Luddagain

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  1. Some of this is spot on but not all. 1. Wylla is certainly significant and like you I agree that Wylla Manderly has some connection to Jon (and Edrik Dayne). Note that there was another Wylla (Fenn so probably from the Neck) who gave birth to a Snow via a Brandon Stark. 2. The Green hair is certainly a bit of a find - you may be on to something re her Targness and possibly who her mother and father is/was. 3. I do think that Aerys raped Ashara and her "stillborn" daughter was her child. However i think that she really had a son who is Aegon swapped willingly by Elia for her child. 4. I have another super duper wacky idea that Elia was keen to have her child "stillborn" because it was not a child of Rhaegar's. Rather I think it was Elia that Brandon played around with. (or Arthur Dayne). Such a child is too old to be Jon or Edrik or even Meera but could be the mysterious Allyria Dayne.
  2. This is possibly the most a-historical comment i have ever read on this site. Firstly children do not make the parents their heirs today or in the middle ages. It is assumed they will die first so making them heirs is not advised (try making a will for example) The whole point of an heir is to ensure smooth trouble free succession and naming Catelyn would be silly because she has no heirs. If she took a new husband you are suggesting that some child of hers by an unknown man or her nephew Robin should be the heir.That is beyond stupid and Robb may be silly sometimes but not that silly. Making her a regent is of course quite possible and even likely and had any one of Robb's siblings been alive then I have little doubt that he would have named her regent or co-regent.If Jeyne had a child then that too would be possible. I must admit I rather thought that GRRM would have actually have a plot line such that Catelyn herself was pregnant with a sixth child (it was hinted at in her first chapter) which would have been a nice confusing touch but he obviously abandoned the idea. However the idea that Catelyn would be the official heir to Winterfell is truly absurd. Not only would it go against the rules of inheritance in the South it obviously would breach the whole First men ethos of the North. Of course IF Robb or any of the Starks do have a child then that child is in a very powerful position potentially, being heir to both The North and Riverun (probably as I think Edmure is sterile - the whole floppy fish song). Now should Bran and Rickon have no heirs and should Sansa eventually marry Robin (or Harry the heir) her children would be heirs to THREE kingdoms.
  3. If you look at the companion world book there are as many races ethnicity as in our real world plus a few semi humans. Just about every nation on the planet gets a look in EXCEPT the Americas. We have Chinese, Japanese, Caribbeans, Greeks, Italians Scandinavians, Spanish, North Africans, Vikings Germanic peoples Celts pre Celts
  4. Skeletons 4 times in the first book by four different people. This is GRRM so it is BLOODY important. Why must there always be a Stark at Winterfell? Until you know the answer to that question you cannot sensibly rule it out. I thought it was a pretty clear assumption that "Must be a Stark at Winterfell" was strong tradition like cutting off heads by Lord and burying the dead in the crypts with a sword and a direwolf statue. I use the term Old Gods more generally to include all those matters that formed part of the Pact and also most of the stuff relating to the wall - and the 79 deserters etc. GRRM is really into bloodlines etc and a Tully is a Tully not a Stark. In any case GRRM's world is Europe in the middle ages and the one thing you can be ABSOLUTELY sure of is that wives do not inherit unless they are also in the line of descent. Even where they are regents it almost lays led to civil war and rebellion and the foreigner was hated. Catelyn has a strong claim to inherit Riverun if Edmure dies and I suspect she may also become the rightful heir to Harrenhall too. But she has no claim whatsoever to the North. Of course all power comes out of the barrel of a gun or int his case spears, swords, arrow and pikes. if Catelyn led a host of many thousands, experienced in Northern warfare she just might exercise such a claim. But in the absence of such - ho hum. However I think it is bloody obvious and has been since GoT that Catelyn will support Sansa for the "throne" of Winterfell against Jon/Rickon. Ned's thoughts foreshadowed this and it is very very clear it will happen. The breaking of Ice into two also foreshadows such a battle. In this case Sansa will be supported by an army from the Vale and probably with Cat's assistance also many of the River lords. The North will not support them. I suspect it will be to end that bloody ar that Bran will leave his cave and rule Winterfell passing it on to some descendent of Rickon, perhaps married to some descendant of Rickon and Jon and Arya and Sansa - all four perhaps. Bandon is now 9/10. He rules until he is 85 (like Walder Frey and the other aged Stark. In 75 years some great and great great grand kids of our Starks can inherit.
