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About SFDanny

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  1. I can't miss it. I haven't paid my fees yet, but will soon. Plan to bring my daughter and my son as well. The City has to represent.
  2. Of course, everything is debatable. However, your position in this debate is to substitute your supposed better wisdom for Ned's stated concerns. Ned tells us there are secrets too dangerous to tell even to those you love and trust. He explicitly states he prays to never have to see what Catelyn would do if confronted with a choice between Jon's life and the lives of her own children. Your own feelings about how Ned could smooth over his relationship with his wife if he only told her Jon wasn't his son totally misses the reasons Ned is giving us. It is simply a bad argument. I'm glad you know how to look up a reference. I always include page numbers to make it easier, but you keep on trying to pin some nefarious motive for those obvious references. One can always quote more of the book, but in the search of brevity and in keeping on point it doesn't help to do so, especially when people are given page number references to show the truth of the quote. So, yes, this latest quote takes place during Ned's confrontation with Cersei. That is the reason Ned thinks to the dangers to his own children and to Jon's life. Cersei's children are in a similar position of peril if Ned goes through with his threat to reveal their true parentage. That in no way invalidates Ned's own thoughts about what he thinks about what Catelyn would do if her children were in danger and she could save them with giving up Jon's life. It is this section that is on point to our discussion, not Cersei's thoughts. My apologies to all, I have to leave to take care of family matters today. We are trying to get my mother's house ready for sale, and today must be spent on that business. I'll try to check in later tonight.
  3. I'm afraid that is precisely the case here. An excellent, concise post. I hope it makes more of an impact than mine.
  4. The test is not your faith that upon knowing the truth about Jon's parents that you think Catelyn would therefore protect Jon. The test is in what Ned tells us straight up what he thinks she would do, knowing the truth, if forced to choose between Jon's life and the lives of her children. Ned tells us that he prays to never find out what Catelyn would do in such a choice. He tells us that to allow Catelyn to make that choice is too dangerous. Dangerous in that she could perhaps make a choice to save her children by allowing Jon to die. Does that mean he doesn't trust Cat in all other things? No, it means this is secret that is too dangerous to tell her, and therefore he must continue the lie between them that Jon is his son. Ned tells us why he doesn't tell Catelyn the truth, and you ignore his reasons and call it mute. That doesn't make it so.
  5. You're missing the point of the quote. Ned is praying that he never has to find out what Catelyn would do if she is confronted with a choice between "Jon's life, against the the children of her body." This is not just some random hypothetical he is pondering because he got bored one day. He is praying such a choice never takes place because he knows it could happen and he doesn't know what Catelyn would do. This is not a manufactured possibility Ned brings upon himself. So, no, no, a thousand times no. You are asking the wrong questions. You should be asking who would want to kill Jon and why? Who has the power to order Jon's death? And why would Catelyn be forced to make such a choice between her children and Jon? The answers to those questions take us pretty quickly to King Robert Baratheon, his mania towards all things Targaryen, and the secret of Jon's parentage.
  6. You can, of course, put forward your theories that any of these three could have intruded into Jon's dreams and are responsible for this feeling by Jon that he has to go down into the crypts. My point was something different. My point is that Ned is not responsible for this dream. Ned is alive when we first learn of Jon's dreams. Nothing we know of Ned shows that the living Ned had such power. He had no access to a glass candle, and they were not working before the birth of Dany's dragons and the reawakening of so much magic in the world. So, while Ned would likely be the person responsible for any objects left in Lyanna's tomb, he didn't do so as part of a plot to get Jon to find them and reveal any secret. If Ned hid anything in Lyanna's tomb, it was done so in order to hide the object or to honor his sister. The dreams are from another source than Ned. To your speculation that it could be any of the three characters you name, I think we can rule out Marwyn and Quaithe. Again both of these characters abilities to intrude into dreams seem to come after the birth of dragons. Nor do we have any evidence they even know who Jon Snow is. Bloodraven is different. His magic is tied to the Weirwood trees and the Old Gods. He also has a history of speaking in dreams to Bran, Jon's half-brother, and this might be his work. What makes me doubt it is that the Three-eyed Crow first appears to Bran after his fall and near death. We don't know when Jon's dreams start, we only know that they predate Jon's meeting with Sam. It seems likely to me there are different sources for Bran's and Jon's dreams. Jon's dream need not be something that is initiated from an outside force. The dream, as we read it, is a story of Jon's struggle against his isolation and his bastard identity. He cries out in his dream that he isn't a Stark and this means he shouldn't be forced to go into the crypt. Yet, this is not a one off dream. It is recurring as we can tell by the start of his telling of it to Sam. "Sometimes I dream about it" says Jon, and so we know by the "sometimes" that it has happened