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  1. R+L=J v.157

    First off, welcome to the boards! Keep reading and keep contributing. I'll add a couple of thoughts to your questions. When Ned thinks back to his promise to Lyanna he uses the plural "promises" not the singular. So we know there is more than one promise Ned made to her and he thinks of the price he paid to keep them. We don't know what those promises were, but many of us guess they centered around keeping Jon safe and hidden away from those she thought might harm him. The example of what just happened to Rhaegar's and Elia's children may well have loomed large in her fears for Jon. We also know she was dying with a fever and blood loss, so it is likely this isn't a long conversation between siblings. Only the most important plea to Ned is going to be going through her head as she dies. Something like "Promise me, Ned, to take him and raise him as yours. Promise me never to let Robert or anyone else harm my child." I don't think prophecies are likely to have entered into the conversation. Or whether or not she married Rhaegar. Or a host of other topics that would be important for Ned to know, but for which there just isn't time to communicate.  My guess. For Ned those promises, if those are the ones he made, are ones he kept. He raised Jon as his son, and he protected him from all who would do him harm, especially from those who would do him harm if they knew he was Rhaegar's child. We just disagree about Ned's view of the Wall. For Ned the Wall is an ancient tradition and monument to the North, but he hasn't a clue the Others are returning. The wildlings are the greatest threat coming from the North Ned knows of when he sends Jon north under Benjen's protection. His fear is to keep Jon as far away from the Lannisters, and from Robert, as he can. He does so. It is an open question if he really wants Benjen to allow Jon to join the watch, but we know Ned doesn't have the same fears for Jon's safety while he is in Benjen's company. To your side question, Martin tells us Ned named Jon, so it is likely he is named after Jon Arryn. Was there another name Lyanna or Rhaegar gave him? We don't know, but if Rhaegar wanted him named after his best friend it would have been "Arthur" not "Jon." My guess though is that because Rhaegar was driven in part by prophecy, at least in the role he thought his children would play, he thought he would have a second "Visenya" on his hands rather than a son. As already has been pointed out, Jon is a name used by the Starks in the past, how many "Jon Starks" there were before Jon Snow, we don't know, but it not an unusual name in the north. Once again, welcome.  
  2. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    What Ned is certain of is what he says before "It was not a question." He knows going in that the children are not Robert's. He suspects they are Jaime's. He asks the question, "your brother or your lover?" because of his suspicion and Cersei confirms it. She also confirms their involvement with Bran's attempted murder. He then makes the statement, "All three are Jaime's" telling her he knows the children are not Robert's. The reveal is that, other than admitting to killing Jon Arryn, Cersei admits to all of Ned's accusations. Accusations based on solid evidence, and on educated guesses.
  3. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    Kingmonkey, before going over some of the same ground again, may I point out an important fact you keep leaving out about Ned's "leap of logic" to guess Jaime is the father of Cersei's twins - he isn't the only one to draw this conclusion. Stannis Baratheon draws the same conclusion Ned does independent  any contact with Ned. Davos even asks Stannis if he has any "proof" of the charge, but Stannis goes on about Edric Storm as a proof of a sort. A proof that has everything to do with Cersei being unfaithful but nothing to do with Jaime being the father. Obviously, Stannis makes the same sort of leap in logic Ned does. Are we to now assume that Stannis must have some experience with "Baratheoncest" for him to have made this leap? Is there some sort of pandemic of incest going on amongst the High Lords of Westeros? Or is it just that once one deduces that Cersei has been unfaithful to Robert and that her children are not his, then guessing who the father is really isn't that hard after viewing the twins for an extended period of time? Why does Ned make this "leap of logic"? I think we have been given the reason. We see through Ned's eyes how he views both Cersei and Jaime. We know Ned's distrust of the Lannisters from