Luddagain

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  1. There is other other possibility Not a female but definitely a new age sensitive type who has if you like been "born again" at he wall. He is a Florent too and indeed is next but one to being the Florent heir and indeed probably the rightful heir to Garth Greenhand (after his mother). Indeed I think Sam is the reincarnation of Garth Greenhand, just as Bran is the reincarnation of Bran the Builder, Jon (or Dany) of Azzor Azzai and someone the last hero (my guess is Benjen)
  2. I am NOT sure that the Manderlys are Andal. They seem to PRECEDE them and to be connected with Garth Gardner. Also they are the navy.
  3. In medieval times most young Lords did have their own personal badge or sigil. After all if brothers were in the same tourney they would need something to distinguish themselves. They would give their particular badge to their personal servants and if relevant their armies. I think we see it all the time - the green apple fossoways, white direwolf, black dragon/red dragon, black fish, the three Ryswell brothers with different colour horses. The most obvious from history is the white and red roses of the two Plantagenet branches - York and Lancaster. It seems to me that if Robb chose a snarling head (did he - is it in the books?) Jon a white direwolf, I think Rickon would have a black wolf. Bran as the son to inherit perhaps will just keep Ned's. Somehow I rather like the idea of Arya's being just as she suggested - a wolf with a fish in its mouth.
  4. It seems as if a manticore in GRRM's world is a giant scorpion and thus house Qorgyl with whom Oberyn has a connection. So we could assume that the third beast is Oberyn/Dorne. Which makes sense . Dragon (Aegon), Griffin (Connington), Sand snakes.
  5. Flicked back here via a link and it is a great discussion Certainly the ROYCES are important and somehow linked to the North and the first men. Note the number of Royces in the Stark geneology. Also note the similarity of NAMES (GRRM is a name o philiiac ie they always mean something). Essentially in Welsh the names Reece and Royce are THE SAME just as in Welsh Brandon and Bryndnen are essentially the same name. However the connection to the word Royal also should not be ignored. So who uses the name Reece (Royce) - never the Starks it seems - instead it is Dustins and Ryswells and Boltons. Somehow I think we are missing a whole idea here - the Dustins and the Boltons are implacably opposed to the Starks. I think that they are NOT part of the pact. Rather their loyalty is lie Craster's to the "others. Lady Dustin is a Ryswell and her role is confused.
  6. Reposing this since yet another "who are the babies" topic The problem with most of these theories is that you need to get the ages to match. Sure one a kid is 15 or so you can conceal ages but it is much, much harder when a child is young. A baby has key milestones - crawling, walking, talking, first teeth etc up until losing baby teeth at 7 and also puberty.. The young the child the harder it is to mix up aged by years or months. There are a number of children with uncertain parentage (mother or father or if they exist at all) in rough order of ages as we are informed. Real Aegon Fake Aegon Ashara's stillborn child Robb Jon Lyanna's child Wylla's child Gendry Dany Rhaella's child born at Dragonstone Wylla of the Manderleys Ned Dayne So let us look at the facts and ages as we know them. First (R)Aegon - he was supposedly conceived at Harrenhall (but it is not absolutely clear) but what we do know is that when the war was over he was still a babe in arms able to be "switched" which means a child of say 15 moths or less. That fits with Harrenhall. This would make him 15.5 -16 when the story starts. Since he was still a baby we have no idea what he looked like and who his real parents may be. Possibilities are Rhaegar and Elia or Elia and anyone else (Brandon???), or Ashara and Rhaegar or Ashara and Aerys or Ashara and Ned or Brandon. Second (F)Aagon who of course may well be real Aegon What we know of him is that he clearly has strong Targ blood so we can assume that his mother or father were Targs or Blackfyres. If he is the Real Aegon then any of the parent combinations that include Rhaegar or Aerys are possible. He seems to be about a year too young to be the Real Aegon, but at 16/17 this can easily be mistaken. Options if he is not real include: Rhaegar and Lyanna Illyrio and Saera Third Ashara Dayne's "still born" daughter. Possibilities are endless - she could indeed have died, she could have been swapped with Elia's dead child, he/she could have been smuggled from KL to protect him/her from Aerys. The father we assume was at Harrenhall. What we know is that any such child has to be roughly the same age as Aegon ie 15.5-16 years when the book started. This more or less rules out Jon and Dany. Jon grew up with Robb who we know to still be 14.75. Jon arrived at Winterfell still with a wet nurse, which suggests he was younger than 1 year. Robb arrived with Catelyn a few months afterwards. At that age you CANNOT fudge whole years. You might get away with 1-2 moths but even that is hard. Just about EVERY woman can pick a baby's age down to a month or so so a child that was supposedly 9 months cannot in ANY way be confused with one who is actually 15 moths and certainly not with one of 18-21 months. Only if Jon and Robb arrived at Winterfell as say 2 year olds could you realistically hide an age swap of 6 months, let alone 9 months. The comment above re 7 month olds being confused is laughable. Ruling Dany out is a little harder because she is thirteen when we meet her and did not live with a servant or person who saw her grow etc. However we know she has lived with Viserys for many years and it would be hard to substitute a child with an 8/9 year old boy around. We