Luddagain

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  1. Crowfood daughter Yes all those Bael names relate to Beli etc - but of course so do the twin gods/heroes Balin and Balon who are middle ages personification of ancient deities ie the twin gods Beli and Bali (not sure of the second namel) but Beli was the father of Danu and also I think Arianhod. There is obviously a resemblance to the Latin word for war and also the concept of the twin gods found throughout Europe - Castor and Pollux. GRRM being GRRM I feel sure that these references are not accidental. From what I have read there is a sun god/sea god sort of association and also that threesome - sky, sea underworld - Zeus, Poseidon, Hades or in Celtic mythology. Gwyn ap Nudd is the son of Nudd (Llud) and is the ruler of the faery folk/underworld - also the white god. Both Jon and Bran seem to fit this character although the white connection points at Jon. He is the ruler of the "other world." He also loved his sister. He is the leader of the wild hunt with a pack of dogs. It is NOT the same to equate this character with Hades, but there is still an element of it - caves/weirwoods, Odin etc There are several sea gods in Welsh legend - Manawaden who is linked by name and family to the sea god Lir and is similar in parts to his Irish counterpart ManannĂ¡n, although they are also different. Based on the name alone I see Mance in this role and I see him as probably a Stark (son of Rodrick the wandering wolf ??????). Manawaden marries Rhiannon the horse goddess who loses or has a son stolen - (Mance could perhaps be the stolen son??????) or conceivably this is Jon with Lyanna as parents as mother. Lyanna is very definitely a Rhiannon type figure. Brandon has the personality of the missing son Pryderi - perhaps GRRMis giving a wave to FAegon too - who is very, very Pryderi like in his tale. Lyr is another Sea god but not much is known of him. The word means sea. He is the father of Bran the Blessed, Manawadyn and Branwen and possibly Rhiannon Dylan the son of Arianh=rhod is a sea "god" and his brother Lleu a classic sun god. Again I see the two babies - Mances and Gillie's in these roles.
  2. [probably has a relationship with her brother and bore twins - one a sun god and the other a sea god(Gwidion and Dylan)I quite like the Iron Island as Fomorian idea BUT there are a lot of people with Balor in the name - Baelor, Baelish and Bael the Bard. Definitely NOT accidental but I am not sure of the connection. Bael was not so much a king as a terrible warrior with a medusa eye ie turn you to stone. Mind you there is an obvious connection with Beli the war god (and presumably even the Roman "bellus" - war and of course the many words about anger and fighting that stem, While Irish legend is important I believe it is WELSH legend that is more important, especially in the North and probably in Dorne. There is of course a lot of overlap between the two. We have for example clear Arthurian references in the Daynes but take a look at the two key mystical Starks - Barn and Arya. Ban is named after the mythical hero Bran who became a para/quadriplegic after some battle (to rescue his sister Bronwen - Jon ref too?)) and stayed on living and giving advice to warriors for many years. He is associated with ravens and indeed the name means raven (Irish too). The second reference is Aria and she shares quite a lot of similarity with Arianrhod the goddess who gives birth to twins - a sea god and a sun god (Dylan and Lleu). There is a clear suggestion this was based on an affair with her brother Gwydion. She seems to be associated with death and reincarnation which is very Aria like. Her name means Silver wheel which may be a moon reference and according to one (very unreliable) source she is a moon goddess. To the extent that we associate characters with ancient deities I also feel that if the lords of the houses in the south are associated with various Germanic gods (Anglosaxon and Viking) three other Starks Ned, Robb and Sansa seem to represent the three hostage Vanir gods -Nudd, Fryr (lord) and Freya (lady). These three went south and only Freya survived. Catelyn has parallels with Skadi who marries Nudd almost by mistake thinking it was Baldur the beautiful (bit like the Brandon and Ned story).
  3. Crowfoot I am not so sure that the Merlin King and the Drowned god are one and the same - hence the connection with the iron born is not so clear. I am on record many times as saying that I think that each of the houses/people are associated with ancient BRITISH deities and that at least when he started GRRM as telling the tale of Rajnarok. The Southern Kingdoms (or their chief houses) represent the gods of the Romanised Anglosaxons/Vikings who settled the British isles with the seven houses associated with the seven gods associated with the seven planetary bodies, Thus: Stormlands = Thor with his hammer and Robert is a decidedly Thor like personality (Jupiter the father and thunder god). Before the Andals the first man god would have been the STORM god Westerlands= Tyw god of justice and war. Like Tyr Jaime had his hand bitten off. Mars god of war). but there is also a Nuada overlap) so some sort of warrior god - Nuada silver hand I assume, given Jaime's story The Vale = Mani the mood GOD. They were the first to join the Targs and also the first day of the week. Dorne = Sol the sun. They were the last to join the Targs and are the last day of the week The reach and the Riverlands BOTH seem associates with fertility and plenty and therefore with the GODDESS Freya (Venus as the planet). However the more ancient Garth Greenhands is very strong here too. the connection with Freyr and Freya (vanir gods held captive by Asgard) is strong This leaves two planets or Romanised gods Wodin and he who is not named (Saturn) and two Kingdoms as part of the IT. The drowned god seems a pretty good fit with the dark and nasty god of Saturday which in some part is not named. The Germanic god associated with Saturday and the roman Saturn and the planet is probably Loki. The Odin/woden similarities with Blood raven are so obvious that it barely needs repeating. However it is not quite clear if they are Andal ie Riverland gods or something older ie from the North. Once again since we can safely assume GRRM knows more about Nordic (and probably celtic) mythology that any of the rest of us mere mortals - he studied it an Uni- we can also not the similarities between the character of Odin/Woden and also the Celtic (ie first man) stories of Merlin or indeed other modern "wizards" Gandalf and Dumbledore who like Odin and Merlin combine warrior skills, great wisdom and extremely strong magic. Initially this was confusing because BR was of the Riverlands, but the WOIF book has made it clear that the Backwoods and hence BR is originally Northern, or perhaps is an amalgam of all - the Old gods of the North and CoF (weirwoods), the Celtic god of the Fist men eg Merlin and the Odin god of the underworld and also magic and wisdom of the Andals. This Odin/Wodin is the North which is entirely consistent with the good/bad living/dead/ underworld and normal world, Summer/winter that seems to hang about the Starks.
