Lady Blizzardborn

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About Lady Blizzardborn

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    the Mother of Games

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    Wisconsin, USA

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  1. I'm not up to hosting anything (I think I'm having a relapse of the latest fibro flare), but I have some theme ideas if anyone wants to bat them around.
  2. "text Royal" was the reason I voted for yours, FB. I kept picturing Dany checking her phone, swiping on Tinder, etc. It was too good not to vote for. That first leftover is quite good too. Outlandish certainly describes Daario.
  3. Congratulations, QoP!
  4. Okay, but inferiority complex was only one of my points. You've ignored the natural tendency to idolize the dear departed. Brandon supposedly always knowing what to do is no more to be regarded as actual fact than anything else the characters have told us. Again, I only said it has to be factored in. You don't see the fact that Ned is speaking from emotion and not from reason as being an important aspect in analyzing Ned's words? It speaks to his frame of mind throughout the scene, and calls into question the accuracy of his assessment of his brother's abilities. Fragmented information is all we have until the series is finished. Fragmented information and not believing what information we have is the entire basis for this thread. I've thought it over from more than one angle. Threatening the life of the prince when the king is known to be insane is stupid. There's just no way around that. I would not be remotely surprised to learn that Brandon indeed had bad info (possibly from Littlefinger) but that does not make his action any more intelligent. That wasn't me. My analysis has nothing to do with where Rhaegar was or was not, or where Brandon thought he was. That was somebody else. I'm fine with Brandon going to KL. It's what he did when he got there that was idiotic. Sending a message or not is irrelevant to my point that he had no business going there in the first place, and even less business making ridiculous threats. If he sent a message to his father, and then went ahead and committed treason instead of waiting in KL for either Rickard to join him or send instructions, that actually makes Brandon's actions in the Red Keep even worse, because then all he had to do was sit tight and wait for backup. If Brandon sent a message, then yes it's actually very likely. Rickard could have been on the move within 24 hours of hearing about it, before the word had a chance to spread. If Brandon sent no message then we're right back to him being an idiot. Apples and oranges. Varys has a spy network, and Cat was traveling near seaports. Lyanna was taken somewhere on the road between Winterfell and Riverrun, no seaports so no gossiping sea captains, and Varys would have gained nothing by spreading that news to various northerners. Gossip can only go as fast as the people who carry it so unless you're counting on witnesses who have not been identified, or Rhaegar's taking Lyanna rather publicly by sea to Dorne, there is no particular reason to suspect the entire north knew about the abduction prior to a potential departure by Lord Rickard for King's Landing. Rumors can always be denied. It's a lot harder to deny a bunch of noblemen's sons being held prisoner in the capital, and a summons from the king to account for their actions. Which would make it no different than any other time in history in the north. House Stark managed to keep the Boltons in line pretty well up until Robb. Yes, Aerys' paranoia is taken as fact, because it is presented as fact throughout the series. He started coming unhinged long enough before any of this occurred that it is likely to be common knowledge among the highest nobility at least. The Wardens in particular have to know what they are dealing with the king. Even if there were efforts to keep the extent of his madness from being generally known, his appearance at Harrenhal with hair and fingernails that hadn't been cut for who knows how long, and erratic behavior and mood changes during the event would have been the death knell for secrecy regarding his condition. Everyone present at Harrenhal knew without doubt that their king was mad. Blaming the victim is an interesting term. It implies that a victim cannot be anything but entirely innocent. Brandon was not innocent. According to the information we have, he and his buddies went to the Red Keep and he yelled/screamed/loudly intoned for Rhaegar to "come out and die." That is treason. As to exonerating Aerys, no, but there is some doubt as to whether someone who is insane is truly accountable for their actions. Let me be clear: I don't think anyone who was with Brandon should have been killed, but Brandon himself is a "victim" who is entirely worthy of blame. By your own estimation the challenge is generally a slap to the face. That's historical precedent and thank you for adding it in to save me the trouble. Also acceptable would be sending a letter issuing the challenge, demanding satisfaction, saying the challenged should name seconds, etc. Duels have rules, and how to challenge is part of that. Traditionally the challenger issues the challenge and then the challenged has a chance to either offer public apology, make restitution, or choose weapons. Nothing in Brandon's words gives Rhagear any such choice. Screaming "come out and