SFDanny

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  1. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    FC, I appreciate your views here, but understand they are your own bias is showing here about fidelity and what marriage is all about. I will absolutely say I have my own bias on the subject, so I'm not about to criticize yours. What i will say is that we are dealing with is very unique fantasy situation between two or three characters that may or may not share either of our views on the subject and what we are talking about is what possibilities we can glean from what little we know about the two. In particular we have to throw the issue of polygamy into the equation, not because either of us thought up the need to based on the real world variations of love and marriage, but because the author presents this as a possibility. The text shows us of this. No one is bringing it up to further an agenda or make anyone feel uncomfortable. It is just something that would be wrong to ignore.
  2. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    Very seriously. What do premarital sex and pregnancy have to do with concerns about infidelities? Nothing. As to the fact Rhaegar is married already, I agree if she is worried about Rhaegar going back to Elia's bed then she has a concern that she should address before getting sexually involved with the man, but we know this is a political marriage, not one based on love. What was the word Ser Barristan used to describe Rhaegar's feelings for Elia - fond, I think. We know Elia's health concerns about further pregnancies. Elia may well not want Rhaegar in her bed anymore, and only want a paper marriage. What she needs from the marriage is certainly security in her position and in her children's positions but that's not the same as wanting Rhaegar in her bed anymore. That means her interest may be limited to not getting divorced and nothing more.
  3. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    What does premarital sex and pregnancy have to do with concerns about infidelity?
  4. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    I speculate that they likely did marry first, and mostly this is because of Lyanna's character as she is given to us. A pregnant Lyanna would, in my estimation want a marriage for her child. It is one thing to reject all gender expectations Westerosi society put upon Lyanna herself. It is altogether different to allow your child to grow up as a "bastard" unworthy of respect if you can do anything thing about it. Is it based on the text? In the sense of what Lyanna's character tells us what she would want in such a case, I'd argue it is. Certainly we don't know for sure that she is ever pregnant. Many things point to that being likely, but, no, we don't know for certain she ever was.
  5. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    I don't make Robert's mistake and have quoted Ned's comment about the Iron underneath her beauty quite often. My original post speaks to Lyanna's wolf blood in many of the actions and words we see concerning her. I do think it is very important to start with these quotes and build theories upon them. That doesn't mean there aren't quotes that point to love from the she wolf as well. I think of her death holding onto dead roses as vitally important in understanding her character. In both of their stories I see aspects of Lyanna. We may only see the lovestruck Sansa and her love of romantic stories to begin with, but any reader who doesn't see the "iron underneath" of Sansa's use of "courtesies" to survive a cabal of villains who beset her misses the real story Martin is telling. Likewise, if one only sees Arya's "iron" and misses her desperate need for love as she lives through torture and cruelty isn't seeing all of her character. I recall it differently than you. Isn't it Joffrey who asks the High Septon to forgive him his promise to marry Sansa? But I don't disagree that such marriage pacts are sacred. I agree Rhaegar, from the North's perspective, over stepped his royal rights by his actions at Harrenhal, and by his "kidnapping" of Lyanna. This is theme that plays out over and over in the books. Robb does the same with his marriage to Jeyne, and the Frey's are livid. Prince Duncan's refusal to marry the Baratheon daughter plays on the same conflict. I agree it is important. I don't think this means Lyanna is acting out of character to refuse the marriage to Robert and ask for Rhaegar's help in doing so. Far from it. I think this is just the example of "wolf blood" Ned is talking about that brought her to an early grave. I don't recall any indication that Rhaegar was remotely involved in Rickard and Brandon's deaths. It seems that Rhaegar and Lyanna are hiding out from Aerys and much as Rickard and Robert when this happens. So, I don't see how it is at all analogous to Ned's execution ordered by Joffrey. I don't pretend to know just when, if at all, Rhaegar and Lyanna started having sex and what effect the news of torture, deaths, and rebellion would have on them doing so. When your world blows up, sometimes we cling to those closest to us to get through the terror. Does that include sex? I don't know.