  4. I think we will find that Garth Greenhand has a direct descendent who will be very important to the final story. Like the Manaderlys this Garth descendent is overweight called the whale but is also smart, brave in an unconventional way and very, very loyal. That is what characterises the order of the green hand. Ser Samwell Tarly will become a member of this order. He is after all probab;ly the rightful heir (after his Mum and one cousin to the Reach.
  5. I think you MUST understand the Mandelys and Gardiners (and the Storm god and drowned god) in the context of the first men and the pact. and GRRMs familiarity with the ancient religions of the British Isles. The old gods are ancient animistic gods ie the trees and the animals, life and death, rivers and hills. These are the god/spirits of the first inhabitants of Britain (and Europe). The Green man is a very real ancient spirit often carved rather inappropriately in old churches in Britain. He was a benevolent sort of god and much loved. The Merling King is another rather more recent British spirit and obviously has a name to reflect the wizardry of King Arthur's court ie Merlin. The ancient sea god of the Celts was MANawading and clearly there is a sea association with the Manderlys. Note their symbol is the trident which of course is also Poseidon and Neptune. Fighting with the Peaks is a good catch as is the excellent comment re "Dustinbury" . Throw in the Storm God and the drowned god and you sort of have Zeus, Poisidon, Hades and Demeter or Gaia (a man in this case). The Celtic Equivalents are Danu (mother), Ludd/Nudd and Manawading. are the later more sophisticated versions of these nature spirits (Dany, Ned and Mance???????).
  6. Of course it could have been Cersai but why kill Bran!!!!!! He was not a threat to her or her children. She is stupid and vengeful but she had not reason to particularly dislike Catelyn. Possibly Ned but why pick on Bran? Also she would have used poison or some other less clear cut means of killing him. No the stabbing was stupid, amateurish and poorly managed. This is much more like a child eg Joffrey that Cersai or LF. LF was manoeuvring to get Ned and Cat to KL. This we KNOW since he killed Jon Arryn. He must have had some half formed plan to injure Ned - perhaps he STILL thought of marrying Cat. To do this the girls are no problem nor is Robb since he is heir to Winterfell and would stay in the North. Cat's attachment to Bran could have prevented a remarriage. That is motive enough. Recall that LFis by his own words an opportunist he has vague plans but always seizes an opportunity when it presents itself. His only weakness seems to be Catelyn and then Sansa. He NEVER marries - why not - he has become rich and their would be girls of reasonable birth and good looking a plenty for him now. However he does not marry until AFTER Catelyn is dead. Then at the first chance he shoves his wife out the moon door and starts chasing Sansa.
  7. Jeepers Write your own books and stop twisting GRRM. Mance is scared of the OTHERS and seeks support. LF has not got a clue about them or is one of them. Stabbing Bran was cooked up by LF along with Joffrey. The issue is why and how? The why I think is because of his hatred of Ned and Catelyn. His spies would have told him that Catelyn loved Bran above all others, so killing him was pay back. He also wanted to pry Catelyn out of Winterfell and Bran would be key to that. The how - well he would have had time for a raven or two and he would certainly have had two-five spies marching with Robert and some at Winterfell itself. He need only have put the thought into Joffrey's head - better off dead etc. Show strength - Ned and daddy are weak etc .
  8. WWF By today's standards Bran would be a wheelchair athlete and riding a tank to battle, but in GRRM's medieval world a paraplegic cannot lead a war band. Now personally I think Bran would (will?) make a fine ruler but I was just listing all the claimants and the possible supporters/detractors.