know there was a child born at Dragonstone so if it were Ashara's STILLBORN daughter it could not have been Dany, since even an 8 year old Viserys could tell the difference between a newborn and a 1 year old. Similarly you do not mix up a thirteen year old girl with a 16 year old - or more to the point when Dany was supposedly 10 and living with Viserys you could not mix up a supposedly ten year old with a thirteen year old. When we meet her she is supposedly 13 and we know she still has a very slight figure - small breasts etc. She is still very clearly a child. She is NOT 16. (Please do NOT think of the movie Dany - just GRRM's story). Also Dany is clearly a Targ so her parents must be at least one of either Rhaegar, Aerys or Rhaella or some unknown Blackfyre). So if the child of Ashara was not Dany or Jon he/she could be Real Aegon swapped with Elia's dead child. - This is my preferred option One other very unlikely possibility is that this baby was the child of ROBERT and Ashara and possibly therefore Gendry. We are told he is 14 when we meet him but he is a very big lad, so conceivably he is a 16 year old. However we more or less get the sense that he is still a very green boy and behaves much more like a 14 year old who has just reached puberty than a 16 year old. Edrik Dayne is much too young to be this child. Fourth I have listed Robb as having uncertain parentage because as in today's world a child conceived on a wedding night is always just a tad suspect in terms of paternity. Obviously his mother is Catelyn. Obviously his father is a Stark (the direwolf). He could be the child of Brandon or Ned (or Rickard or Rodrick of Benjen - but rather silly idea). I opt for Brandon because of the timing and because it would really explain Catelyn's fear and hatred of Jon. it is even possible that Catelyn herself is not fully aware of who the father is- she was pretty young and there did not seem to be any older women in her life as a girl who could have told her a thing or three. The Tully girls seemed to have been unchaperoned or else the Petyr/ Lyssa thing would not have happened. It would also explain why Ned married her despite his love for Ashara. It would be a neat contrast to Robb who sort of did the same thing - but risked his throne in so doing. Hoster Tully would have known. All of Brandon's companions are dead and there did not seem to be any wise/gossipy old ladies brought from Riverrun to Winterfell who might tutt-tutt over the birth dates and Robb's "prematurity." Born in the middle of a war, not too many would bother or care to consider if Robb was born 33 or 40 weeks after the wedding night. Possibly not even Catelyn. Ned being Ned would have believed that Brandon' s son was the rightful heir anyway, so he would treat Robb as his son. Fifth is Jon and he is the super mystery boy. All we KNOW for absolute sure is that ONE of his parents was a Stark and that he was born roughly 10-11 months after the war started and probably is one-three months younger than Robb or possibly one-3 months older (any more you could not fake). Since HE believes his nameday is a month of so after Robb's we have to assume it is so. However they must be very, very close, given both boys are 14 when we meet them and Jon turns 15 about 2 months after we meet him. Given Brandon and Rickard were dead, his parents must be Ned, Benjen or Lyanna (or Rodrick and an unknown Stark). What these birthdates suggest is that Jon was conceived very, very close to the time Robb was conceived. We are talking within four weeks of Ned's marriage or if my Brandon plus Cat = Robb theory is right, Jon was conceived BEFORE Ned married Catelyn. Possibilities: Ned plus Ashara - assumes that Ashara was NOT in KL when the war broke out but was really in the Vale. It also assumes that she did not have a living child with her or at least not breastfeeding a child) - so her stillborn child was indeed dead or handed to someone else. Yes there is of course plenty of time for there to be TWO children from Ashara- one about 15 months when the second was born. actually a very common time difference for the era (and our own - my brother and sister for example). Wylla could indeed have been her wet nurse if the first child was indeed alive. Ned would have conceived Jon BEFORE he married. Indeed it is possible that Ashara was the "fisherman's daughter" helping to smuggle Ned home to call his banners. Under this scenario Ned would have married Ashara (via the Heart tree).. He may have believed her dead when he went on to marry Catelyn. This is one helluva good reason for hiding Jon's parentage from Catelyn. Rhaegar plus Lyanna - they were together we are told and the timeline sort of fits although assuming Lyanna died in chilbed her baby seems just a fraction too young to be Jon, assuming he is almost Robb's age. Lyanna and Aerys - horrid though it might be, it is possible that Aerys kidnaped Lyanna Lyanna and Mance - it is a bit of a stretch but fits with the Bael the Bard meme. Ned plus the unknown Wylla or fisherman's daughter. Not really very much like Ned to impregnate someone he did not love, but I guess even he was young and hot blooded once. Sixth is Lyanna's child. Obviously one possibility is Jon Seventh is Wylla's child. We know Wylla is real- a nurse maid at Starfell. She may indeed be Jon's mother but more likely she is a wetnurse hired to take care of Lyanna's child OR Jon, whoever his mother was. However who ever she is her NAME s significant. We see it with the Manderly girl - NOT an accident I suspect. We also are told that Wylla was the mother of Lonnel SNOW another bastard Stark. Perhaps it is a generic name like Snow - for the mother of any Stark bastard. Or maybe it was the name of Lyanna;s handmaiden who may have been travelling with her- she too may have been raped following the "kidnap" Eighth is Gendry. The likely