SFDanny

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  1. Sorry, I stopped reading after this claim. Neither are credible sources, and the numerous mistakes they have made have been discussed here many times before.
  2. @Ygrain I think the best evidence that Ashara is absent from King's Landing is in Ser Barristan's memories of her. It seems clear that Selmy thoughts on Ashara place her removed from him from the time of her disgrace to her seeming death. Selmy should have spent most of that time in King's Landing or nearby to do his duties to Aerys. Which would point to it being unlikely she is seen at court during the same period. We are talking about the late, late part of 281 until the sack in early fall 283. That doesn't mean she could not have traveled to the capital without announcing her presence in a way Selmy would not know. My guess is she is seldom in the capital unless she is doing work for those at the Tower of Joy, or Rhaegar and Elia. Pure speculation on my part, but for whatever it's worth. Let me know if you need more help on this. I'll be back late tonight.
  3. Not at home right now but what I remember is GRRM’s statement about Ashara not being “nailed to the floor” in Dorne. In addition there is evidence that Ashara was in King’s Landing as a lady in waiting to Princess Elia from sometime around Elia’s wedding to Rhaegar up to her having to leave in disgrace from that position after Harrenhal. Where she is during the time of the rebellion it seems to me to be purposefully quite hazy. But perhaps you are remembering a remark by Martin that I don’t recall. Quite possible.
  4. I suspect you are right!
  5. LM, perhaps we disagree on this as well. To me "canon" only means what appears in the books Martin has designated as canon. It does not mean it is true or factual. We agree there is enough contradictory information in the canon for a reader to have very good reason not to believe Ned's naming of Wylla as Jon's mother in response to Robert's question is a truthful answer. It is a simple fact that Ned does so in A Game of Thrones - a part of Martin's ASoI&F canon. "Canon," it seems to me, clearly does not mean "true."
  6. I think you and I have a very different view of what "canon" means, LynnS. Canon, to me, is not the same as "true" or "fact." It only means what appears in the works Martin has described as "canon." There are a lot of things in the canon that are lies, red herrings, false clues, or the like. So it is canon that Wylla is Jon's mother. I think that is false, but it's canon. So it might also be with all the clues that point to Jon being Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. I think it unlikely, but I've been wrong before. My view is simple. When Martin writes the reveal of just who are Jon's parents we still can continue to argue endlessly whether or not it is true. Even then it may be better to wait until the series ends (book 7 or 8 or ...?) and then decide what are the facts. What happens in the show has nothing to do with any of this. I think on that point we certainly agree.
  7. It should be corrected now. Thanks.
  8. It is an interesting question who the High Sparrow will end up supporting. I lean in the direction of a Faith of the Seven nationalist state. Governed by the High Sparrow himself. Why should he support any of the other claimants? I could see the Faith uniting behind Stannis if he hadn't cast his lot with R'hallor. Now? None of the contenders for the throne is pure enough for the High Sparrow. More likely he rules as both Lord Protector and High Septon.
  9. It is good that you don't expect to find confirmation of an agreement between Targaryens and the Faith outlawing Targaryen polygamy in this history. You won't find it here. Hopefully we will get the first volume of Fire and Blood along with The Winds of Winter next year and we can look for it there. Until then we shall have to disagree that Jahaerys's honorific points to any such agreement. What Robb Stark has to do with the Targaryen custom of polygamy is beyond me. What he can or cannot do has to do with his own traditions and customs, not those of the dragonlords.
