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Everything posted by Luddagain

  1. One of the problems about all this targ/Stark mix up is that the houses have been around a long time and there is plenty of Targ/Stark blood flowing in every vein. I DO think Tyrion is a dragon rider or dragon tamer but that does NOT mean that he is the son of Aerys. How about Joanna his mother. Plenty of scope for a targ grandmother/great grandmother etc. there was probably a reason why Aerys was chasing her in the first place. I am fairly convinced that BOTH warging ability AND dragon riding are passed down via the MOTHER or perhaps that the ability to skin change (or bond with dragons) is passed down via the mother but the father gets to decide the animals with which they bond. Another way is that the ability to skin change requires a recessive gene- double dose, so BOTH parents must carry this recessive gene. A distant targ great grandmother of both Tywin and joanna would allow Tyrion to carry just this gene -linked almost certainly with the similar recessive gene for dwarfism (not the same but closely con-located).
  2. When GRRM first started the series it was pretty obvious that the lands more or less represented the seven Kingdoms of Anglosaxon era Britain. The far north was the land beyond Hadrians wall ie Pictish areas and the highlands. The North probably Strathclyde and Northumberland, The iron Islands the Viking controlled areas and the Scottish isles, Wales was a the vale and Dorne Cornwall. Wessex was the Westerlands , East anglia the Stormlands and Kent/Essex the crown lands and the reach. The Riverlands were the fertile areas of the ancient kingdom of Mercia. However he also gave to the Riverlands some characteristics of Ireland especially in the names Tully and even Catelyn - a rather Irish sounding name. this fits also since ireland was heavily attacked by Vikings as the riverland were by Harren and the Hoares. As the story progressed Dorne seemed more Spanish than Cornish and the reach rather French. Obviously the free cities are drawn from European cities/nations, with Pentos Athens (or Greece), Braavos seems like Venice, Norvos presumably one of the north German cities. Not too sure about tyrosh, Myrrh and Lysene but i guess Amsterdam and Paris should be in the Mix somewhere. Volantis is Rome or perhaps Constantinople and the cities in slaver's bay the North coast of Africa
  3. Time for some logic what with all the babies and all. First the children- as that the START if the book: thre are 17 = i am excluding Rickon and Bran and Arya is really only there for reference purpose 16 Aegon (real) - born roughly 9 months after Harrenhall 16 Ashara's still born daughter 15: Aegon (real or fake) but when we meet him he seems younger than Jon and Robb 14.9 Robb 14.8 Jon 14.8 Sam (he arrived at the Wall about a month or so after Jon and presumably took about twice as long on the journey, 13.8 -14.8 Gendry - he is 14 when we meet him roughly 4 months into the story 13.6-13.8-: Dany - she has her 14th birthday a few months into the story 12: Joffrey 10.9-11.8: Edrik Dayne - we meet him roughly 1 year into the story and he is 12 11.2: Sansa 10: Podrick 10: Myrcella 9: Arya 7: Bran 6: Tommen 6: Robert Arryn Now as to possible parentage of each of these children Mothers: We can be absolutely sure of Arya, Sansa, Bran, Robb, Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen, Robert and Sam As for the others we did not see them born and their is no mother alive to claim them Possible mothers: Real Aegon: Elia, Ashara Ashara's daughter: Elia or Ashara Fake Aegon: Elia, Ashara, Sienna, Lysene whore Jon: Ashara, Lyanna, Wylla, Fisherman's daughter, a TARG secret or real Gendry: Almost anybody but could also be Lyanna or Ashara or even Cersai Dany: Rhaenys or Ashara. Cannot be Lyanna as she was already dead Edrik: wide choice but I think it might be Ashara (busy girl that one) Cannot be Lyanna as she was already dead Podrick: Almost anyone, but someone in the Westerlands Fathers: we can never be absolutely sure of anyone's father but I think we can safely assume that we know: Sansa, Bran, Arya are sired by Ned although it is conceivable (not likely) that Sansa had a father other than ned. However she did have a direwolf so let us assume she is Ned's child and there is no other stark around at the time of her conception. Joffrey, Myrcella, Tommen sired by Jaime All of the others are subject to some doubt Gendry: Robert is the father but mother unknown Aegon: Possible baby swap so father could be Rhaegar or Aerys or Ned or Brandon or whoever else dishonoured Ashara FAegon: illyrio Varys!!, (or the same as Aegon Robb: clearly a Stark (direwolf) so Ned or Brandon Jon: Ned or if Lyanna is mother then Rhaegar, Aerys, Robert, Mance, Arthur Dayne Dany: Aerys, Rhaegar, Tywin, Ned, Arthur Dayne, Ser Bonnifer. Cannot be Brandon as he was already dead by the time she was conceived Edrik: Either a Dayne heir or Ned. Cannot be Brandon as he was already dead by the time he was conceived Podrick: Almost anyone However my preferred idea (a bit of dreaming really) Aegon - Ashara and Aerys (swapped with Elia's dead baby) Robb - Cat and Brandon Jon - Ashara and Ned (yes there is just enough time) Gendry - Lyanna and ROBERT (this would explain Robetrt's collapse into drunkeness and guilt) Dany - Rhaella and Arthur Dayne, Edrik - Ashara and Ned - yes once again the age gap is roughly the same as that of Robb and Sansa Podrik - Tysha and Tyrion
  4. Sansa is already married. So she will need to wait until Tyrion dies or the marriage is annulled before she can marry anyone else. I think she will willingly stay with Tyrion - recall he was KIND to her as he also was to many others- Bran, Jon, Penny etc. However there are some disturbing hints/foreshadowing with Sansa. First there is obviously her loss of wolf, second there is some "ice cold" queen in her personality - the Winter Queen or Night Queen perhaps, thirdly there is that wolf/bat scuttlebut which does rather link her to harrenhall and perhaps mad donella Whent and also the rather loathsome Lothstones.