  5. What story are you reading. It is certainly not the Song of Ice and Fire. Recall we start the story with the ice Family - Starks and the fire family - Dany. The who GoT stuff and the Tully alliance is a big distraction and indeed may be the actual REASON that the Others have arisen again- probably not but still possible. There must always be a STARK at Winterfell. Catelyn is NOT a Stark. She cannot inherit by the laws of the IT OR the mystical rule of the Old Gods. ONLY if she married some other vague Stark relation - eg Karstark might it even be a vague possibility. She could of course be named regent, but after the Jaime business I doubt Robb would do that as she would not be trusted by the Northerners. He would name his unborn child as heir. If Robb were rational- which I think he is he would name for his unborn child three co-regents 1. Someone strong from the North but without a claim to Winterfell even indirectly - probably Great Jon or Manderley 2. Someone from his Tully side - Blackfish probably (he did not respect Edmure's judgement) 3. Someone wise who just cared for the Starks/Robb - Maester Luwin perhaps. He would look to marry his mother off to someone whom he trusted but would also be a strong ally. Someone from the Riverlands or Vale I would think. He might even name Arya as regent until such time as his child came of age, provided she was unmarried and lived at Winterfell. In the even of their not being an heir he MIGHT name Arya (if found alive) provided she never married and remained a Stark. This would prevent her being used as a pawn. He would need some time limit on finding her eg by the time she has her 12th name day However on the assumption that Arya is dead Robb would have no choice but to name Jon. However we must not ignore the mystical essentials - There must always be a "Stark at Winterfell." Who is a Stark. It must be assumed it is some sort of bloodline possibly via the male line but I suspect that it is a FEMALE line thing - or maybe a both male and female thing as it is with dragon riders. If Robb is wise then he would naturally name Jon but if Jon were dead or not available then who. The problem with the descendants of the daughters of Jocelyn Stark is that they are not of the North and he would not know if they were trusted, They may even be Lannisters. Indeed I am practically certain that the actual heir of Jocelyn Stark is little Walda Frey, (the unknown daughter) Harry the Heir (waynwood) or possibly horrible Courbrey. Horrible thought - it could EVEN be Littlefinger - we do not know who is mother or grandmother or great grandmother is. For this reason I think Robb would exclude all such descendants. He could go back through the family records I guess to find other lost Starks or Snows. There are an awful lot of missing Starks who may have had descendants. I rather suspect we will find many in the Company of the Rose and also in the blood lines of those beyond the wall. I will take a wild guess that Bael the Bard was a Stark descendant (this would be essential if Ygritte's tale is true and if male Starkness is essential for the blood line. Probably also Mance Raydar.
  6. As I noted on the other thread, the whole point of the heir stuff is that under Catelyn's view the actual heir would be in this order Possibly a Waynwood Unkown possibly non existant - could be harry the heir) Possibly a Corbray - Descendants of Perrara Royce who is obviously NOT named by accident Edwyn Frey Baby Walda Blackwalder Perra (baby) Walton Frey Steffan Frey Bryan Frey Fair Walda Descendants of Maegelle Vance
  7. If Robb named Cat as heir even as regent he would be showing himself a fool. Catelyn does NOT have a following among the Northern Lord nor any military strength. If and only if she married a Northern Lord could that work and that would pose other problems. He probably did name Cat as a co regent for any child of Jeyne's but he could very well have named Jon as co-regent or perhaps Maester Luwin or one of the Mormants. He might have nominated Blackfish as a regent, but he has never been to the North so not a good choice. As I have pointed out before Catelyn's folly in suggesting a Royce heir is essentially nominating Black Walder Frey as heir since I doubt that it is by accident that we are told that Walder Frey's first wife was Perrerra Royce.