  10. LV, if I misunderstood your previous comments, my apologies. I had thought you were more accepting of the possibility of such agreements having occurred, but I stand corrected. I don't disagree with any of the cited paragraph above, with this one exception. I do think there is an understanding reached by Aegon and the High Septon who crowned him that his marriages to his sisters and any children he has with them are seen as valid and legal. Aegon wasn't setting up a Targaryen dynasty that lasted the length of his life only. By accepting his rule over Westeros, the Faith accepted his family and their future rule as well. The fact the Faith continued to preach against other such marriages and saying the children resulting from them were "abominations" doesn't preclude the fact they accepted them in the case of the Targaryens. That a new High Septon tried to seize the opportunity presented to him by Aenys's weak rule to change the balance of power towards the Faith doesn't negate the fact that the entirety of Aegon's rule is one of acceptance by the Faith of his marriages and his sons and grandchildren. I would put it a little differently. It seems that in a feudal society in which social mobility is frozen by birth, or nearly so, that there is always a need for the dispossessed of the peasantry to find a place in such orders. Or risk outright rebellion in times of crises. The difference between the Poor Fellows and the Kingswood Brotherhood is only the difference of a Septon's blessing. The Faith is never ok with Targaryen customs. In the wake of the Conquest, they agree to give their backing to Aegon's power and to ignore the conflict between those customs and the Faith's own traditions. They continue to ignore the contradiction until a new High Septon sees an opportunity to test the power balance anew. Or that is how I see it. I would only say about your statement about what prince can get away with, that it depends entirely on the King and the Prince in question. Does the king support the prince in "getting away" with what the prince is doing? Does the prince have an organized power base of his own? I do agree that being king can make a huge difference. While interesting, your point about the Starks really isn't precedent for what the Faith would accept. As worshippers of the Old Gods, the North's marriage customs are their own and the Faith's blessing on them hasn't been a issue for thousands of years, so why would what the Starks do represent the orthodoxy of the Faith in Oldtown? I do agree that the High Septon's letter and his suggestion of his niece as a better wife for Prince Maegor is more of a power grab on the Hightower family's part than a question of what constitutes incest. My only objection is that the Faith also clearly accepts Aegon's rule, the rule of both of his sister/queens, and Aenys's rule despite the contradiction between Aegon and his sister's marriage and the Faith's clear taboo on polygamy. The power of Aegon and his dragons keeps this contradiction between the Faith's dogma and the real world alive, but unresolved for decades. Open bloody war finally resolves this in favor of "Maegor's dictum" - "the strictures of the Faith might rule lesser men, but not the blood of the Dragon."
  11. Just finished my first read of TSotD and I'm quite happy to have new ASoI&F material to discuss. I have to say I see absolutely no evidence here that there was an agreement between Aegon, Aenys, or Maegor with the Faith to limit Targaryen marriage customs either in the area of polygamy or in what the Faith considers to be incest. To the contrary, we are told the following: A new kingdom that had grown through the years of Aegon's rule to accept the Targaryens did these things differently. The closest to any agreement we see is a communication between the High Septon and Aegon about Visenya's proposal of a marriage between the twelve year old Prince Maegor and the new born Rhaena. Not only is there objection to the marriage from the Faith, but also from Rhaena's parents, Prince Aenys and Princess Alyssa. With the suggestion of Ceryse Hightower as an alternative bride, Aegon agrees to this second match for Maegor in an attempt to keep the Faith's support. But here it is important to note that this concerns incest, not polygamy. We know from the wedding of Aenys's children that there is no support for a ban on such marriages that the Targaryens have agreed to. I could go on, and if LV or anyone wants to dispute my reading of the text, I will happily do so. Loving to finally discuss new Martin material.
  12. Completely agree!
  13. How would Lysa know of Petyr's supposed sexual encounter with Cat? Complete with details including how he called her Cat during the tryst? Would Littlefinger refuse to believe it? Maybe. But I like to think of Sansa telling him this as she has just put the dagger in his back he so richly deserves. Doesn't mean I'm right. I think some of the Starks, at least one, will have to meet Lady Stoneheart. Perhaps that includes Littlefinger. I'd like him to explain his role in Ned's death to any of them.
  14. So true. Not only is it the many long discussions with others over the ten years I've been doing this, but it also the changes those ten years has brought on my ability to remember as well as I could a decade ago. I'm getting old. I don't think we are disagreeing here. The last thing I want to suggest is that Ned doesn't change over the course of his story in A Game of Thrones. It is not just in the backstory that we learn of those changes, but we see them in his character as we read his point of view chapters. Certainly, we get a dissonance between the story of the ever honorable Ned who would never lie or do wrong with the Ned who has mysterious secrets that he continues to hide from all others. But we also have Ned change as he is challenged by his circumstances. A large part of this is the dangers he sees for his children, especially his two daughters he has brought with him into a nest of vipers. And part of that change takes place over how he deals with those vipers. I think that also includes how his views change towards his dead sister, brother, and father over the years. So, when you rightly point out how the brothel scene makes him evaluate Rhaegar and Lyanna again, I agree completely. I would only add a scene which is one of my favorites in the books that includes the reference to Lyanna's wolfish character. What happens here is Ned being forced to think of his sister's character through the conduct of his youngest daughter. I think Ned giving needle back to Arya and arranging lessons with Syrio reflects not only a rejection of Rickard's path with Lyanna, but a reevaluation of that history. Ned doesn't break Needle over his leg as he threatens, but decides to help Arya in her choices of what she wants from life. He is determined to break the cycle of pain that old traditions and old schemes cause to the children in his life.
  15. Sansa knows as well. Lysa told her