  9. Pck There are in fact MANY claimants to the North each with armies to back them 1. A child of Jeyne Westerling - support from Lannisters and the IT and most of the South. The vale would also support such a child eg Blackfish 2. Bran - the legitimate heir if their is no child by Jeyne, HOWEVER by Celtic tradition (which is pretty much how GRRM sees the North, a severely disabled child cannot inherit. He would probably have the support of Bloodraven and perhaps some in the riverlands and a few Northern Lords but not too many 3. Rickon - the choice obviously of the Manderlys and his Northern friends 4. Ramsay - supposedly married to Arya - his claim is strong assuming that Bran and Rickon are dead 5. Sansa - supported by the Vale and of course LF in the absence of a child by Jeyne. Lady Stoneheart will support this claim - she loves LF 6. The descendant of Edwin Stark's sister - who I think will prove to be a FREY once of the descendants of Perra Royce who was probably the third daughter - the one Catelyn could not remember who she married. - So many Freys are dead or soon to die - probably killing each other so the one likely to succeed is unclear but Black Walder is my bet as he will kill his brother Edwyn. Other possible heirs are young Byran, young Steffon, two young girls (walda and Perra) and three young Vances 7. Real Arya - not married to anyone 8. Jon Snow - obviously supported by Stannis and the NW and the Mormants. Strongly opposed by the Vale and Blackfish 9. Decedents of older Starks - especially Rodrik (who may be alive anyway along with his daughters, one of whom is of course Grandma). My guess is they they will support Rickon or Jon (or a regency between the two so that Jon can keep his vows but still manage the North) 10. The return of the descendants of the exiles who refused to bend the knee to dragons
  10. Robb will have cast his will in this way if he was sensible and well advised.: 1. I name any child of mine via Jeyne Westerling/Starkas my immediate heir. 2. I name Maester Luwin and Jon Snow/Stark as joint regents for any underage heir. (I think after the release of Jaime, Robb could not have named Catelyn as there would have been too much resentment) 3. In the my death and their being no living heir via Jeyne I name my sister Arya Stark as heir provided she is found alive within X years of the my death or that of any of my children AND provided she is still unwed and able to return to Winterfell 4. The same regency conditions apply to Arya until she reaches the age of 16 5. I exclude my sister Sansa Lannister and her heirs from succession to the position as Lord of Winterfell or King in the North 6. In the event that I have no living heirs and Arya Stark is not alive or able to return to Winterfell I name Jon Stark as heir to the kingdom in the North. There would be a separate decree legitimizing Jon
  11. Doctor's consort Yes of course I am and it is blindingly obvious. Stannis may win the IT eventually (or possibly part of it). However he only has Shireen as heir and she is not likely to live a long time. He may well marry her to her cousin Edrik in the hopes of an heir but if this fails stannis is a stickler for the rules and he will favour the oldest of Robert's bastard (males) who is Gendry. Recall that Stannis made Davos a knight and his hand. He has faults but he can recognise strength, honour, loyalty and integrity regardless of birth. Recall how he reacted to Renley!!!. If the bastards are legitimised then Stannis would make Gendry his heir. It is central to his personality and core beliefs.
  12. I do not think we really know what Sansa's future will be. Indeed I think that like Jon and Robb she will have to make a choice between honour or her personal interests. It will probably involve sweet Robin. There are signals for her being honourable and brave and others signalling coldness and self interest. I do not know which path GRRM intends for her. I think she will need a wolf!!!! to allow return to home and family (and goodness/honour)
  13. Arya of course could well end up sitting on the IT. I think she may well marry Gendry who has the strongest claim to the throne (after Dany). Or to be more precise Targaryan heir is Dany and possibly other unknown Targs such as Aerion's son and the slow witted girl and possibly any heirs of Duncan and Jenny of Oldstones (who could of course INCLUDE the Starks) The Baratheon heirs are obviously first Shireen, then Gendry, then Edrik, then Mya (assuming bastards get legitimised. Stannis would NOT care about birth status but he would care about birth order. So Arya/Gendry match would see her on the IT.
  14. Seems to me pretty obvious that Arya will in some way parallel Nymeria - her wolf and she called herself Nan at one stage - short for Nymeria. My own idea (maybe a bit fan fic) is that she WILL lead people home but in this case it will be Northern Wildings escaping slavery - the ones captured that Jon could not rescue. She may well bring other escaped slaves too. I suspect she will lead the Company of the Rose home to the North. If she follows the pattern of Nymeria she will marry three times and produce heirs. She is already a person of sexual interest to three - Gendry, Edrik and Jon.
  15. One of the problems about all this targ/Stark mix up is that the houses have been around a long time and there is plenty of Targ/Stark blood flowing in every vein. I DO think Tyrion is a dragon rider or dragon tamer but that does NOT mean that he is the son of Aerys. How about Joanna his mother. Plenty of scope for a targ grandmother/great grandmother etc. there was probably a reason why Aerys was chasing her in the first place. I am fairly convinced that BOTH warging ability AND dragon riding are passed down via the MOTHER or perhaps that the ability to skin change (or bond with dragons) is passed down via the mother but the father gets to decide the animals with which they bond. Another way is that the ability to skin change requires a recessive gene- double dose, so BOTH parents must carry this recessive gene. A distant targ great grandmother of both Tywin and joanna would allow Tyrion to carry just this gene -linked almost certainly with the similar recessive gene for dwarfism (not the same but closely con-located).