explanation is he is the son of Robert and a whore or serving girl. However the possibility of him being the son of Lyanna remains or indeed yet another child of Ashara via Robert or ???? Stannis.. Ninth is Dany. Possibilities already listed are that she id Lyanna's child by Rhaegar but she is a little young. She may indeed be who we are told she is. The child of Aerys and Rhaella. What we know is that she has dragon blood, so at least one of her parents was a dragon. Given she is the MOTHER of dragons i am willing to bet that her mother was a dragon. However she reminds Barristan of ashara. There are other possibilities: all we need is the daddy and mummy together at the time of the sack. so we have Aerys and Lyanna, Aerys and Ashara, Rhaegar and Ashara, Rhaella and Arthur Dayne, Rhaella and Tywin, Rhaella and Ned, Ashara and Ned (but no dragon blood), Rhaegar and Rhaella (yuck) Tenth is Rhaella's child - which sort of means Dany. Unless Rhaella and Ashara did a swapsies - which is very possible. Thus it was Ashara who died on Dragonstone. However Viserys would have known his mother so unlikely Eleven is Wylla of the Manderlys who really only gets a mention because her age and name seems significant Finally at 12 we have Ned Dayne. He is much too young to be the child of Lyanna who was dead or Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne (unless still alive). He COULD be the child of Ned and Ashara but it would not have been Ashara who jumped into the sea. Ned and Ashara were together at Starfell around about the right time to conceive young Ned, who seems to be about 9 moths older that Sansa who we can assume was conceived about the time Ned went home to Winterfell and Catelyn arrived with Robb. Young Ned is 12 when we meet him when Arya is about 10 and we can assume Sansa is 11 almost 12 and Robb 15.5. Ned Dayne is about 6-9 moths older than sansa, which fits the timeline of Ned at Starfell Another is F Aegon There is a third, admittedly quite bizarre. Gendry could be Lyanna's son. He is nearly the right age ie about 14.5 when we meet him ie about 4 months younger than Jon. If Robert in fact raped Lyanna (some time during the war) it would explain his collapse into a drunken wastrel. - guilt etc. Then there is Dany. Age once again makes this unlikely. She is supposed to be at least a year younger than say Robb, turning 14 well after she was married. However while Dany could not possibly be the stillborn daughter of Ashara she COULD be the child of Lyanna but it does still require quite a bit of subterfuge etc. How does such a baby get introduced to Viserys. Even a boy as young as 9 could probably tell an 18 moth old girl from a 9 month old - but it IS possible - just. Dany (whoever her mother was) would have been cared for by wetnurses, so I imagine Viserys would have seen very little of her in her first two years. Mixing up a child of two with one of ho is nearly three is possible given there were no servants around long term and Viserys was just a child. However what happened to the child born on Dragonstone.
  7. I have a partly formed idea about the origin of the dragon riders which may somehow tie all the threads together. We have in the world two rather different but connected forms of human/animal magic. First there is skinchanging a gift of the Children following the pact to a selected group of First Men families. each with their "special" animal. We are told of Starks with direwolves, Blackwoods with Ravens, Bears with Mormants and is it Fairchilds with seals. We are not told for sure but there seems a strong link between Ryswells and horses and Umbers and Giants and I would not be surprised to find a link between Manderlys and Mermen and some on Skagos with Unicorns and possible Greyjoys with Kraken (giant octopus). The Whents and predecessors seem to interchange with Bats and Tullys with trout - eg blackfish, I suspect that there may originally have been 100 "gifts" of skinchanging. We know that there are dogs, eagles and snow leopards that can be skin changed. (possible there were 50 animals and 50 with plants). A lot of old first men families have animals of some kind as their sigils and I think this is significant - crabs, bees, falcons, stags, bulls, lions etc all with roots to first men if somewhat distant. The principle of this skin changing seems to be that the "soul" of the human can enter that of the animal and take control of it or at least coexist with it. Those who are very strong in the number of animals they can enter may well have genetic links with the original families. - Theoretically a person (such as Bran) could carry the genes for 46 such animals. Second we have dragons, linked to Valerian families. The animal/human relationship is similar to the "warging" except that the Tararyans seem in some sense actually give birth to the Dragons - to decome their mothers in some sense. The relationship seems stronger and it seems as if rather than the soul of the person entering the animal, in the case of the Targs, the soul of the Dragon enters the human. A reverse warg if you like. So here is the idea. We know of the legend of Azor. What if the TARGS (and other Valerians) were the deliberate product of Daynes (a blond, purple eyed family/tribe of first men) plus the most powerful skinchanging family ( Blackwoods). This relationship "forged" dragons who were in essence the sword that allowed the others to be defeated plus whoever it was that wielded the sword lightbringer (possibly one and the same with Dawn) AND its companion the swords of the Starks "Ic." and "blackfyre." The Daynes are the fulcrum - the balance between ice and fire. Notice that the collapse of the Valerians coincided in time with the loss of the stark's original sword and not too long after the Starks bent the knee to the residual of the Dragon Lords. Then the last of the dragons died.