almost the very beginning of the book, and his distrust of Jaime just continues to grow. We learn of Ned's encounter with Jaime on the Iron Throne, we know of his distrust for Jaime for his violation of Kingsguard oath in killing Aerys,  we know of Ned's suspicions concerning Jaime's involvement in trying to kill Bran and have an assassin finish the job, we know of his fear that Jaime or the Hound will find Arya, we know Ned blames the Lannisters for Jon Arryn's death, we know he fears for Robert being murdered in the melee from Lannister plots, and we know Ned witnesses Jaime's lesson with Jory and Wyl. On and on, we are shown why Ned hates and distrusts Jaime Lannister, and how he believes the twins to be part of plot to take over the kingdom, and in the process kill people he loves. The question becomes not why would Ned's guess be that Jaime's the father of Cersei's children, once he has solved the question of her infidelity, but but why would he not suspect him first? Lastly, and once again, I'd ask you look at the scene of Ned and Cersei in the godswood. It is clear from the scene Ned guesses Jaime is the father, and it is clear that he knows as a fact Cersei has been unfaithful. Ned lays his suspicion of Jaime out as a question, that Cersei then confirms. There really isn't more of an explanation needed here. Certainly inventing "Starkcest" is not needed to explain the scene.
  4. Caution is always good, but doesn't mean evidence = no evidence. We have evidence that points to Rhaegar hiding such as Aerys being unable to find him after the removal of Lord Merryweather from office. That along with other clues makes a strong case for Rhaegar hiding from his father, from the Starks, the Baratheons, and others. But, of course, you know that. In this case mistaking pulling wild scenarios out of the air and equating them with scenarios with strong support is the greater problem. I'd urge caution in going down that road. Besides, there is nothing incompatible with being a country boy who loves the song of birds with the need to hide out from people, some of who want to kill you.
  5. I suppose one could speculate the Daynes enforce her silence on the threat of death, but then that doesn't jibe with giving her the care of young Lord Ned does it? Why would the Lannisters or Robert or Varys or any other foe of Ned Stark think to harm her? They want her alive to testify to the truth, if she will do so. Think of Shae only much more valuable. The Lannisters alone would make her a wealthy woman for the rest of her life.
  6. Of course, there can be a difference between what the people of Starfall believe, and what the then Lord and Lady of Starfall know to be true.
  7. The problem with your hypothesis, Weirwoods Eyes, is that the people of Starfall think Wylla is Jon's mom. That's not possible if she is already at Starfall, not pregnant, before Ned arrives with the newborn Jon. I agree Wylla doesn't have to have been at the Tower and to have been an eyewitness of the events there, but she has to either arrive with Jon, or give birth to him in Starfall for the people there to accept the story of her being Jon's mom. As to her being brought in after the birth as a wet nurse, I think it likely she was brought in earlier. Having a maester and a wet nurse at the birth of noble children is the norm we see in the story. It is true the Tower of Joy is not the normal place for such births to take place, but the party would have months of preparation time for the birth. It is not hard to see that getting both a maester and a wet nurse, and possibly a midwife, before the birth was expected would be a priority for the party. Was Wylla that wet nurse? We have no way of knowing for sure, but it is likely as well. Something other than just money, I think, needs to explain Wylla's loyalty to Jon. There is a bond between them that she feels, and I think explains her standing by the story she is his mother over all these years. Either that bond is really a maternal bond between mother and son - unlikely imho, or there is a history between Wylla and Jon, or more likely between Wylla and Jon's parents, that goes beyond just a few weeks or a few months as the baby's wet nurse. As to primary sources for the Tower of Joy events, our best bets are still Howland Reed for the battle and later, and Wylla the wet nurse for before and after. I will add my own favorite candidate of Marwyn as the maester in attendance to Lyanna, and the Lady Ashara Dayne as the person responsible for Ned's safe passage to Starfall from the Tower. Of course, I think the Lady Ashara is still alive.
  8. Small Questions v. 10104