  8. Medieval Britain was much warmer than today and wine was grown certainly in Southern areas. I see Dorne (at least initially as being warm like Cornwall. Not only were there bogs but the whole Neck is very like the mystical areas of Britain where druids hung out - marshy and boggy. The North seems very like Scotland/Scandinavia
  9. GRRM is a bloody good writer who does his research well. Westeros is Britain of the middle ages and Essos the rest of Europe and north Africa GRRM seems to have a specialist interest (obsession!!!) with medieval diet and feasts. He used corn on the general sense and would NEVER have introduced potatoes or tomatoes. So the things that actually have or eat will be those things that were available in medieval Britain. They have Linen but not cotton. Silk was known of although a great luxury. So it is not an accident that they did not have potatoes. I do not think that the is any new World at all in Planetos and nothing whatever of the Americas. We certainly can see the arctic lands and China, Japan, the middle east and India seems to be there if distantly. Southeros is Sub-saharan Africa and the Summer Isles i guess the Caribbean and Ultheros Australia and South East Asia.
  10. Given we now know Neanderthals are just a very divergent RACE not a separate species and that interbreeding did occur, I think we can confidently assume the the Ibbenese are pretty much the last of the neanderthals. For those of you who have not caught up on biology over the last 5 years the separate species neanderthal idea has been chucked out and we know that Europeans (and most Asians) have 1-4% Neanderthal contribution (not the same 4%). Only Africans have no ancestral neanderthal. Since this information was a pretty hot topic about the time the world book was written I think it probable that this has been built in. Not sure about those Denisovians though. GRRM is remiss!!!!
  11. In British history the great lords would have been Dukes and the next level down Earls and the rest just Lords or landed knights. Obviously Dorn are still called Prince and Princess. Tywin, Ned, and Jon would have been Dukes and their children referred to as Lord/Lady. Tully and Tyrell would probably have been Earls. Stanis and Renley would have been Dukes.
  12. I also feel that Robb Stark (and also Brandon) has a lot of similarity to the Lancaster boy Henry V and Jon (and Ned) a lot of similarity to John Duke of Bedford (Henry V's brother). Bran and Rickon could also sit in for the other two brothers - Humphrey and Thomas.
  13. Ian Dunross Catelyn had NO business arresting Tyrion or at least she could have arrested him and taken him to KL for trial. To do otherwise was stupid beyond measure. No I do not get the Jon hate. Sure some might see him as boring and a bit of a trope, but hating him seems absurd. Other than being a bit whiny as a 14 year old when forced to leave his home and live in a cold cell with rapists and murderers (effectively sent to jail for the rest of his life) he is pretty decent. He is arrogant at first but not as much as say Wymar Royce, and listens and grasps what Noye says. He then makes amends. It is hard NOT to have sympathy for any child raised as a second class citizen in a big house, where they are handled with injustice and unkindness. For Jon it is the treatment handed out by Catelyn, for Arya it is mostly Septa Morane but Catelyn a little. Sam Tarley his dad, Tyrion his dad. If we ever met them I might feel sympathy for the Frey bastards, or little Joy Hill. Even Jeyne Poole must have has a bit of a hard time being the second best to Sansa always.
  14. Sorry to shock you but LS IS Catelyn Tully - her REAL self. Being reborn sort of brings to the front the deep persona. Beric was a noble if foolhardy Catelyn is just a self centred woman. I can think of NOTHING that essentially distinguishes her from Cersei, other than bonking her brother. Both put their kids ahead of all others and are prepared to be cruel and murderous if necessary Cersei - Robert's kids, Catelyn Ned's son. Because Robert was a fool and weak she could get away with murder. Catelyn was more passive but essentially was hoping for Jon's death via NW. If Ned had been a weak man Jon would have been packed off somewhere with poor food and no care in the hope he would die as a small child. Catelyn as LS was prepared to murder poor little Podrik - a boy of 12. Ned would NEVER have condoned this, nor even Dany for all her savagery. Think on this. Rickard Karstark murdered two young squires (older than Podrik) and for this act of revenge, born of grief for his sons, Robb removes his head. Catelyn is prepared to murder Podrick for exactly the same reasons, but she has more sympathy that Karstark. why? Because she is a woman? Because she is a Stark? Catelyn committed an act of treason in releasing Jaime. There is no other word for it. Sure I can have sympathy for her in her grief, just as I have for Karstark, but I cannot pretend either is justified. I can forgive Arya her savage ways because she is a 10 year old child. The other two are adults who should know better. Catelyn's judgement and child rearing is just about as awful as Cersei's. She mishandles Sansa (spoiling her) and Arya (trying to manage by bullying - the feminine equivalent of Randall Tarley), neglecting Rickon in her guilt fueled grief for Bran, Neglecting BOTH Bran and Rickon in her desire to be Riverland player in the war. She trusts LF when she should not and her handling of Tyrion is nothing short of stupid - even more stupid then Brandon Stark. While she showed some skill in arranging the Frey marriage it could be argued that she really did NOT know her son Robb well enough. Lady Smallwood has lost her only son, but remained kind to Arya, not a vengeful demon.