  8. bed into the dragonWeirwood eyes i think the key is what is the person's first 'familiar" which triggers the skin changing ability. We have to assume it is genetic in some way. - thus Starks with direwolves, Mormants with bears and perhaps targs with dragons. But yes there may just be a general gen for skin changing except that I doubt that Varamyr could have bonded as a child with a bear or a direwolf or even a raven. My REAL issue is not really about the houses associated with particular "familiars" but rather the relationship with the Targs and their bond with dragons. My suggestion is that the dragon riding ability is like a warging turned inwards - distorted in some way. In skinchaging the human "soul" enters the animal and controls it. We are warned that sometimes the person becomes lost in the animal. With Dragon riding I suspect it too is a sort of similar skinchanging relationship ie that those Targs who are dragon riders are skin changers like the Starks, but that their special "familiar" is a dragon. However there seems to be an additional element with dragons- the spirit of the dragon seems to enter the body of the human!! In some cases - indeed many cases this dragon spirit takes control. Hence the madness of the Targs - these are the ones who are unable to control their dragons and where the vicious personality of the dragon takes over their minds.When Viserys uses the term "wake the dragon" that is exactly what he means. When he is upset or ermotional the dragon spirit within him awakens and causes rage and cruelty. The other twist that seems to occur with Targs is that there is a physical association with mothers such that sometimes the mother when pregnant develops dragons not human babies. These are malformed and generally die OR they live and become new dragons or perhaps in some weird magic way the spirit of the unborn Targ baby is absorbed into the dragon. The baby dies but in the process a new dragon is created provided there is an egg nearby. This is exactly what we see with Dany - her baby dies (defromed like a dragon) but a new real dragon is born, presumably with the spirit of her child. I suspect the other two dragons have the "souls" of Viserys and Drogo - (who I suspect had some Targ ancestry - his great grandma may have been a captured slave girl of valyrian origin)
  9. Victarian Thanks - i had not caught upon that one -or at least that it was martin himself saying Jon was 9 months older than Dany. This narrows down option for parents, given that 1. If Dany were Lyanna's child Jon would need to have been born just shortly after the war started (it lasted a year and if ToJ was at the very end than Jon would need to have been born about 3-4 months in and at least 4-6 months before Robb. This is too big a gap. I always though this unlikely now it seems certain. 2. The ages mentions are consistent with the story line and what we a told. We meet Jon when he is 14, about 4 moths before his 15th birthday (it takes about that time for Robert to arrive (travelling slowly) have a several weeks stay, delay leaving because of Bran's accident, then for Jon to travel to the wall and wait bout 3 weeks for his birthday. We meet Dany when she is still 13 and putting together the timelines we can place her at about 13 years 10 months when she marries. Robert gets word of the marriage ()say it takes about 1 month to get the message to him), Jon would still not yet be 15 while Dany is on the cusp of turning 14 3, It makes some things logical partners. If Dany was really born at Dragonstone then Jon was born at the end of the war (ruling out Brandon as Daddy) and of course making Lyanna as mother more likely.
  10. Just to add to this idea from a different angle what if all three are Rhaegar's kids Aegon via Elia - water Jon via Lyanna -beast (in ths case a direwolf not a Lion) Dany via Ashara - whom he may also have loved. This Ashara is Nissa Nissa
  11. OK I am going to post a really, really really out of the box idea. What if all three probable dragon riders are the progeny of Ned and Ashara Aegon - who was the "stillborn" daughter- he would be about 15 months older than Jon Jon - conceived during Ned's flight Dany - conceived at Starfell and again who is about 15 months younger than Jon. The problem of course is that why are two of them so "targ" in appearance if neither parent is a targ. I have a ay our wacky theory (actually not a theory just an idea) on this but will post it separately at some time.
  12. I just do NOT see Jon as Brandon's son - makes no sense in the story line - unless Catelyn hates him because she loved brandon. Much, much more likely that Jon is ned plus ashara and Real Aegon was brandon plus Elia. In any case I do not think it was ANY stark who dinhonoured Ashara - I think it was Aerys.
  13. While we will not know for sure i am inclined to think that potential greenseers have a tendency to be names Brandon or Bryndon. I suspect some of those disappearing Brandons may have been greenseers. i am sure it is no accident that Bloodraven and Bran essentially share a name -
  14. TM fairy You hit the nail on the head- you can fundge a baby by a nmonth or two - not more Something like this Newborn cannot be confused with a baby of 2 weeks 2 weeks maybe up to 4 weeks - no more 4 week baby possibly one of 8 weeks but NOT much more 8 weeks(2 month) max would be three and a half months at 4 months - max 6 months 6 months - 9 months max three months - this is the walking/crawling age and growth and milestones are VERY obvious - more than a baby lying in a crib.max 9 months 9 months max 12 months -as above from 1 year on you can start to get more room for fudging ages but rarely more than 3 months. The other time that is hard to fudge is around 6/7 when the milk teeth disappear - you have maximum i year window for fudging ages. The next big time is puberty - especially for girls. A girl who is supposedly only 10 but is really 13 will be very obviously not who she says she is or a boy of 11 who suddenly starts to grow facial hair!!!. Realistically I think you can fudge an absolute maximum of 1 year. Of course after puberty you can fudge a great deal and many a kid of 17 can be mistaken for 27 or vice versa.