die" is not a challenge to a duel. It could certainly be considered an invitation to a beatdown, or a statement of intent to murder, but it is not a challenge. Had he yelled "Rhaegar, defend yourself" there would be a lot more room for discussion. That at least implies giving the other guy a fair chance to defend himself. Interestingly, the period of English history that most closely resembles Westerosi culture (14th century, per GRRM) is a century in which duels were no longer legal. But lets say the rules haven't evolved into the gentlemanly and chivalric way of trying to kill each other that would mark later period duels. Let's say we go just with historic fact that is known, since The George hasn't given us much to go on in-universe except for one particular case of single combat to end a rebellion, and in which the offending party didn't even fight. In the Middle Ages, duels were used as a method of trial by combat, obviously, and they were also used for conflict resolution, but only when the courts could not solve the problem. Did Brandon go to any kind of judicial body and ask for them to deal with Rhaegar appropriately? No. And that's understandable given that the only person higher than Rhaegar is his father, who is crazy. Crazy King is not likely to administer justice, is he? Sure he might decide it's a good idea to irk the son he thinks is plotting against him by demanding he return the girl, but he's just as likely to tell the little lordling to run home and cry about it. But in what universe is the next logical step to call for the prince's death? You already know the king is crazy, and you're in his yard if not his house. And yes, Brandon knew Aerys was nutso. He was at Harrenhal. He saw the matted, uncleaned hair and beard, and the inches-long fingernails. Seconds are chosen after the challenged has opted to fight. And the seconds usually are the witnesses, as long as they aren't fighting. You also bring a doctor, but I don't recall any mention of Brandon's taking a maester along to KL. Maybe he figured Pycelle would do the honors? If George applies the closest historical precedent within Westerosi history, Rhaegar would not be fighting Brandon, just like Duncan didn't fight Lyonel Baratheon. If Brandon knows his history, he should know he'd be fighting a KG, not the crown prince. In which case it makes even less sense for him to call for Rhaegar to "come out and die" when he knows he's going to "duel" a stand-in. Given that he'd stopped using hangings and beheadings in favor of death by wildfire years before this event takes place, that knowledge was probably pretty common. Look I don't have a problem with the idea that Brandon went to KL intending to challenge Rhaegar to a nice, civil duel. But if that's what his plan was then he messed it up with his choice of words. For a guy who supposedly always knew what to do, he really choked when it counted.
  5. You've got some good ones there, rock. Daario: Very innocent, hardly arrogant rake. Marriage absolutely definite (almost). Romance! Versatile indeed! Handsome, amorous, roguish man. Apply, damsels awesome-ing royally. Dany: Can ignition turn romantic or mate for always? (this is too philosophical for a dating site really) Curious introvert trends romantic. Offers many fabulous adventures. Can I Tormund? Real. Original. Member forever. Aces!
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  8. I'm not dismissing anything. Ned has a definite sore spot when it comes to his big brother the almighty Brandon. It's not remotely a rare thing in human nature for one sibling to outshine another and there to be some issues from it. I'm saying that must be factored into the equation. And if you go back and check that post, you'll see that's what I said--that it should be factored in. Ned's talking as much about feeling inadequate as he is about Brandon supposedly being able to handle things. Would Brandon have made a better Hand? Possibly, but Robert would never have asked Brandon to be Hand in the first place, which Ned would realize if he would stop and think for a minute. I didn't call him not Northern. I pointed out text that indicates that other characters tend to think of Stark-ness or northern-ness as going along with the wolf blood. If you don't think Ned thought of that in comparing himself to Brandon...well you must not be a younger sibling of a star. Yes, that's possible, but it would make Rickard as stupid as Brandon. For Rickard to be okay with Brandon handling that situation requires either that 1) Rickard is just as bad as Brandon, and there's zero evidence for that, 2) Rickard is a weak man to the point of comparisons with Tytos Lannister, or 3) Rickard has no clue what his eldest son is like. They wouldn't be butting in, because Rickard would have left for King's Landing before they knew about it. Taking a token guard for the trip, no more than he would usually take with him, would keep Aerys from getting worried about him trying to make a show of force or pick a fight. Rickard had been Lord of Winterfell presumably for decades at that point, and we can at least assume from what Barbrey Dustin says that he had no problem taking counsel. He'd have a much better understanding of the impact of his actions on all of his vassals AND how to handle the crazy king than Brandon would have. Rickard also might well have sounded out others at court to find out his best approach in addressing the king about the issue. I don't mean to hold him up