  15. Ygrain Aerys and Rhaegar were not on good terms so Aerys was in no mood to allow Rhaegar to have his way. Indeed he was considering locking Rhaegar up. Remember Aerys was by this time batshit crazy. The hiding from Aerys idea makes SOME sense but you still have the problem of the Kings guard. They MUST have been there at the order of the king - unless - and this is a very, very, very big unless, those three HAD broken their vows and switched to Rhaegar. In that case perhaps they sort of chose to die at the ToJ, since having broken their vows to Aerys they believed they did not deserve to live - especially with Rhaegar dead.
  16. Ygrain Yes but the KINGS orders come ahead of the Prince. The KG must have been under orders from Aerys to protect/guard Lyanna at the ToJ. Why else for example did not Aerys call for his KG to come protect him.
  17. I think it is very, very clear that there was NO elopement and that BOTH Lyanna ans Rhaegar were held captive by Aerys. 1. The KINGS guard were defending the ToJ. NOT the Prince's guard. They could ONLY be guarding Lyanna at the order of Aerys. Sure they were Rhaegar's friends but they were sworn to Aerys not Rhaegar. 2. Aerys was paranoid about a plot and was very anxious to prevent the marriage of Robert and Lyanna because such a Stormlands/North alliance was a threat to the realm especially when added to the marriage of Brandon and Catelyn of the Riverlands. Recall they no longer had dragons so rebellion was a very real possibility. The link up with Jon Arryn would have added to the concern ie 3-4 realms united against the crown. Aerys would have been determined to prevent this hence the kidnap of Lyanna and the murder of Brandon and Rickard and the calling of Ned and Arryn to present themselves to be murdered too. 3. Aerys was paranoid about Rhaegar plotting too and I suspect he WAS. I think the crown of Blue Roses was a signal to the other plotters that Rhaegar was IN ie he would ally with the North, Stormlands and Riverlands against his father. Possibly both Dorne and Westerlands were also in on the plot. i suspect that Jon Arryn was NOT involved. 4. Aerys responded by kidnapping and imprisoning both Rhaegar and Lyanna 5. Recall we get our story from the very people who would NOT know the truth ie Ser Barristan and Brandon. 6. I suspect that there was plotting going on at Harrenhall with Rickard being the instigator along with Hoster Tully and possibly Tywin
  18. Lord Varys I am not sure that you can say that ordinary people did or did not practice polygamy. I imagine it is just like it is currently in Africa ans parts of the Middle East. To keep wives and children takes money so only those who were rich could take many wives.ordinary guys would take just one wife (if lucky) and a few who prosper as they age might take a second. I very much suspect that our concept of monogamy is a late addition due to spread of Christianity in Europe, not much else. Economics also is relevant. In herding and warrior cultures there is value in many sons and therefore there is no economic limitation on the number of children and therefore wives, other that the wealth of the "husband." Where they also sold the product of women's work - fine carpets and cloths there was even economic advantage to having several wives. In farming communities the value of women's work was higher - cooking, sewing food preserving, vege gardens, tending chickens and dairy work were all essential tasks that were usually done by women and there seemed to be a balance in time between women's work and men's work. However there was only really enough food per farm to feed one family not several wives. Just occasionally (Tibet) the climate is such that it takes two men to feed and keep one family and there polyandry is found. However in Westeros we really do not know what ere the marriage practices before the arrival of the faith of the seven. When did the concept of having "bastard" names arrive. Was it an Andal practice or a first man hangover? Did First Men chieftains and rich farmers practice polygamy? My guess is covered in the fabulous link https://nicoleevelina.com/2013/03/11/marriage-in-the-celtic-world/. The only issue is to what extent GRRM knows this stuff. My guess is he does so let us assume that First men marriage and legitimacy was pretty close to this Brehon law. By this law Jon is legitimate if he is Ned'd son OR if Rhaegar and Lyanna married via Old Gods rituals,. Even the Norse (eg Andals) practices polygamy so again we can assume that this was the norm in GRRM's Westeros, except where the faith of the seven was powerful. Was inheritance patrilinial or matrimonial? My guess again is that the matrilineal practices of Scotland would have been the ones practiced by people of the North. Thus being a Stark came via the MOTHER!!!!!! - this is very controversial but it would be a wonderful twist if it were true. Thus the King of Winterrole would pass from Uncle to nephew. .