more than once. Is this then Jon's struggle for his identity or is it Jon's magical connection to some one, something, or some secret in the crypts. You are more than welcome to put out your ideas here, but, again, I think we can rule out Ned as a source for Jon's dreams. I brought the quote up to prove that Ned's promises to the dying Lyanna were plural in nature, not singular as you kept putting forth. The quote proves it. And, no, this is not part of Ned's fevered dream. It is his thoughts as he rides from Chataya's brothel while he is wide awake and uninjured. You are simply wrong on the point. As to the rest of your assumptions, I think Catelyn is indeed a good and trustworthy person. I don't think that it is even a question that Ned trusts, and, yes, loves her. That, again, is not the question. The question is why does Ned refuse to speak of Jon's mother. Why does he keep this secret from even those he loves and trust. There is no question he hides this secret from everyone, with the possible exception of Robert. Why? The answer is given to attentive readers. Ned says some secrets are too dangerous to share even with those he loves and trusts. This then is one of those too dangerous secrets. How so? You are right that Robb's right to Winterfell isn't threatened by a claim by Jon if Jon is Rhaegar's child. The danger comes from Robert and all those who would use that secret and how Ned had kept it from the king all the long years of his life. If Ned lies to Robert about Rhaegar being Jon's father, then he has committed treason by hiding that fact. All of House Stark's loyalty to Robert is cast into question. The lives of all of Ned and Catelyn's children would be in danger if they too were part of the conspiracy to hide Jon's identity. So, when Ned thinks upon what Catelyn would do in just such a case we have our answer. As has long been noted here, Ned names all of his children but Jon in this list. He then places the choice in a question of what would Catelyn do if Jon's life were threaten and her children were thereby threatened as well. This then is the too dangerous choice with which he cannot entrust the wife he loves and trusts. Whether you think Ned should have told Catelyn Jon's secret or not is really immaterial because the story tells us Ned keeps this secret from her, and he also spells out why. It is a secret too dangerous to give to her because he doesn't know what Cat would do if she has to choose between the life of Jon and the lives of her own children. The why of that secret being too dangerous is the only real question. I'd submit that Rhaegar being Jon's father is by far and away the most likely answer to this puzzle. It almost certainly isn't because Wylla is Jon's real mother.
  7. Of course I named none of those people as being responsible for Jon's dreams. The old nameless gods of the forest are more likely candidates for outside forces who would intrude into Jon's dreams. Could it be an old greenseer residing in the weirwood network? Who knows? All we know is that Jon has the dreams and Ned didn't plan for him to have to open Lyanna's tomb to see whatever, if anything, is there. We know in his dreams he is being driven to go into the crypts. We interpret this to be a clue there is something there of importance. It's a likely interpretation, but we will see. Nonsense. You presume Ned can assume Jon's safety if he tells Catelyn, but he tells us specifically that there are secrets that must not be shared even with those you love. He tells us of his worries if Catelyn would be force to choose between her own children and Jon. Ned's reasons for not telling Cat are spelled out. You just think your reasoning for why he should confide in Cat is better than the character. My response is that if he was willing to risk Jon's life by telling others his story then we would be dealing with a very different Ned and a very different backstory. No, Ned recalls the promises he made to Lyanna and the price he paid to keep them. Look it up. It's here: Please note the plural. Sorry if I seem impatient, but this is basic stuff discussed many times in these threads.
  8. Jon is compelled by his dreams, not anything Ned has control over, to keep returning to the tombs. If there is something of importance there for him to see, it was never placed there by Ned for Jon to discover. It is some other force that directs Jon's dreams that is moving the story towards Jon's journey to Lyanna's tomb. Why would Ned hide objects there? Because they were important to Lyanna. Rhaegar's harp or the crown of winter roses he gave to Lyanna would fit this category. Or these objects holdsecrets that Lyanna must literally take to her grave. A letter to Jon might fit in this group of possible grave goods. If it is something that Ned cannot bear to destroy, and would tell Jon's secret to the world, then Lyanna's tomb is a very good hiding place. No one, including Jon, is expected to ransack her remains and discover the secret. He maybe forced by his dreams to open her tomb, but it isn't because Ned wanted him to do so. Don't be silly. Ned tells us clearly that there are some secrets one can tell no one. If Jon really is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, then it is a secret that threatens Jon, Ned, and everyone around them. The only way to protect all the people Ned loves is to not tell them anything about this most dangerous bit of knowledge. He certainly can't take a chance that Catelyn would have to choose between her own children and the life of Jon. All we know of Lyanna's dying words is her plea to Ned to "promise me" somethings - as in plural. Your attempt to say what those words were aren't exactly convincing. Many of us, for very good reason, think those words included asking Ned to promise to hide her child away, as Ned's own, from the wrath of others - including the new king of Westeros. Beyond that I wouldn't care to speculate.