  6. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    It is only a mute point if one defines a polygamous marriage, of whatever type, as by its nature a type of infidelity.
  7. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    And I'm saying you are the one making it a simple paradox, by not seeing the other possibilities. For instance, Lyanna's objections to Robert may seem simple and clear, but there may be more to them. Her objections may well include he did not tell her himself about little Mya Stone. He sends his best friend and Lyanna's brother to ask for the marriage, but starts it out with hiding his child. Lyanna then voices her concerns about his unchanging nature, which we know she is spot on in her judgement. Perhaps what you are reading is first and foremost and objection to Robert's lying ways? It's one thing to go into such a marriage with a husband who is pledged to stop his wandering ways, and hope he can do so. It is altogether another thing for him to try to hide his nature through his friendship with her brother. We have an example of another such a man being very close to Lyanna in the person of her elder brother, Brandon. Could his lying ways have an effect on Lyanna's concerns? I think they might. Now, let's take this further. Let's suppose Rhaegar and Lyanna fall in love. If her concern is about lying men, then we know he isn't lying to her about another wife. The whole of Westeros knows of Elia and Rhaegar. It isn't dishonesty that would stop them from marrying. it would be by mutual consent to enter such an second marriage. No tricks, no lies. And it could even include monogamy. Or to put it another way - no infidelities. So, what you're reducing to a simple paradox is not so simple. It imposes a cultural concept of what constitutes fidelity to marriages of two people only. The problem for the reader is that Martin introduces the concept of polygamous marriage to his world and to the Targaryens in particular. The reader is forced to then look to this as possible when dealing with Targaryen characters, and we may miss important aspects of the story if we don't. But, please, don't mistake me. I do not rule out hypocrisy as a possible part of Lyanna's personality. We all have our hypocritical sides, so why should she be immune? Things like the need for love can bring us to do things we don't normally think we would do. Funny, my friend, I think I did just that. Could you show me where I write about Rhaegar's ambitions? So far, I've put this all from Lyanna's perspective. Which is why I start with a discussion of things we know about Lyanna's character.
  8. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    Just for an example, how is it hypocritical to object to infidelity of a supposedly monogamous marriage partner, and then to be in a polygamous marriage in which it is agreed two of the partners are monogamous and the other is not sexually involved with either of them? Not that we know this is the case, but as an example. Or how is it hypocritical to have the same objections, but enter into polygamous marriage with the agreement of all parties that sex would be restricted to only those in the marriage? Aren't we missing the entire concept of consent here if we only accept fidelity as possible in only a marriage of one partner to one other partner?
  9. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    Only if we accept your definition of what Lyanna's values regarding marriage were. We know she didn't like the idea of being married to Robert at least in part because he would lie and have sex with other women (all proven true) but we don't know what she would think about a polygamous marriage - with all the many variations of what such a marriage could mean. We don't even know if she wanted any marriage of any type. The hypocrisy is in accepting the rules you imply, but doing something else. That describes Robert. It doesn't necessarily describe Lyanna and what she believed.
  10. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    Having two wives does not mean one is having sex with both of them. Fidelity isn't just a question of sex, it is also a question of agreement. Robert marrying Lyanna on the basis of being sexually monogamous and then cheating on her is just lying and betrayal. Entering into a marriage that includes more than two people does not imply lying and betrayal. If all parties agree. Not that we know this is the case between Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Elia. For one thing, we have no clue that Elia ever wanted to sleep with Rhaegar again. She could well be fine with never risking a pregnancy again, and what that could mean to her health. To many variables that are unknown here. So, unless we are talking furniture, the mathematics of EB + LB = 2B isn't the only possible outcome.
  11. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    I think the entire series is full of unreliable narrators. That is the whole point in the multi-point of views form that Martin has chosen. It is Rashomon in book form. Which tells us we have to weigh all evidence. So tell me which evidence contradicts Martin's remarks about the age difference between Dany and Jon? If you happen to be right about Rhaella not being the hooded figure that Jaime saw, what does that change about Martin's remarks? Nothing. We have abundant references to when Dany was born. Not just the question of what was behind a hood. We have nothing that calls into question that Dany was born during a great storm some nine moons after Viserys and his mother sail to Dragonstone. Weigh the evidence on everything and then decide. This one is about as clear as Martin gets. None of which tells us who are Jon's parents.