  19. Lord Varys Quite so. However we must also consider that there are many different cultures (in our world and in Westeros) and therefore legitimacy is cultural . For example in some societies (eg Saudi) polygamy is permitted and any child of 10 or more wives may be considered legitimate (you can divorce easily so the wives change over from time to time). Order of marriage, age of the child and the power and prestige of the mother's family matter too, along with the personality of the son (it is always a son). However they are all "legitimate." In Westeros the Targs (as in Egyspt) practice polygamy and incest. The "church" is opposed but power ie dragons means that it is tolerated. As the power of the dragons waned so too did the Targ capacity to change convention wane. The other issue that always arises is when two cultures meet. We see it obviously in Dorne where the eldest inherits regardless of sex, but this is unacceptable in the rest of Westeros. In Scotland the real story of MacBeth and Duncan was over the order of inheritance ie matrilineal versus patrilineal. A similar problem arises when two kingdoms merge. When Torrhen knelt presumably he owed allegiance to the IT but what actual powers over his lands and people did he in fact cede. Rues of succession? religion? marriage rites? right of the first night? justice and sentencing? We can assume that some but not all of these powers were ceded but slowly, over time. We actually know NOTHING of marriage practices of the old Gods. Is polygamy accepted? What constitutes a marriage - do you need witnesses? This matters a very great deal in terms of legitimacy and inheritance. It matters a very great deal for Jon Snow. If for example under the Old Gods polygamy is accepted provided marriage sworn to a heart tree and the father acknowledges the child, then Jon is possibly legitimate - regardless of Robb's will. The other problem arises when a state chooses secession. Thus when Robb declared himself KoN he was withdrawing from a contract that he maintained was no longer valid. Indeed under feudal laws Robb owed NO loyalty to Joffrey, until such time as HE took an oath. The swearing of successors only works to an extent because conflict is always possible. After all Lords and Princes may well inherit property from two different realms an owe allegiance to two different "Kings" (this was definitely true of the UK Plantagenet on whom the Targs are based. That is why kings routinely demanded that all their vassals come swear personally in court (and leave a child as squire or Lady in Waiting - essentially a hostage).