  9. No hint that it exists anymore than most of your list, but a letter to Lyanna's newborn child written as she realizes not all went well in his birth. If such a thing did exist, then Ned would likely hesitate to destroy Lyanna's last words to Jon, but he also would want such a letter hidden beyond any causal viewer's curious gaze. Her tomb might be such a place.
  10. Just speculation, but given what we know of the politics underlining the tourney, the joust between the two men could mean much more than a simple tourney joust. Let's suppose it is Rhaegar challenging Brandon. Does he do so after Ashara is dishonored? I think so given Ned's account seems to be of the last day of a jousting competition that lasted longer that that. I have put forward the idea in the past that this is a response by Rhaegar to Brandon's use of Elia's lady companion, and Rhaegar's best friend's sister, to send a message to the prince's party. A message of contempt for Rhaegar's political subterfuge. Brandon's conduct with Ashara could well be his way of telling Rhaegar the Starks will have no part in his council to replace Aerys and put the crown prince on the throne. Brandon has no intention of leaving his father's arranged marriage to Catelyn in favor of Ashara, and the Starks have no interest in leaving the alliance with the Baratheons, Tullys, Arryns, and almost the Lannisters in favor of an alliance with Rhaegar's scheme. A rejection, not only of Ashara, but of Rhaegar as well. Does the joust come from Brandon's or Rhaegar's challenge? It likely doesn't matter because if Brandon is challenging Rhaegar it may well be part of the same message. I highly doubt the contest between the two is really just a simple tourney joust. Again, my speculation here, but I think every move the players in the game of thrones made during the Harrenhal tournament was scrutinized for its hidden, and not so hidden, meaning. Certainly Aerys did so. And I think Rhaegar as well if he really organized the event as way of bringing people together to remove his father. My take on Brandon is that he lets his pride dictate the way of his actions. The Starks had spent years building their alliance only to see Aerys move against it at the beginning of the tourney - with the induction of Jaime into the Kingsguard. The Starks and their allies must be livid. But most of the alliance Lords do not attend the tourney - only Jon Arryn and Robert attend while Lords Rickard, Lord Hoster, and Lord Tywin do not show. Instead they leave it for their surrogates to gauge the political winds and deliver their responses. Brandon in the case of House Stark. It is my belief that Rhaegar uses Lyanna to send his own message. Like Aerys with Jaime, he uses the facade of honor to say to the Starks and all the members of their alliance that he stands in the way of these ties. He sees the reaction to his attempt to remove Aerys peacefully and put himself on the throne, and judges that the alliance is a threat to Targaryen rule. He honors Lyanna, and at the same time says he won't let the marriage to Robert go through. He moves from a conspiracy to replace Aerys, to uniting with Aerys against the growing rejection of all of House Targaryen.
  11. It is likely Brandon challenged Rhaegar to the joust. It could have been the reverse, but the challenging of champions in the tourney is described in Meera Reed's tale of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. There is no doubt Rhaegar and Brandon jousted against each other at Harrenhal and that Rhaegar won. Just how did the hot-headed Brandon take his defeat is a question of much discussion in these threads.
  12. Sorry, I stopped reading after this claim. Neither are credible sources, and the numerous mistakes they have made have been discussed here many times before.
  13. @Ygrain I think the best evidence that Ashara is absent from King's Landing is in Ser Barristan's memories of her. It seems clear that Selmy thoughts on Ashara place her removed from him from the time of her disgrace to her seeming death. Selmy should have spent most of that time in King's Landing or nearby to do his duties to Aerys. Which would point to it being unlikely she is seen at court during the same period. We are talking about the late, late part of 281 until the sack in early fall 283. That doesn't mean she could not have traveled to the capital without announcing her presence in a way Selmy would not know. My guess is she is seldom in the capital unless she is doing work for those at the Tower of Joy, or Rhaegar and Elia. Pure speculation on my part, but for whatever it's worth. Let me know if you need more help on this. I'll be back late tonight.
  14. Not at home right now but what I remember is GRRM’s statement about Ashara not being “nailed to the floor” in Dorne. In addition there is evidence that Ashara was in King’s Landing as a lady in waiting to Princess Elia from sometime around Elia’s wedding to Rhaegar up to her having to leave in disgrace from that position after Harrenhal. Where she is during the time of the rebellion it seems to me to be purposefully quite hazy. But perhaps you are remembering a remark by Martin that I don’t recall. Quite possible.
  15. I suspect you are right!