  5. Guest right ONLY applies if people have taken bread and salt (ie food). When Robb met Tyrion with a sword across his knee he was saying NO GUEST Right. Jaime certainly broke guest right but it was simple murder also.
  6. BC There is a perfectly logical genetically correct pattern whereby all the stark kids are wargs but not Ned. Assume that to be a warg you need two genes - a dominant W gene such that all those who are WW or Ww could potentially warg. However you ALSO need a recessive skin changer gene eg ss. Now if ned like many starks had a genotype WWSs he could not warg because he was not a skin changer. If Catelyn had the skin changing gene (highly likely given she comes from the Riverlands where there are lots of Blackwoods) but not the Warg gene she also could not warg although she potentially might skin change another animal. Her genotyope is wwSS. All of the children would be WwSs ie they could warg. Potentially their are 100 special genes given to families in the pact. What i suspect makes Bran unique is that he carries all 100 such genes in dominant form.
  7. I also have studies a bit of genetics and I do not find the whole Black hair dominant stuff as strange or impossible. There are lots of reasonable genetic explanations. one is as BC mentioned there could be a number of dominant genes on several chromosomes any one of which could trigger the Baratheon look. Another might be trigger gene that was needed to express the gene. Thus a blond haired person may actually have a black hair gene but need the trigger to allow it to show. A third and perhaps more likely given we are dealing in fantasy is that for Baratheons, the gene for black hair and blue eyes is linked (co-located) on a chromosome near an unrelated but crucial for living gene. This the 50% of Baratheon sperm that do not have this essential gene will die quickly and never produce babies.
  8. GRRM has drawn his characters from actual historical figures, especially in England. The Pantaganats on whom the Targs are based had many, many kins who were gay or assumed to be gay. 1. William II was known to be gay (son of the conqueror) - he was weak and unpopular 2. Richard I (the Lionheart) was a very good war leader but widely rumoured to have slept with the King of France 3. Richard II - was known to be gay - two gay lovers were executed 4. Henry V the most popular of UKs kings - it is rarely even whispered about him but my gut tells me he was gay - probably first molested by Richard II who seems to have been a bit of a Michael Jackson character. And these four more or less cover the period of the Targ reign in Westeros.
  9. We know that there is something special about Taragyans that allows them to ride dragons and it seems clear from Tyrion's musings that genetic contribution from both the mother and father are needed. We more or less guess that genetic contribution is essential for warging and presumably other skin changing ability. Now with skin changing we know that the "warg" has the capacity to enter the mind of the animal (or in the case of Bran the person) and also into people's dreams. In other words the "soul" of the warg enters the "soul" of the animal. What if the genetic engineering that created the dragon riders involved a reverse of this process. The dragon "soul" is able to enter the "soul" of the skin changer. This would explain the whole "wake the dragon" idea and also the increasing madness of targs as their inner dragons start to stir. However IF they have an actual dragon to bond with, possibly their inner dragon soul can find a new home. Targ women may be able to host quite a few "souls" both dragons and other targs/skinchangers with second lives. Thus Dany hosted Viserys after his death, along with Drogo and prossibly Mirri. thus the soul of Drogo and Viserys have entered the dragons. Rhaegal could have the soul of her mother OR Brother.