  12. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    May I suggest that your three options may not be all that we have to choose from? Let's suppose we read the Lyanna depicted in her standing up for Howland Reed against the three squire bullies correctly. Meaning she is willing to put her own body at risk for some one she doesn't know, and who she deems is being treated unfairly. Sounds like the "wolf blood" Ned talked about to me. Now, let us also suppose she is willing to stand up to her family and speak her mind about a marriage she doesn't want. Takes some courage and also speaks to that "wolf blood" I think. And it is exhibited in her conversation with Ned about Robert's nature. That is even more true if she doesn't restrict her comments to Ned, but also says the same thing to Rickard and Brandon. A distinct possibility we have to consider given her conduct in our first two examples. Now, let us also suppose that she isn't just willing to go along with what is the normal expectation of women in most of Westeros and do what her father and what looks likely to be her two elder brothers are telling her she must do in marrying Robert. She, like Prince Duncan and his brothers before her, are ready to stand up to the powerful and say no. Again, sounds like that pesky "wolf blood." Now, tell me given the above what are Lyanna's "convictions" concerning a marriage to a man she chooses, who it appears she loves, or has grown to love, who has been forced into a marriage of political convenience, just like the one she seeks to avoid, but whose wife she has no animosity for, and whose children she has no reason to want to harm. Does this sound like the woman who stands up to the bullies and the powerful and demands to be treated with respect, or one who bullies everyone herself into doing what she wants? Are her convictions so clearly a demand for the "normal" approved marriage to the man she wants, or are those convictions better understood if both Rhaegar and her get to choose, and Elia doesn't have to be harmed in the process? Which sounds like the young woman who rejects the gender roles that will not let her learn to fight, and the traditions that deny her the choice of whom to marry? Let me suggest, that rather than being a hypocrite, Lyanna is the one being consistent under these conditions, and it is the reader who isn't understanding just what her "convictions" are truly about that see hypocrisy where there is none. I would challenge you to show were we see a Lyanna who demands everything meet with society's norms. Unless you can do so, I suggest maybe you are reading her character wrong. Just another view of the problem than your three "either or" choices.
  13. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    Who determines what is credible or not? Obviously, on one level for each of us we must determine that ourselves. You and I have very, very different views of what is credible, and I don't think I can change your view. But on another level, there is a basic definition of the word "credible" and when one person decides to use it in a way that is totally out of sync with the dictionary definition and what is commonly agreed to be the meaning of the word, then people will argue and pass judgement on what is credible and what is not. These forums and the debates that are held here have something to do with developing a consensus between readers what is credible and what is not. All of that is true. I would also hope that we can agree that certain sources - the books themselves, the author himself, etc. - would have an impact on what we think is credible. So, when the author makes a statement that the age difference between two of his characters is "eight or nine months or thereabouts" I take that as a highly credible source. You obviously think you know better than the author and do not. We agree on somethings here, I should point out. I think Jon's parentage is a secret. I don't think Martin's statement on the age difference between Jon and Dany changes that fact. It does give us an important tool to help us figure out who might be Jon's parents, and other mysteries of his backstory. So for instance, we should apply this information in combination with other information in the books to determine approximate timing of Jon's conception and birth, Daenerys's conception and birth, and the relative timing of these events around the general events of the rebellion. But here I need to state my absolute belief that none of that destroys Martin's secret. We have a basic disagreement that it does so. He has not sunk his mystery with basic math. He has only made us look deeper into the possibilities he lays out. For instance, one of the possibilities for who is Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne, the Lady of Starfall. Her name is raised by Catelyn's character early in the book and it is a possibility that gets support from the author in some ways throughout the series. Does Martin's chronology destroy this possible answer? No it does not. It only makes us look deeper to see how the story of the Lady Ashara being Jon's mother would have to work to remain credible. Both Kingmonkey and I, and others in these forums like @Twinslayer have done for many years, that there are ways that this story remains credible, and in someways is strengthened, by looking at how a meeting of Ashara and Ned would look like in the timeframe Martin gives us. There is no elimination of this possibility by doing simple math, there is only a new understanding that the two characters would have to meet during this time period to conceive a child. The same is true of Ned and Wylla being Jon's parents, of Ned and the Fisherman's daughter, and, indeed, of Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's father and mother. But let's not be disingenuous here. this information does cast doubt on some possible combinations of characters to be Jon's parents. Kingmonkey and I have just had a long discussion about the whereabouts of Ned and Benjen during the timeframe and what it means for each of them as candidates to be Jon's father in a liaison with their sister. It does make some cases less credible than others. That is to the good. It means we are being attentive readers and listening to what the author is telling us. Not making up our own criteria out of thin air. The Dany being Dany part of this question I will leave to that thread.