    Is it a port? Maybe. It sure sounds like it could be. Boats must be able to go to the island. How large of ships can reach Starfall is an open question.
  9. Rhaella as Quaithe from Radio westeros

    Ser Barristan is sworn to protect Viserys and even though Ser Willem Darry has taken over his personal protection while the rebellion rages Selmy makes no effort to ever get to his new king. The unsaid part of this is he also abandons the new born Daenerys to a life without his protection. Yet, even though Ser Willem was alive, Dany views Selmy's decision as abandonment. So,what would be Daenerys's reaction to learning her mother left her and her eight year old brother on Dragonstone, right before the rebel forces land, and right after the greatest part of her protection, the Targaryen fleet, is destroyed? Do you think Rhaella telling her she needed to go study some old prophecy would wipe away the pain of that abandonment? I don't. Do you think the fact Ser Willem was alive when Rhaella left, makes Dany less needful for her mother's love and guidance. Again, I don't. I also don't think that means your scenario is false. I just think for it to be true means we need a lot of explanation of why Rhaella makes the decision to leave. That decision doesn't have to based on honorable reasons such as Rhaella being the only one who can complete a mission to Asshai. It just has to be based on believable reasons. I raised the question of whether or not Rhaella loves Viserys and Dany. Given the similarities of Viserys to his father, it is possible Rhaella would not even want to see this son win the throne. Given the way in which Daenerys was conceived, it is possible Rhaella can't see her newborn child without thinking of Aerys's rape and brutality towards her. I don't know if any of that is true, but Martin has given us reason to question what are Rhaella's feelings towards her remaining children. We need something like this to explain her decision. Nor do we know the need Rhaella would feel to travel to Asshai and to learn more concerning prophecy. Why her? Does she share with some of her kin the ability to see, or perhaps to put it more correctly, to dream into the future? We don't know she does, but it is possible. What then is her dream that makes it imperative that she, and no one else, goes to Asshai? If your speculation is true and Marwyn goes with her, why can't she just tell him the dream that necessitates her journey? There is just too much here we don't know. Which may be my main reason for hesitating in embracing your theory. This isn't just an interesting side story. There would seem to books worth of material concerning this idea needed. It is much more simple if Rhaella just died giving birth, and she just remains a name in the background. "The story grew in the telling" says George often quoting JRRT and this would be one area it has lots of room to grow. Anyways, my thoughts. I'd love to read your response, especially regarding the tie in of this idea the source the Daenerys's dragon eggs. btw - I have long believed that Marwyn is tied into the events of the Rebellion. I've advanced the idea that he is a maester in attendance to Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. Not only because high born ladies have maesters with them when giving birth, but also because Marwyn fits the profile of a man who would be part of Rhaegar's entourage with his expertise in all things magical. So, I like your idea he could have been the maester on Dragonstone for all the same reasons. Still like my idea better, but yours is good as well.
  10. R+L=J v.157

    The old anthropology major in me thinks about the fluidity of language and how it changes over time and from place to place. One of the great courses I had to take in my old university days was in Linguistic Anthropology in which people spent their lives measuring the differences of language from one small town to the next. From that perspective, there is no real life correct answer to any of this.
  11. R+L=J v.157

    I agree. 
  12. R+L=J v.157

    I can do so, but what would it prove? Only that the people I know think it means "x." It doesn't disprove your contention or prove mine.  Let me give you another example. I've done some study of character ages over the years I've been on these boards, and in that process you find seeming contradictions in the text. One of these seeming contradictions happens with phrase used for the same purpose as the "close to" this discussion is about - that is Martin's usage of the phrase "all of" to describe Tommen's age at different times in the story. Does "all of" mean "about" or does it mean "almost"? Well, I was kind of excited because I thought I could prove it means "almost" in Tommen's case and, if so, make a conclusion about Jaime's description by Robert at the sack of King's Landing. The usage of the phrase in relationship to Tommen, could indicate the usage of the phrase in Jaime's case means he was younger than I thought, sixteen instead of seventeen. I was wrong. Tommen's age is right when "all of" means "almost" but Jaime is seventeen by the time of the sack, not still sixteen. All of which is to say, the proof of the meaning of phrases in Martin's work needs to be found, not in your personal experience or in mine. Nor is it to be found in "experts" of the usage of American English idioms, but in the books themselves or in further information from the author. We have to further narrow down the ranges for markers within the history of Robert's rebellion. The answer, it seems to me, is in looking relationships between established markers, instead of phrases like "close to" or "all of" - these phrases are only useful in a more general sense.
  13. Heresy Project X+Y=S+L=J