  10. RB The trouble with that view is that we KNOW that genetics is involved in skin changing and being a greenseer. The Targ obsession with marrying their sisters indicates that they believed genetics was important. I have no problem with the genetic idea any more that I think that some people are born to be good wrestlers, weightlifters or sprinters. We obviously know from animal breeding that it works a treat to develop special characteristics, albeit with some sever deformities etc due to inbreeding. Obviously it is a bit creepy to have that whole "blood" thing - which I personally would not write in a story, but it is GRRMs tale and he has included it.
  11. Actually Reticent I would go a tad further and say that skin changing ability is essential to be a dragon rider, possibly in a modified form. I think I will post a new topic on this
  12. The reticent We do not know there was no Stark blood in the original dragon riders. Pretty far fetched i know so I am not saying I believe it but it has crossed my mind. Many Starks have gone wandering and there is no reason to assume that they did not travel to Essos and meet a Valerian or 50. indeed while names and sound can be very deceptive the name targaryan could be (S)targ(K) aryan ie blond Starks. However I do think that the Starks were responsible for the Doom (or closely associated in some way). Think that the ORIGINAL sword Ice disappeared about the same time as the Doom - Brandon the shipwright ???????
  13. Dany can not be Lyanna's since we know she was dead well before Dany was born 9unless another switch. However i do have a weird idea that i have had since I first read the books. Dragon riders must have BOTH Targ AND Stark blood. If we assume Jon is L+R then he is No 2 Dany could be Rhaella plus Ned. (or Jon is). Think on this. Ned could have helped Rhaella to escape as he arrived in KL and saw what Robert tolerated. It fits with his personality eg trying to save Cersai. In such a case one thing might well lead to another as a grateful Rhaella clung to him - like Sam and Gilly. Dany was born just 9 months after the escape from KL. Any male that Rhaella encountered along the way could have been Dany's father. However i think Dany's MOTHER must have been a Targ - otherwise she could not have mothered the dragons.
  14. Since i do not buy into the theory that the CoF made the others, this thread makes little sense. The Others are just as much a threat to the CoF as to humans. I see there being two enemies to life - extreme cold and extreme heat - ice and fire. These two squabble but manage to destroy life on earth in the process. The CoF are all about balance. They support neither ice nor fire. There seems to be four "forces" that operate with magic. - 1. The fire realm of the Targs and dragons. Until the Doom of Valyria these forces were kept out of Westeros. Their worshippers are the Targs and the people from Assai and those who worship the red god 2. The ice forces represented by the "others." They have worshippers - CRASTER (we are told he is doomed to follow cruel gods). What other worshippers of these cruel gods are there? I suspect that the Bolton family are such but I am not sure. However I feel quite sure that the BOLTONS hate skin changers and everything that goes along with it. 3. The fertility forces- Summer and Winter - Garth Greenhand - King of Summer and the Starks King of Winter. The obvioys worhippers of these two are few now but the Manderlys stand out. the Stsarks seem to have forgotten. 4. The CoF and magic, worshipping trees and animals - nature. three and four could almost the the same. There are obvious places where However 3 and 4 must ally against 1 and 2. Now what of the Starks. We know that they have ruled from Winterfell for 8,000 years and in that time it may be assumed that they had brides from many houses. This the allegiance of the Kings in the North may have varied. If we JUST think of the various Brandons who were KiN (pretty sure that they are the significant ones) we have Bran the Builder, the legendary first King of Winter and builder of Winterfell and the Wall Brandon Stark (son of Bran the Builder), who might have designed the Hightower Brandon Stark (Breaker), a king known as Brandon the Breaker who defeated the Night's King These three seem to be old almost legendary Brandon Stark (Shipwright), a king known as Brandon the Shipwright lost sailing the Sunset Sea (what the hell happened to him>) Brandon Stark (Burner), a king known as Brandon the Burner who burned the northern ships - why - what scared him? Brandon Stark (Ice Eyes), a king known as Brandon Ice Eyes who defeated slavers. Npow I am going to assume he was part Bolton - with his ice eyes Brandon Stark (Bad), a king known as Brandon the Bad Brandon IX Stark, a king whom stopped Skagosi raids on the Bay of Seals Brandon Stark (the daughterless), a Lord of Winterfell in the legend of Bael the Bard There is another unknown Bran who was KiN since we have Brandon IX. There are huge differences between these Brandons. Not all Starks may have fought the CoF, however i have a suspicion that Brandon Ice eyes may have worshipped the Others along with his Bolton family. it may have been he who fought the CoF and the warg king.