  20. LML I have now read your green sears posts (or most of it) nd while I think it is very good i have quite a few reservations about just how far you can stretch the symbolism. Some od my quibbles are these: 1. First GRRM himslef - he is as we know a nerd who likes sci fi and studies the Nordic legends. I think we should asume that if in doubt about symbols it will be the Nordic ones that are relevant and to an extent the Celtic ones 2. The story is mostly about the British Isles and we should interpret (at least in the first three books) most symbolosm with that in mind and avoid too much overflow from other cultures 3. GRRM just does NOT seem to me to be a moon goddess sort of writer. He is swords and beheadings and rough sex ( a very male sort of writer) and mood goddess stuff is very female in style and thought patterns. I think GRRM does not do female characters nearly as well as male ones. A lot are a bit stereotypical. So while he does have moon goddess symbolism I would be cautious about stretching it too far. 5. GRRM did academic study of norse myths and I would bet my bottom dollar that any such course would have poured scorn on the various "wicca" ideas of neopaganism. My guess is that if it is not backed up with very good historical evidence then GRRM will have been careful not to accept it and use it. Mind you I did just notice that the term Gardner is used for the guys in the Reach and this was the name of the first high priest of Wicca so Hmmmmm! 6. I think that you are equating and confounding different mythologies and this leads to some confusion. For example while the horned god or to be precise gods associated with Rams and Bull and Stags and goats do appear in European mythology, their existence in Britain is less clear. I am careful about equating anything to do with Robert and the other Stag lords with horned lord mythology. As a war hammer wielding guy from the Stormlands with a bushy beard and of huge size, Robert is very much a Thor figure and his battles with Dragons rather akin to fighting the giant serpent. However I am not convinced via any evidence that Thor is the horned god. 7. The story of Herne the Hunter is relevant of course. 8. The green man stuff seems to me to be a bit of a GRRM add on and much more relevant to his later books than the first three. I am rereading and I may be wrong. However obviously GRRM has included the concept in his tale and Green men ideas are everywhere now. 9. The dying god stuff has been there from the beginning and is flagged early with Bran's wolf called Summer. Since bran hangs about with a character called Hodr and really named Walder (Baldur) and someone called Nan, I think we can pretty bloody obviously link Bran the the renewal of summer and the rebirth following a death of the corn god and of course to the tale of Baldur and Hoder. 10. I am inclined to the Jon Barleycorn idea. However I am not sure that Robb or even Ned were ever Kings of Winter.
  21. I I think that we can assume the visions go backward in time and that since the final vision is of a very young tree and therefore Bran sees the WHOLE history of Winterfell. Now I suspect that EVERY tree requires a human sacrifice in order to grow. The faces on the tree reflect the faces of the victim. Some will have been willing or semi willing sacrifices others will be people captured in war. Consistent with much ancient mythology I suspect that the "sacrifice" must be done by a woman (probably a priestess of some kind) with a sickle shaped blade. This is pretty bog standard "moon" mythology. Thus the person sacrificed is the spirit of Winterfell. He is probably a Stark and I suspect the women was also a Stark and that BOTH will be in the genetic line of the Starks - Certainly Ned and Jon, since Ned's mother was also a Stark and Jon's mother is probably Lyanna. As to which Stark it is unclear - except it needed to be a long long time ago - it could be someone at the time of the Long Night and the fight against Winter or it could be just say 150 years later to get to the Night King (only 13 commanders and say an average of 10-12 years each). I do rather suspect that the person sacrificed was named either Brandon Stark OR Jon Snow. For what it is worth I think that there is a bitter sweet foreshadowing of Winterfell's rebirth and a NEW weirwood tree. The human sacrifice has been made. Recall the final scene for Bran at Winterfell. A dying Luwin begs Osha for a favour. A wilding woman probably slices the throat of a willing but dying Luwin. In a sense he gives his life to allow Winterfell to be reborn. Recall that Luwin is one of the very, very few Maesters who has the link for knowledge of magic and the old ways - he seemed to believe in it when young but gave up on ot during his time as maester. This suggests (along with his name) that he was from the North and even a Stark. he could have been a Luwin Snow or even a Luwin Stark - one of the sons of all those missing Stark lines.