as a standard of wisdom and virtue, but Rickard was doing pretty well in life up until his eldest committed treason, and he had a couple decades on his kids in the world experience department. He had managed to not get killed up to whatever age he was. He had two of his kids lined up for power marriages. He had kept the peace in his region for the most part, hadn't been stripped of any titles or responsibilities. He was powerful enough that pretty much no one would mess with him, but not so powerful that he was feared like Tywin was. Apparently not. Brandon had sons of bannermen with him when he rode into KL. He got all of them and their fathers killed, the exception being little Ethan Glover. And then Aerys' over-reaction and fear that Ned and Robert would get in on it led to his calling for their heads, and Jon Arryn's refusal and calling his banners. Thus...war. Call me crazy but I think a guy with decades of ruling experience, and most likely a cooler head, could have managed a better outcome, if only that the war was delayed by a few months and fewer northerners were killed in the Red Keep. Agreed, but there's a proper way to challenge someone to a duel, and the etiquette is even more strict when royalty is involved and more important when the king is insane. Brandon did not follow the customary steps, and apparently forget to take into account that the king was insane. You do not challenge someone to a duel by screaming "come out and die." You also don't take a posse with you for a duel. And that's regular duels, not even taking into account challenging the crown prince...whose father burns people for fun. All that riding, for all those miles, and he never came up with a better plan. It's a nice idea that it could have been handled quietly and privately as a family matter, but that's not possible under the circumstances. Duels to the death are neither private nor quiet. And arguably the crown prince abducting a Lord Paramount's daughter is a public matter. The best hope for keeping things under wraps would have been the two patriarchs (Westeros is heavily patriarchal after all) sitting down together and trying to work out a solution that was acceptable to both of them. Not saying it would have worked, but it would have been better than Brandon's method of conflict-resolution.
  9. Brandon, divided by Ned, plus Margaery Tyrell, equals Jeyne Westerling. Got it.
  10. Actually the idiot should have sent a message to his father, or gone straight to his father, and let Rickard handle it. As Lyanna was not yet married, her father was the person in the best position to demand her return. Robert would be the only other person with a particular right to protest, but since they weren't married yet his was not as strong a position as Rickard had. Brandon jumped the chain of command, which was stupid. Rickard would have stood a better chance of knowing how to handle the situation, and possibly getting Lyanna back unharmed. Brandon also could have appealed to his betrothed's father for assistance and counsel. Between Rickard and Hoster they might have gotten Tywin to come in and tell Aerys to ignore both families, and Aerys being Aerys he would likely do the opposite of what Tywin suggested and send the girl back north. @sweetsunray you make good points, but you also need to factor in Ned's inferiority complex when it came to Brandon the Great, and the tendency people have to turn their dead loved ones into better/abler people than they were. Sure when Ned's doubting himself he's going to say Brandon should be Hand, Brandon should be Lord, Brandon should have Cat. He's having a Jan Brady moment there (just replace Marcia with Brandon). In his mind he never measured up to his big brother, who was made in the mold of the old Kings in the North. And he's not the only one who thinks along those lines; Tyrion says that Jon has more of the north in him than his siblings do (wolf blood). Ned is a great guy, but he's not the prototypical Stark of old, which oddly might end up being the whole reason the world has a chance. We'd have a very different story if Brandon had lived. Now I feel like giving Ned a pep talk (you're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone-it, people like you!).
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  12. I missed this before. Not sure how. Must be fibro brain. I'll PM you tomorrow. Also...bump.
  13. There is no reason, given the information we have, to doubt this. Even Aerys, crazy as he was, would not have ordered the arrest of Brandon and all of his companions for just riding into the city/courtyard and making noise. The account given is entirely consistent with Brandon's character as given by three other sources: Catelyn (who felt it necessary to beg him not to kill stupid little Petyr), Barbrey Dustin, and his own brother. Ned says Brandon's nature is what brought him to an early death--note there is no recrimination against the crazy king, or even the girl-stealing prince, just the wolf blood being what led to both Brandon and Lyanna's deaths while young. Ned was not drunk, or trying to upset anyone when he said this. If you can't take Jaime's word, at least take Ned's. Does Jaime get it word for word? Hard to say, but he's probably got it close enough that it makes no major difference. As to his state of inebriation...some people are more truthful when drinking than when sober.
  14. Maester Pylos Alessandro Nivola
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