  15. The problem with most of these theories is that you need to get the ages to match. Sure one a kid is 15 or so you can conceal ages but it is much, much harder when a child is young. A baby has key milestones - crawling, walking, talking, first teeth etc up until losing baby teeth at 7 and also puberty.. The young the child the harder it is to mix up aged by years or months. There are a number of children with uncertain parentage (mother or father or if they exist at all) in rough order of ages as we are informed. Real Aegon Fake Aegon Ashara's stillborn child Robb Jon Lyanna's child Wylla's child Gendry Dany Rhaella's child born at Dragonstone Wylla of the Manderleys Ned Dayne So let us look at the facts and ages as we know them. First (R)Aegon - he was supposedly conceived at Harrenhall (but it is not absolutely clear) but what we do know is that when the war was over he was still a babe in arms able to be "switched" which means a child of say 15 moths or less. That fits with Harrenhall. This would make him 15.5 -16 when the story starts. Since he was still a baby we have no idea what he looked like and who his real parents may be. Possibilities are Rhaegar and Elia or Elia and anyone else (Brandon???), or Ashara and Rhaegar or Ashara and Aerys or Ashara and Ned or Brandon. Second (F)Aagon who of course may well be real Aegon What we know of him is that he clearly has strong Targ blood so we can assume that his mother or father were Targs or Blackfyres. If he is the Real Aegon then any of the parent combinations that include Rhaegar or Aerys are possible. He seems to be about a year too young to be the Real Aegon, but at 16/17 this can easily be mistaken. Options if he is not real include: Rhaegar and Lyanna Illyrio and Saera Third Ashara Dayne's "still born" daughter. Possibilities are endless - she could indeed have died, she could have been swapped with Elia's dead child, he/she could have been smuggled from KL to protect him/her from Aerys. The father we assume was at Harrenhall. What we know is that any such child has to be roughly the same age as Aegon ie 15.5-16 years when the book started. This more or less rules out Jon and Dany. Jon grew up with Robb who we know to still be 14.75. Jon arrived at Winterfell still with a wet nurse, which suggests he was younger than 1 year. Robb arrived with Catelyn a few months afterwards. At that age you CANNOT fudge whole years. You might get away with 1-2 moths but even that is hard. Just about EVERY woman can pick a baby's age down to a month or so so a child that was supposedly 9 months cannot in ANY way be confused with one who is actually 15 moths and certainly not with one of 18-21 months. Only if Jon and Robb arrived at Winterfell as say 2 year olds could you realistically hide an age swap of 6 months, let alone 9 months. The comment above re 7 month olds being confused is laughable. Ruling Dany out is a little harder because she is thirteen when we meet her and did not live with a servant or person who saw her grow etc. However we know she has lived with Viserys for many years and it would be hard to substitute a child with an 8/9 year old boy around. We know there was a child born at Dragonstone so if it were Ashara's STILLBORN daughter it could not have been Dany, since even an 8 year old Viserys could tell the difference between a newborn and a 1 year old. Similarly you do not mix up a thirteen year old girl with a 16 year old - or more to the point when Dany was supposedly 10 and living with Viserys you could not mix up a supposedly ten year old with a thirteen year old. When we meet her she is supposedly 13 and we know she still has a very slight figure - small breasts etc. She is still very clearly a child. She is NOT 16. (Please do NOT think of the movie Dany - just GRRM's story). Also Dany is clearly a Targ so her parents must be at least one of either Rhaegar, Aerys or Rhaella or some unknown Blackfyre). So if the child of Ashara was not Dany or Jon he/she could be Real Aegon swapped with Elia's dead child. - This is my preferred option One other very unlikely possibility is that this baby was the child of ROBERT and Ashara and possibly therefore Gendry. We are told he is 14 when we meet him but he is a very big lad, so conceivably he is a 16 year old. However we more or less get the sense that he is still a very green boy and behaves much more like a 14 year old who has just reached puberty than a 16 year old. Edrik Dayne is much too young to be this child. Fourth I have listed Robb as having uncertain parentage because as in today's world a child conceived on a wedding night is always just a tad suspect in terms of paternity. Obviously his mother is Catelyn. Obviously his father is a Stark (the direwolf). He could be the child of Brandon or Ned (or Rickard or Rodrick of Benjen - but rather silly idea). I opt for Brandon because of the timing and because it would really explain Catelyn's fear and hatred of Jon. it is even possible that Catelyn herself is not fully aware of who the father is- she was pretty young and there did not seem to be any older women in her life as a girl who could have told her a thing or three. The Tully girls seemed to have been unchaperoned or else the Petyr/ Lyssa thing would not have happened. It would also explain why Ned married her despite his love for Ashara. It would be a neat contrast to Robb who sort of did the same thing - but risked his throne in so doing. Hoster Tully would have known. All of Brandon's companions are dead and there did not seem to be any wise/gossipy old ladies brought from Riverrun to Winterfell who might tutt-tutt over the birth dates and Robb's "prematurity." Born in the middle of a war, not too many would bother or care to consider if Robb was born 33 or 40 weeks after the wedding night. Possibly not even Catelyn. Ned being Ned would have believed that Brandon' s son was the rightful heir anyway, so he would treat Robb as his son. Fifth is Jon and he is the super mystery boy. All we KNOW for absolute sure is that ONE of