    "Whenever someone proposes a reasoning for Ned, be it hatred of Jaime, reference to Targaryen incest, Jaime's presence at Winterfell, or the idea I suggested here -- they are guessing, because it's never stated in the text that this is what prompted Ned." What is the difference between those three proposals? The difference is that there is a huge build up of the antagonism between Ned and Jaime in the text prior to Ned's guess, there is also the establishment of Targaryen incest as a fact practice in the history of their rule, or the simple fact of Jaime's presence at Winterfell, and in the case of your proposal of Stark incest there is - what? There is your proposal and nothing else to support it other than your contention that there must be something more to explain Ned's deduction. kingmonkey, I'm not disputing that they are all guesses. I just think saying all of these are all just guesses misses the point. There is evidence supporting three of those guesses, making them more likely. Your guess is extremely unlikely because it has nothing that suggests the existence of Stark incest between Lyanna and any of her brothers or her father. There is a reason, kingmonkey, why I referenced Sherlock Holmes and Perry Mason. They are two characters in detective novels who use very different methods of discovering the "who dunnit" of the crime. Ned is not modeled on either one. We don't expect Ned to give us every step in his deductive process to explain how he reached his guess that Jaime was the father of Cersei's children because it isn't the same type of novel that the detectives inhabit. In fact, in some ways, Ned is operating in the same type of mystery as a Colombo story - the reader knows who did it. We know there is incest going on between Cersei and Jaime from very early on from Bran's discovery. It isn't a story we need spelled out. We just need to know that Ned has guessed the fact and is finally catching up to the reader. Does the story suffer because he makes a guess, and that guess is right? I don't think so. If this was Sherlock, again, we would likely feel that the author had departed from the detective's deductive process, but we have no reason to think Ned thinks like Sherlock, and there is no reason in the story to assume he must.  What Ned has in common with Perry Mason is that the lawyer always solves the case through putting the suspects under his "withering" cross examination. In this case that is reduced to asking Cersei to admit her crimes before the Godswood. Not exactly Perry's modus operandi, but as close as we can get with Ned. But even if we, for the sake of argument, accept the idea there is incest going on in the Stark clan, it doesn't mean Jon is the product of that incest. If we want to talk about deductive leaps without support, then we have to acknowledge this conclusion is just that - without support of evidence. In fact all the evidence points the other way. It suggests that when Jon is conceived, Lyanna is separated by death from her Father and Brandon, and is very likely separated by many, many leagues and by warring armies from Ned and Benjen. It is only the wildest of speculation that can conjure up how either of her two living siblings could have come into contact with her during the time in question. Again, while we have the least of evidence surrounding Benjen, we have some evidence that he was in Winterfell at the time of Ned's return, and we have the author's remarks to point to him taking on the role as the Stark in Winterfell during the rebellion as likely meaning just that. With Ned the speculation getting Lyanna and him together is even wilder and crazier than with Benjen because we know where Ned was during many points of the rebellion and being near Lyanna just doesn't fit with those facts.
  14. Rhaella as Quaithe from Radio westeros

    Yes, I have. Don't know if your post is directed towards me, but just to answer on my part, yes, I have listened to the podcast more than once, in its entirety.
  15. Rhaella as Quaithe from Radio westeros

    My guess as well. Love Radio Westeros, but I have a very hard time seeing Rhaella abandoning her children to only Ser Willem's protection. One has to imagine her looking at a situation of just having given birth to Daenerys and seeing the last bulwark of Targaryen power destroyed in the storm, and then deciding "oops, time for me to leave!" Not exactly mother of the year kind of stuff. Now, to be fair, Rhaella may hate her children. Given the hell Aerys put her through, she may not have any maternal feeling towards them at all. While, if that's true, it gives her an interesting twist of her character, it isn't a particularly sympathetic twist. It's hard to see the hypothetical action of her running away, as anything other than the most selfish terms. "Take my children, while I hide in secrecy and supposed death." After all the situation on Dragonstone after Dany's birth is rather dire, and if Ser Willem isn't successful in smuggling the children out, the chances of their survival is close to nil. Does all that bring her back in regret and with a mask to hide her tears? I don't know, but Martin has to write a hell of a backstory to explain this one, if this theory is true. While I'm quite hesitant to endorse this theory for all the above reasons, let me just add one reason it holds that makes me want to jump on the bandwagon. The eggs. I have never believed Illyrio just gave the dragon eggs to Dany in some excessive gesture of extravagant wealth. He sure didn't give them thinking they would hatch. Which gives me pause to wonder who is really behind the wedding gift? Rhaella, alive and regretful, working through an intermediary (the brother of the Archon of Tyrosh?) would explain it. So would other characters like Shiera Seastar, but it is, to me, a huge plot hole left as yet unexplained.