  14. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    I just want to make sure we are still on the same page here, and, more importantly, I think, it is good for others to see how well you explain the possibilities and probabilities. No doubt we agree here. Even here, if it is for only a "day or two" one has to have someone cover for you. That can be as simple as having a squire who will turn away all others form an empty tent, Or it get's more and more complex depending on if Robert, Jon Arryn, or Hoster Tully are within the vicinity. These are men you don't just tell Ned is under the weather. My judgement is that Rhaegar's relationship with Tywin is complex. He understands this father's need to have him, and he understands there are real reasons for his father and him to distrust Lord Lannister, not just the paranoid delusions of Aerys. I highly doubt that would translate well with getting Tywin involved with anything that entails knowledge of Lyanna's whereabouts or that depends in anyway on Tywin's good will for her safety and his own. Nonetheless, you are trying to craft the most likely way in which a meeting could take place and if all things fell into place you are getting there minus Tywin's involvement. If we are talking about any time when Lyanna is located at the Tower of Joy, then we are talking about journeys of much more than a few days to see her. And unexplained absences to cover for much longer periods of time. That could change with knowledge of Ned leading his army deep into the Reach at any time during the war, but given that nothing seems to have changed the Redwyne / Tyrell siege of Storm's End, I think that unlikely. You are not alone, my friend! 1000% agreement.
  15. Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 4

    Our lack of detailed information doesn't make all things equally possible, does it my friend? I don't think so anyway. I'm going to assume the two weeks after his marriage to Catelyn are some of the most unlikely times for Ned to have gone away on a away mission to see his sister. Why? Because I know he had other responsibilities that kept him in Riverrun with Cat. The need to make Robb babies being at his top priority during this time. We can do the same for much of the rest of the war. Ned is one of the rebel commanders in charge of fighting the rebellion. That fact makes it much less likely he is going to be on an away mission behind enemy lines than when he was trying to sneak back to Winterfell, or when the fighting is done following Storm's End. So, yes, is it possible that Ned did so, but it is as unlikely as all hell he did so. Please show me an indication - a memory from a contemporary of when Ned couldn't be found during this period, for instance - and I'd be happy to readjust my estimates of what is likely and what is not. Without that we have Ned's responsibilities as a general of troops setting the frame of what is likely and what is not. Surely, you can agree that is so? Which is why it is much more likely that an Ashara, or a Wylla, or Fisherman's daughter visits Ned in his army encampment than he sneaks off and visits them. It is the same with Lyanna except with Lyanna we know she has other encumbrances that it make it unlikely she visits Ned. Ashara, Wylla, and the Fisherman's daughter are free to roam - or as Martin famously puts it they are not "nailed to the floor in Dorne." Lyanna could well have been under lock and key in Dorne, or hidden away so the effect would be the same even if she has her own key. If we are figuring out what is more likely of these possibilities then these frameworks must be taken into account. Not just that all things are possible and we don't know enough detail. The detail we know should color our estimates of what is likely.