to him. Thus obviously Cat's unkindness was sufficiently commonplace for a 14 yer old boy to notice 4. We are told that Jon felt as if Cat begrudged him food 5. We are told she was always unhappy (this is how Jon felt) when he bested Robb at anything. Actually this one I can forgive - pretty natural mother's reaction, although a well bred lady might try to hide it.
  10. Ned made a foolish (perhaps he was forced with few options) decision to go south. Taking Sansa was sensible and she was keen to go. Bran was also to go - he was keen like any small boy in love with knights etc. Why he chose to take Arya is unclear but I suspect HE understood that leaving her behind with just Catelyn was not good for her and he perhaps grasped that hers was a personality that needed careful attention - the wolf blood and he needed to protect her as best he could. Cat could not do that, because while Ned saw that Arya was very much like Lyanna, for Cat Arya was a strange unruly girl. Arya was however dragged unwillingly from Winterfell.
  11. The tress No I am fairly convinced re Robb being Brandon's son. The timing and the dates fit MUCH better and it explains Ned's behaviour. We KNOW Brandon was a loose screw and had no qualms about taking a girl's virginity (at least if we believe lady Dustin) so I cannot see why we would not assume he would take liberties with Catelyn. She adored him. The tully girls seemed to have no chaperone. We sort of know that Ned was in love with Asahra Dayne, otherwise why hush the story of Jon so very, very much. Somehow i find it hard to believe that Ned married Catelyn while still in love with another, unless there was very, very good cause. Her pregnancy seems a probable one.
  12. Sunland No Cat is not the most selfish woman at all and by no means is she truly bad (Lady Stonehart is pretty name nasty), however not is she a truly good character. at times she is wise but often she is stupid. The way to judge whether someone is selfish or not is to weigh up acts of kindness versus those of unkindness and then reach a consclusion. 1. Towards Jon she was unquestionably cruel (Ned's words) 2. She was a little cruel towards arya 3. she was a little cruel towards Rickon - sure under great stress but still! On the other hand we see her 1. Being kind to Brienne 2. Being kind to her father 3. Loving Ned and her children On balance I think she comes out as basically a kind character. but still flawed. She is certainly not the most selfish woman in westeros. However she is certainly NOT particularly emotionally stable 1. Her reaction to Bran's injury 2. Her insane handling of Tyrion 3. Her release of Jaime 4. Her final act of slitting the throat of jinglebells. 5. Her personality as Stoneheart i think we can sort of see where the girls get some aspects of their personality- Arya's vengefullness is pure Cat, Sansa's obsession with being a Lady and her self centredness is also pretty much from Cat.
  13. Catelyn was foolish, and selfish and overly ambitious. I am tired of hearing all this Ned and bastards stuff. There were LOTS of bastards in great houses - Joy Hill, Freys a plenty and of course Dorne. 1. Sure MOSTLY young bastards live with their mothers for obvious reasons, but when the mother is also dead this is not a practical reality. 2. Being raised in a castle is not the same as being placed in a bedroom next door and having to have regular daily contact with a bastard child - to wipe their bum and wash their clothes. She would not have needed to spend more than 1/2 an hour in Jon's company. Cat was expected just to be kind towards Jon ie not cruel. to smile if he did something cute, to not be too overt about her preference for her own kids and to make him feel welcome. Sort of like we all parents do when a visitor comes to stay - might be a friend of your kid or a relative etc. Now most of us despise the parent who favours their own child overtly in such situations - we generally assume the mother spoils her own kid and will raise a super brat. 3. There is a NORTHERN or at least stark tradition of bastards being raised at Winterfell eg Lonnel Snow and Brandon Snow. Cat would have been told this 4. There is another factor strongly hinted at but perhaps not known to Cat, but it somehow seems essential for Northern bastards to be acknowledged by their fathers very early. It may somehow be linked to the weirwoods and the Others. Note Craster and his abhorrence of bastards - Incest OK but not bastards. I am sure this is a factor that explains Ned'd insistence on rearing Jon himself. 5. No matter what way you look at it Cat was cruel and mean to Jon. Sorry but to treat a CHILD in that way is unforgivable. It literature we often hear the horrid tales of Stepmothers/guardians mistreating their step children and we hate the step mother. Cinderella, Snow white,and Jane Eyre all spring to mind. Stop and think a second. Just imagine that your partner had a bastard child aged perhaps seven. The child may have been conceived as a short term fling before your marriage or during perhaps a quarrel or even just a drunken night out. The mother was dead. Perhaps your husband arranges for the child to be reared by a maternal grandmother but she is too old or is sick for a while. The child comes to stay. It is Xmas and you are handing out gifts to the children. Do you ignore the bastard child or give him a gift way inferior to the one your son of the same age receives? Do you prevent him joining the family around the Xmas tree? Do you encourage your eldest daughter to be rude to him? Do you give him smaller portions of food? I certainly hope NOT, but that is what Cat does. There is NO moral justification for blaming the child. This was the land where ALL marriages were arranged. There were very few love matches. As it happens I have an ex sister in law in a somewhat similar situation. I used to be really fond of her but she like Cat apparently ignored and was cold towards her partners very young child. Her behaviour was unforgivable. No ifs no buts. Just mean and cruel. 6. Finally I am betting that Cat hated Jon because deep in her heart she knows that Robb is also a bastard in that he is Brandon's son.
  14. I have been doing a slow and occasional re-read and just this morning one line from Ned while in the dungeon sort of confirmed what I have been thinking for a while. Ned hated or feared Catelyn. It was pretty hidden from view by GRRM because Ned was thinking painfully of his girls. Then it says when he thinks of Catelyn it is a bed of nettles. now when we first read it we think he is in pain for his love of her but then again!! We already have him asking her why she is so cruel.(back in Winterfell re Jon) Hated is too strong but he certainly had some issues with her. I recall the very first time we have them together near the heart tree, He addresses her as "My Lady". Not too warm a greeting after 16 years of marriage. Not "my dear," or Cat or Catelyn. Cat always thinks of him as Ned.
  15. It seems to me that there are many possible "blue eyed kings" Stannis - but not sure about no shadow Jon, but it would require him being a wight Bran - he will not walk. What sword will he wield - the Original Ice? or perhaps a dragon Euron -hate the idea but it assumes the red sword is pretty evil - possible Cold hands - he may be someone significant, probably casts no shadow and has blue eyes. possibly he is the night King The re-energised Night king