his parents was a Stark and that he was born roughly 10-11 months after the war started and probably is one-three months younger than Robb or possibly one-3 months older (any more you could not fake). Since HE believes his nameday is a month of so after Robb's we have to assume it is so. However they must be very, very close, given both boys are 14 when we meet them and Jon turns 15 about 2 months after we meet him. Given Brandon and Rickard were dead, his parents must be Ned, Benjen or Lyanna (or Rodrick and an unknown Stark). What these birthdates suggest is that Jon was conceived very, very close to the time Robb was conceived. We are talking within four weeks of Ned's marriage or if my Brandon plus Cat = Robb theory is right, Jon was conceived BEFORE Ned married Catelyn. Possibilities: Ned plus Ashara - assumes that Ashara was NOT in KL when the war broke out but was really in the Vale. It also assumes that she did not have a living child with her or at least not breastfeeding a child) - so her stillborn child was indeed dead or handed to someone else. Yes there is of course plenty of time for there to be TWO children from Ashara- one about 15 months when the second was born. actually a very common time difference for the era (and our own - my brother and sister for example). Wylla could indeed have been her wet nurse if the first child was indeed alive. Ned would have conceived Jon BEFORE he married. Indeed it is possible that Ashara was the "fisherman's daughter" helping to smuggle Ned home to call his banners. Under this scenario Ned would have married Ashara (via the Heart tree).. He may have believed her dead when he went on to marry Catelyn. This is one helluva good reason for hiding Jon's parentage from Catelyn. Rhaegar plus Lyanna - they were together we are told and the timeline sort of fits although assuming Lyanna died in chilbed her baby seems just a fraction too young to be Jon, assuming he is almost Robb's age. Lyanna and Aerys - horrid though it might be, it is possible that Aerys kidnaped Lyanna Lyanna and Mance - it is a bit of a stretch but fits with the Bael the Bard meme. Ned plus the unknown Wylla or fisherman's daughter. Not really very much like Ned to impregnate someone he did not love, but I guess even he was young and hot blooded once. Sixth is Lyanna's child. Obviously one possibility is Jon Another is F Aegon There is a third, admittedly quite bizarre. Gendry could be Lyanna's son. He is nearly the right age ie about 14.5 when we meet him ie about 4 months younger than Jon. If Robert in fact raped Lyanna (some time during the war) it would explain his collapse into a drunken wastrel. - guilt etc. Then there is Dany. Age once again makes this unlikely. She is supposed to be at least a year younger than say Robb, turning 14 well after she was married. However while Dany could not possibly be the stillborn daughter of Ashara she COULD be the child of Lyanna but it does still require quite a bit of subterfuge etc. How does such a baby get introduced to Viserys. Even a boy as young as 9 could probably tell an 18 moth old girl from a 9 month old - but it IS possible - just. Dany (whoever her mother was) would have been cared for by wetnurses, so I imagine Viserys would have seen very little of her in her first two years. Mixing up a child of two with one of ho is nearly three is possible given there were no servants around long term and Viserys was just a child. However what happened to the child born on Dragonstone. Seventh is Wylla's child. We know Wylla is real- a nurse maid at Starfell. She may indeed be Jon's mother but more likely she is a wetnurse hired to take care of Lyanna's child OR Jon, whoever his mother was. However who ever she is her NAME s significant. We see it with the Manderly girl - NOT an accident I suspect. We also are told that Wylla was the mother of Lonnel SNOW another bastard Stark. Perhaps it is a generic name like Snow - for the mother of any Stark bastard. Or maybe it was the name of Lyanna;s handmaiden who may have been travelling with her- she too may have been raped following the "kidnap" Eighth is Gendry. The likely explanation is he is the son of Robert and a whore or serving girl. However the possibility of him being the son of Lyanna remains or indeed yet another child of Ashara via Robert or ???? Stannis.. Ninth is Dany. Possibilities already listed are that she id Lyanna's child by Rhaegar but she is a little young. She may indeed be who we are told she is. The child of Aerys and Rhaella. What we know is that she has dragon blood, so at least one of her parents was a dragon. Given she is the MOTHER of dragons i am willing to bet that her mother was a dragon. However she reminds Barristan of ashara. There are other possibilities: all we need is the daddy and mummy together at the time of the sack. so we have Aerys and Lyanna, Aerys and Ashara, Rhaegar and Ashara, Rhaella and Arthur Dayne, Rhaella and Tywin, Rhaella and Ned, Ashara and Ned (but no dragon blood), Rhaegar and Rhaella (yuck) Tenth is Rhaella's child - which sort of means Dany. Unless Rhaella and Ashara did a swapsies - which is very possible. Thus it was Ashara who died on Dragonstone. However Viserys would have known his mother so unlikely Eleven is wylla of the manderlys who really only gets a mention because her age and name seems significant Finally at 12 we have Ned Dayne. He is much too young to be the child of Lyanna who was dead or Rhaegar or Arthur Dayne (unless still alive). He COULD be the child of Ned and Ashara but it would not have been Ashara who jumped into the sea. Ned and Ashara were together at Starfell around about the right time to conceive young Ned, who seems to be about 9 moths older that Sansa who we can assume was conceived about the time Ned went home to Winterfell and Catelyn arrived with Robb. Young Ned is 12 when we meet him when Arya is about 10 and we can assume Sansa is 11 almost 12 and Robb 15.5. Ned Dayne is about 6-9 moths older than sansa, which fits the timeline of Ned at Starfell .