  22. I think we should be a bit cautious about reading TOO much into symbolism, especially where it relates to women. We should consider the personality of GRRM and the story HE is telling. Also whatever we come up with needs to be consistent otherwise we are saying GRRM is a lousy writer, which he is not. Now the FIRST thing when discussing this topic is to consider what we each think the weirwoods are and what GRRM intends them to be. For those dedicated to the heresy ideas they are evil etc but others (like me) will see them much more as a reflection of ancient tree worship with TWO key themes - Ygrasill of the Germanic Asgard legends and the "tree of life" idea of the Celts. The two are of course related and such tree worship was characteristic of Indo-European peoples stretching from India to Scandinavia. However drawing on these two key themes we have of course obvious Odin/Wodan references that are too numerous to discuss here. Bloodraven is so obviously an Odin figure that we must assume that all the other associations with this tree also are relevant. If we look we can find them. Wolves - all the Starks, ravens Bran and the NW, sacrificial hanging - Lady Stoneheart come on down, Val - seeress or Valkyrie. We have the hounds from Hel - the dire wolves and Shaggydog seeming to be a Fenrir figure. We have both the others from the ice world and the dead souls from Hel all coming to attack Asgard along with fiery sworded dragons (Dany) and probably a few giant serpents too (I think these are earthquakes which will destroy the world, OK so that is weirwoods with their Yggrysll symbolism, but there is ALSO the more celtic sense of weir woods as a life giving force - but this involves both LIFE and DEATH, summer and winter etc. Whereas i see the Westerosi of Andal origin very much following the idea of the weirwoods as a world tree I see the CoF and most of the Starks somehow connected to this aspect of the trees. It cannot be separated from the deep seated concept of the "dying god" involving death and renewal. This is a core duality essential to the seasons and sustainable life. Thus juxtaposed we have black and white, summer and winter, life and death and sky versus sea. The "greenman" is the essential symbol of this aspect . Garth gardener and the Greenseers are keys here. The connection of Arya as both black AND white - life and death seems obvious. Bran is SUMMER - he is renewal and he is also the reincarnation of the green man -taking over from BR. He represents the future. Who then is Winter. Here GRRM gives us a clue. In the dying god myths and practices of Europe at the Samhein festival (Halloween) they ritually killed the corn god sometimes referred to as a corn wolf - a WHITE corn wolf. His name was JOHN Barleycorn. I think we have it - John is King of Winter, Bran is King of Summer (the green man). Arya possibly is the balancing act - both life and death, however there are other possible dualities with her - sun goddess versus Sansa a moon goddess. Arya's associations are all with sun and sky related entities - Gendry the sun of a thunder god, Dondarrion the lightning Lord, Edrik from sunny Dorn (morning) and of course Nymeria who brought life to her people. Sansa by contrast is increasingly associated with ice and the moon. However supporting the idea of Arya being a sort of balancing act is the fact that she has strong water associations and in the celtic concept water is associated with death
  23. Crowfood daughter Yes all those Bael names relate to Beli etc - but of course so do the twin gods/heroes Balin and Balon who are middle ages personification of ancient deities ie the twin gods Beli and Bali (not sure of the second namel) but Beli was the father of Danu and also I think Arianhod. There is obviously a resemblance to the Latin word for war and also the concept of the twin gods found throughout Europe - Castor and Pollux. GRRM being GRRM I feel sure that these references are not accidental. From what I have read there is a sun god/sea god sort of association and also that threesome - sky, sea underworld - Zeus, Poseidon, Hades or in Celtic mythology. Gwyn ap Nudd is the son of Nudd (Llud) and is the ruler of the faery folk/underworld - also the white god. Both Jon and Bran seem to fit this character although the white connection points at Jon. He is the ruler of the "other world." He also loved his sister. He is the leader of the wild hunt with a pack of dogs. It is NOT the same to equate this character with Hades, but there is still an element of it - caves/weirwoods, Odin etc There are several sea gods in Welsh legend - Manawaden who is linked by name and family to the sea god Lir and is similar in parts to his Irish counterpart ManannĂ¡n, although they are also different. Based on the name alone I see Mance in this role and I see him as probably a Stark (son of Rodrick the wandering wolf ??????). Manawaden marries Rhiannon the horse goddess who loses or has a son stolen - (Mance could perhaps be the stolen son??????) or conceivably this is Jon with Lyanna as parents as mother. Lyanna is very definitely a Rhiannon type figure. Brandon has the personality of the missing son Pryderi - perhaps GRRMis giving a wave to FAegon too - who is very, very Pryderi like in his tale. Lyr is another Sea god but not much is known of him. The word means sea. He is the father of Bran the Blessed, Manawadyn and Branwen and possibly Rhiannon Dylan the son of Arianh=rhod is a sea "god" and his brother Lleu a classic sun god. Again I see the two babies - Mances and Gillie's in these roles.