  15. Obviously Jon is not a golden haired good looker like Jaime. he looks like Ned. But Ned had very low personal self esteem (Brandon was the star in his family - sorta like Sansa/Arya). However Jon had grown up with Robb and did NOT think Robb better than him. He seemed to have more personal self esteem than Ned. Instantly he is more attractive
  16. OK Obviously you are guys not girls. Give you a little secret laddies - looks (face hair) are NOT especially attractive to older women - girls grow out of liking Justin Beiber at about 16. What is attractive is strength - physical and mental - power and that odd combination of strength and kindness that is Jon to a tee. Jon is a strong boy (all that training), able to climb the wall, a bloody good swordsman for his age and a leader of men. Every bloody girl for miles would like him. power is the aphrodisiac.
  17. i have been doing a re-read and just discovered a very bitter sweet moment of foreshadowing. When old Nan is telling Bran the tale of the others there is a knock at the door Bran is scared and afraid but it is only Luwin with Hodor LOOMING are at the door. Now that I am aware that GRRM is an expert in Norse mythology it is clear that this foreshadows the story of Hodor killing Baldur (Bran). In mythology it is HODR who is King of Winter. He accidentally kills Bran after a bit of trickery. It has been obvious from the beginning that Bran is King of Summer (his wolf has that name), which was given only AFTER he chose to live after realising he must defeat whatever is in the heart of Winter.. On the bright side, both Hodr and Baldur emerge after Ragnarok to live together. Perhaps they will swap bodies (or share it).
  18. Ned had no expectation that telling Robert the kids were not his would lead to war. What could Tywin have done after his family executed. Would the Westerlands rise for Tywin? Perhaps jaime could escape and lead them too, but without an heir Tywin would have had a problem. In Ned's opinion the war had already started - this action may well stop it.
  19. Orphalesian I will grant you that Sansa DID show true courage when she rescued Dontos. It is her strongest act and again when she almost pushed Joffrey off the Tower. I am not entirely convinced that Sansa did not murder Joffrey. Tyrion thinks she did which is why he tipped out the wine.
  20. Hang on Ned only wanted to save the lives of the three children. He did plan to leave but was betrayed by Sansa and LF. As I say unwise but not dishonourable.
  21. Poor old Ned is a good character - he may not always make wise choices but he does make them for honourable motives. Since we do not know WHY he hid Jon's parentage from Catelyn we cannot assume he did it for wrong reasons. When he lied it was for good reasons. Even Sam broke his vow of chastity (thank heavens) Jon other than breaking his vows with Ygritte has done nothing wrong (yet) - he may have planned to ride to Winterfell but has not yet. I do not think Maester Luwin is a good man - or at least he was doing some wrong things albeit perhaps with what he thought were good motives. We do not know why Hodor lost his speech. He is of course the REAL King of Winter and Bran King of Summer.
  22. Winter daughter Each of our characters are faced with moral/ethical choices. Sansa has yet to really face one, but is perhaps about to re SR. We will know if she is good or bad depending upon her actions. If she assists LF to kill her cousin, she will be fully on the dark side, rather than just a scared mixed up teen.
  23. I am not a huge Sansa fan but i will certainly give her Ser Dontos as an act of genuine kindness and a little courage. He interaction with Sandor is complex but probably positive. I also do not think she has done anything wrong about Sweet Robin either - she was right and was behaving a a sensible mother/older sister to a Lord. He HAD to become strong and stay alive to get down the mountain. Lyssa should have sent him to Stannis or Eddard as a squire/page. Sansa is playing the sensible parent role . She is being Ned who let Bran climb despite the risks, rather than even her mother who left alone might have babied Bran a little as Lyssa did Robert.
  24. So far I see nothing to really redeem Sansa as a "good" character. She has taken no risks for another person and has turned a blind eye to many very wrong actions - Lyssa's murder, Marillon, Dontos's murder, possibly Sweet Robin, Joffrey's lies. She rarely thinks about her family, although we begin to see some awakening in the Snow Castle scene. She does not ask about Jeyne Poole or even if Arya has been found. I hope Sansa is on a redemption arc, but so far I have seen nothing to show that she is one of the good guys.
  25. It would depend upon the ages of other children, age of the Lord's wives and the capacity for other heirs to be born. If Bruno has a son then the marriage to Emily is worthless. Same for Bracken's heir. Also the preferences of the kids themselves needs to be considered since an unhappy marriage may produce no heirs. On balance the Frey girl is the best choice, but I would try to negotiate for Jason to wed Emily and Quentyn the Blackwood. I would ignore the Bracken deal - too many strings. if Candace is not too unhappy then Toby Mallister would be a good match. As to the idiot boy - suggest marriage to Willow. For a small folk girl this would raise her status and that of her family. promise a degree of protection for the girl should Benjy get uncontrollable. if that is not an acceptable option give lotsa money to Willow and family and lock Benjy away from future problems or ensure that he always is accompanied by a guard.