  16. In medieval England (where this story is more or less set), warding or fostering was the common practice for noble lads and was seen as an honour by more junior nobility and a wise safety precaution by other lords. By scattering sons to different Lords they were given protection as well as military education and training. In many cases they learnt to read which might not be possible in smaller holdings. The bonds of friendship were forged between boys raised together and presumably many a marriage was also formed as wise parents could check out which of the likely lads was best for their daughters. Boys usually left home at the age of 7, becoming a page in a great household and then at 14 became squires and at 21 Knights. However by the later middle ages the sons of Kings seemed to become squires and then knights much, much earlier. Wardships were in fact valuable property and were awarded to nobles by the king as spoils of war or special favours. I think that they had use of the assets and revenue from the ward's estate until the boy/girl was 21 - the age of majority. Most (but not all) wards wee treated well by their guardians. However there was a very fine line between being a ward and being a hostage. Probably the most famous were the many Scottish Kings held hostage for most of their lives but also the famous Henry V who was "fostered" by his cousin Richard II while his father was exiled. When his father did rebel he was in a very precarious position and it is probable that he never forgave his father for risking his life. (according to the novelists his father favoured his younger brother). Luckily for Henry, Richard II was fond of him (perhaps rather too fond in a Michael Jackson sort of way) and did not execute him. Richard was overthrown by Henry's daddy and died mysteriously in custody - probably with a fate akin to poor Donella Hornwood. Back to GoT I suspect that Rickard (and perhaps his father too) had rebellion in the back of their minds and this was probably one reason for sending young Ned to the Eyrie - what safer place- and probably Steffon Baratheon thought the same. Where to place your possibly favourite (or most valuable) sons, safe from devious plans of the mad king and/or Tywin Lannister.
  17. Some of this is spot on but not all. 1. Wylla is certainly significant and like you I agree that Wylla Manderly has some connection to Jon (and Edrik Dayne). Note that there was another Wylla (Fenn so probably from the Neck) who gave birth to a Snow via a Brandon Stark. 2. The Green hair is certainly a bit of a find - you may be on to something re her Targness and possibly who her mother and father is/was. 3. I do think that Aerys raped Ashara and her "stillborn" daughter was her child. However i think that she really had a son who is Aegon swapped willingly by Elia for her child. 4. I have another super duper wacky idea that Elia was keen to have her child "stillborn" because it was not a child of Rhaegar's. Rather I think it was Elia that Brandon played around with. (or Arthur Dayne). Such a child is too old to be Jon or Edrik or even Meera but could be the mysterious Allyria Dayne.
  18. This is possibly the most a-historical comment i have ever read on this site. Firstly children do not make the parents their heirs today or in the middle ages. It is assumed they will die first so making them heirs is not advised (try making a will for example) The whole point of an heir is to ensure smooth trouble free succession and naming Catelyn would be silly because she has no heirs. If she took a new husband you are suggesting that some child of hers by an unknown man or her nephew Robin should be the heir.That is beyond stupid and Robb may be silly sometimes but not that silly. Making her a regent is of course quite possible and even likely and had any one of Robb's siblings been alive then I have little doubt that he would have named her regent or co-regent.If Jeyne had a child then that too would be possible. I must admit I rather thought that GRRM would have actually have a plot line such that Catelyn herself was pregnant with a sixth child (it was hinted at in her first chapter) which would have been a nice confusing touch but he obviously abandoned the idea. However the idea that Catelyn would be the official heir to Winterfell is truly absurd. Not only would it go against the rules of inheritance in the South it obviously would breach the whole First men ethos of the North. Of course IF Robb or any of the Starks do have a child then that child is in a very powerful position potentially, being heir to both The North and Riverun (probably as I think Edmure is sterile - the whole floppy fish song). Now should Bran and Rickon have no heirs and should Sansa eventually marry Robin (or Harry the heir) her children would be heirs to THREE kingdoms.
  19. If you look at the companion world book there are as many races ethnicity as in our real world plus a few semi humans. Just about every nation on the planet gets a look in EXCEPT the Americas. We have Chinese, Japanese, Caribbeans, Greeks, Italians Scandinavians, Spanish, North Africans, Vikings Germanic peoples Celts pre Celts
  20. Skeletons 4 times in the first book by four different people. This is GRRM so it is BLOODY important. Why must there always be a Stark at Winterfell? Until you know the answer to that question you cannot sensibly rule it out. I thought it was a pretty clear assumption that "Must be a Stark at Winterfell" was strong tradition like cutting off heads by Lord and burying the dead in the crypts with a sword and a direwolf statue. I use the term Old Gods more generally to include all those matters that formed part of the Pact and also most of the stuff relating to the wall - and the 79 deserters etc. GRRM is really into bloodlines etc and a Tully is a Tully not a Stark. In any case GRRM's world is Europe in the middle ages and the one thing you can be ABSOLUTELY sure of is that wives do not inherit unless they are also in the line of descent. Even where they are regents it almost lays led to civil war and rebellion and the foreigner was hated. Catelyn has a strong claim to inherit Riverun if Edmure dies and I suspect she may also become the rightful heir to Harrenhall too. But she has no claim whatsoever to the North. Of course all power comes out of the barrel of a gun or int his case spears, swords, arrow and pikes. if Catelyn led a host of many thousands, experienced in Northern warfare she just might exercise such a claim. But in the absence of such - ho hum. However I think it is bloody obvious and has been since GoT that Catelyn will support Sansa for the "throne" of Winterfell against Jon/Rickon. Ned's thoughts foreshadowed this and it is very very clear it will happen. The breaking of Ice into two also foreshadows such a battle. In this case Sansa will be supported by an army from the Vale and probably with Cat's assistance also many of the River lords. The North will not support them. I suspect it will be to end that bloody ar that Bran will leave his cave and rule Winterfell passing it on to some descendent of Rickon, perhaps married to some descendant of Rickon and Jon and Arya and Sansa - all four perhaps. Bandon is now 9/10. He rules until he is 85 (like Walder Frey and the other aged Stark. In 75 years some great and great great grand kids of our Starks can inherit.