  24. [probably has a relationship with her brother and bore twins - one a sun god and the other a sea god(Gwidion and Dylan)I quite like the Iron Island as Fomorian idea BUT there are a lot of people with Balor in the name - Baelor, Baelish and Bael the Bard. Definitely NOT accidental but I am not sure of the connection. Bael was not so much a king as a terrible warrior with a medusa eye ie turn you to stone. Mind you there is an obvious connection with Beli the war god (and presumably even the Roman "bellus" - war and of course the many words about anger and fighting that stem, While Irish legend is important I believe it is WELSH legend that is more important, especially in the North and probably in Dorne. There is of course a lot of overlap between the two. We have for example clear Arthurian references in the Daynes but take a look at the two key mystical Starks - Barn and Arya. Ban is named after the mythical hero Bran who became a para/quadriplegic after some battle (to rescue his sister Bronwen - Jon ref too?)) and stayed on living and giving advice to warriors for many years. He is associated with ravens and indeed the name means raven (Irish too). The second reference is Aria and she shares quite a lot of similarity with Arianrhod the goddess who gives birth to twins - a sea god and a sun god (Dylan and Lleu). There is a clear suggestion this was based on an affair with her brother Gwydion. She seems to be associated with death and reincarnation which is very Aria like. Her name means Silver wheel which may be a moon reference and according to one (very unreliable) source she is a moon goddess. To the extent that we associate characters with ancient deities I also feel that if the lords of the houses in the south are associated with various Germanic gods (Anglosaxon and Viking) three other Starks Ned, Robb and Sansa seem to represent the three hostage Vanir gods -Nudd, Fryr (lord) and Freya (lady). These three went south and only Freya survived. Catelyn has parallels with Skadi who marries Nudd almost by mistake thinking it was Baldur the beautiful (bit like the Brandon and Ned story).
  25. Crowfoot I am not so sure that the Merlin King and the Drowned god are one and the same - hence the connection with the iron born is not so clear. I am on record many times as saying that I think that each of the houses/people are associated with ancient BRITISH deities and that at least when he started GRRM as telling the tale of Rajnarok. The Southern Kingdoms (or their chief houses) represent the gods of the Romanised Anglosaxons/Vikings who settled the British isles with the seven houses associated with the seven gods associated with the seven planetary bodies, Thus: Stormlands = Thor with his hammer and Robert is a decidedly Thor like personality (Jupiter the father and thunder god). Before the Andals the first man god would have been the STORM god Westerlands= Tyw god of justice and war. Like Tyr Jaime had his hand bitten off. Mars god of war). but there is also a Nuada overlap) so some sort of warrior god - Nuada silver hand I assume, given Jaime's story The Vale = Mani the mood GOD. They were the first to join the Targs and also the first day of the week. Dorne = Sol the sun. They were the last to join the Targs and are the last day of the week The reach and the Riverlands BOTH seem associates with fertility and plenty and therefore with the GODDESS Freya (Venus as the planet). However the more ancient Garth Greenhands is very strong here too. the connection with Freyr and Freya (vanir gods held captive by Asgard) is strong This leaves two planets or Romanised gods Wodin and he who is not named (Saturn) and two Kingdoms as part of the IT. The drowned god seems a pretty good fit with the dark and nasty god of Saturday which in some part is not named. The Germanic god associated with Saturday and the roman Saturn and the planet is probably Loki. The Odin/woden similarities with Blood raven are so obvious that it barely needs repeating. However it is not quite clear if they are Andal ie Riverland gods or something older ie from the North. Once again since we can safely assume GRRM knows more about Nordic (and probably celtic) mythology that any of the rest of us mere mortals - he studied it an Uni- we can also not the similarities between the character of Odin/Woden and also the Celtic (ie first man) stories of Merlin or indeed other modern "wizards" Gandalf and Dumbledore who like Odin and Merlin combine warrior skills, great wisdom and extremely strong magic. Initially this was confusing because BR was of the Riverlands, but the WOIF book has made it clear that the Backwoods and hence BR is originally Northern, or perhaps is an amalgam of all - the Old gods of the North and CoF (weirwoods), the Celtic god of the Fist men eg Merlin and the Odin god of the underworld and also magic and wisdom of the Andals. This Odin/Wodin is the North which is entirely consistent with the good/bad living/dead/ underworld and normal world, Summer/winter that seems to hang about the Starks.