  21. What story are you reading. It is certainly not the Song of Ice and Fire. Recall we start the story with the ice Family - Starks and the fire family - Dany. The who GoT stuff and the Tully alliance is a big distraction and indeed may be the actual REASON that the Others have arisen again- probably not but still possible. There must always be a STARK at Winterfell. Catelyn is NOT a Stark. She cannot inherit by the laws of the IT OR the mystical rule of the Old Gods. ONLY if she married some other vague Stark relation - eg Karstark might it even be a vague possibility. She could of course be named regent, but after the Jaime business I doubt Robb would do that as she would not be trusted by the Northerners. He would name his unborn child as heir. If Robb were rational- which I think he is he would name for his unborn child three co-regents 1. Someone strong from the North but without a claim to Winterfell even indirectly - probably Great Jon or Manderley 2. Someone from his Tully side - Blackfish probably (he did not respect Edmure's judgement) 3. Someone wise who just cared for the Starks/Robb - Maester Luwin perhaps. He would look to marry his mother off to someone whom he trusted but would also be a strong ally. Someone from the Riverlands or Vale I would think. He might even name Arya as regent until such time as his child came of age, provided she was unmarried and lived at Winterfell. In the even of their not being an heir he MIGHT name Arya (if found alive) provided she never married and remained a Stark. This would prevent her being used as a pawn. He would need some time limit on finding her eg by the time she has her 12th name day However on the assumption that Arya is dead Robb would have no choice but to name Jon. However we must not ignore the mystical essentials - There must always be a "Stark at Winterfell." Who is a Stark. It must be assumed it is some sort of bloodline possibly via the male line but I suspect that it is a FEMALE line thing - or maybe a both male and female thing as it is with dragon riders. If Robb is wise then he would naturally name Jon but if Jon were dead or not available then who. The problem with the descendants of the daughters of Jocelyn Stark is that they are not of the North and he would not know if they were trusted, They may even be Lannisters. Indeed I am practically certain that the actual heir of Jocelyn Stark is little Walda Frey, (the unknown daughter) Harry the Heir (waynwood) or possibly horrible Courbrey. Horrible thought - it could EVEN be Littlefinger - we do not know who is mother or grandmother or great grandmother is. For this reason I think Robb would exclude all such descendants. He could go back through the family records I guess to find other lost Starks or Snows. There are an awful lot of missing Starks who may have had descendants. I rather suspect we will find many in the Company of the Rose and also in the blood lines of those beyond the wall. I will take a wild guess that Bael the Bard was a Stark descendant (this would be essential if Ygritte's tale is true and if male Starkness is essential for the blood line. Probably also Mance Raydar.
  22. As I noted on the other thread, the whole point of the heir stuff is that under Catelyn's view the actual heir would be in this order Possibly a Waynwood Unkown possibly non existant - could be harry the heir) Possibly a Corbray - Descendants of Perrara Royce who is obviously NOT named by accident Edwyn Frey Baby Walda Blackwalder Perra (baby) Walton Frey Steffan Frey Bryan Frey Fair Walda Descendants of Maegelle Vance
  23. If Robb named Cat as heir even as regent he would be showing himself a fool. Catelyn does NOT have a following among the Northern Lord nor any military strength. If and only if she married a Northern Lord could that work and that would pose other problems. He probably did name Cat as a co regent for any child of Jeyne's but he could very well have named Jon as co-regent or perhaps Maester Luwin or one of the Mormants. He might have nominated Blackfish as a regent, but he has never been to the North so not a good choice. As I have pointed out before Catelyn's folly in suggesting a Royce heir is essentially nominating Black Walder Frey as heir since I doubt that it is by accident that we are told that Walder Frey's first wife was Perrerra Royce.
  24. Medieval Britain was much warmer than today and wine was grown certainly in Southern areas. I see Dorne (at least initially as being warm like Cornwall. Not only were there bogs but the whole Neck is very like the mystical areas of Britain where druids hung out - marshy and boggy. The North seems very like Scotland/Scandinavia
  25. GRRM is a bloody good writer who does his research well. Westeros is Britain of the middle ages and Essos the rest of Europe and north Africa GRRM seems to have a specialist interest (obsession!!!) with medieval diet and feasts. He used corn on the general sense and would NEVER have introduced potatoes or tomatoes. So the things that actually have or eat will be those things that were available in medieval Britain. They have Linen but not cotton. Silk was known of although a great luxury. So it is not an accident that they did not have potatoes. I do not think that the is any new World at all in Planetos and nothing whatever of the Americas. We certainly can see the arctic lands and China, Japan, the middle east and India seems to be there if distantly. Southeros is Sub-saharan Africa and the Summer Isles i guess the Caribbean and Ultheros Australia and South East Asia.