Makk

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  1. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    They are speaking with the current situation in mind. I'm unclear about a lot of things that happened and the timing, particularly around when Hightower joined them and when Rahegar left (presumably to go to the trident). But just because I am unclear about some of those things, I am not going to ignore all the hints we actually have text about. My post will be entirely speculative as there is virtually no information about this at all, or if there is I have missed or forgotten about it. Rhaegar had not been in Kingslanding for some time, living in Dragonstone and then in Dorne, it would not be unexpected that two Kingsguard were with him, fully in accordance with their vows. When did Gerold Hightower arrive? Was it his arrival that made Rhaegar depart or did he depart earlier. Did he stay at the Tower of Joy for that period of time or return after he saw kings landing sacked? There are all sorts of possibilities. They all realised that Aerys was crazy. They knew he tortured his wife. As Jaime says there are many vows they need to break to actually guard Aerys. It is just so much easier for them to follow the vows that they deem morally right. The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. "Your Grace," Jaime had pleaded, "let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine." Prince Rhaegar shook his head. "My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour." Jaime's anger had risen up in his throat. "I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard." "Then guard the king," Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey." Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return." Those were the last words Rhaegar Targaryen ever spoke to him. Outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the Trident. So the Prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom. One of the few bits of text we have shows Rhaegar freely speaking about making changes in front of most of the Kingsguard, almost certainly referring to his insane father (note Rhaegar doesn't refer to him as king). The kingsguard still support him. We know how much Sir Barristan thought of Rhaegar and wanted him to be king. No one actually wanted to stay and guard Aerys. In conclusion it is most likely that as far as the Kingsguard are concerned, their vow was to the lineage itself and Aerys was quite clearly not fit for duty.
  2. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    I find this, your only other suggestion to what they were doing when they wanted to fight, extremely uncompelling. The safest place for the baby was with Ned anyway. And the manner of their speech in the dream... Our knees do not bend easily The Kingsguard does not flee. Then or now We swore a vow And now it begins ...belies that as well. Yes I know you said it was a fever dream, and anything can be disregarded, but to me that changes the meaning of the scene altogether. With a complete lack of any information regarding what happened there in all of his writing I can't accept that. Added to the fact that there were various other clues scattered through the books hinting that he is infact a king (talking to Arya about Joffery, mormonts raven) makes a compelling argument that he is probably a king. Nothing said to the contrary has had any grounding in the actual text, its all speculation on kingdom rules, motivations of characters we don't know etc. There hasn't been anything compelling in it at all.
  3. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    For your first point, Rhaeger and Connington were good friends, but Connington became hand of the King and was away fighting battles. He was not around Rhaeger during that period of time and would have been completely unaware of it if it did happen. For your second point, there is a significant difference in power. It's all well and good for Rhaeger to marry again for what likely seems to be someone who loves him, but Daenerys is the F**king dragon riding dragon queen. She needs to be inclined and enticed to marry Aegon and if Aegon is already married, and possibly has a child on the way, I would suggest that is much, much less likely. Also Connington isn't a Targaryen so he is less likely to think that way.
  4. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    Would you accept that they most likely intended to crown Jon? To argue this they know Ned and they know he wouldn't kill the child. There would be no need to fight a battle they knew they probably wouldn't win, and they wouldn't want to kill men who were no threat. They probably also had a fair idea Lyana was dying. In my mind there was clearly something else. However even though Ned would never harm his nephew, there was also no way he would agree to crown the child. Now, if you accept that they were going to crown Jon, and assuming Rhaeger would have wanted that, why wouldn't he have wed Lyana? He had plenty of time to do so as a contingency and it would have given legitimacy both to Jon and also to Lyana.
  5. Bran vs. Jaime

    Well Catelyn knew Jaime chucked Bran out the window and he is unknowingly on his way to see her right now. So we will get to see that one pretty quickly, it should have actually happened well before the last chapter in Dance of Dragons according to the timelines.
  6. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    I would also go back to the irony foreshadowed right at the start in A Game of Thrones when Arya talks to Jon about why he isn't kicking Joffery's arse. "Why aren't you down in the yard?" Arya asked him. He gave her a half smile. "Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes," he said. "Any bruises they take in the practice yard must come from trueborn swords." "Oh." Arya felt abashed. Is it conclusive proof? No, but at the same time I think GRRM has made it pretty obvious. I think there are much, much stronger arguments that Rhaeger and Lyana married than not.
  7. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    So why are the 3 kingsguard there? That is the whole point.
  8. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    I don't agree with you. We have virtually no information about what really happened there. For GRRM to provide an extremely interesting hint once you understand it, and then have it all be false because the POV was delusional would simply be bad writing.
  9. Remark by Jaime's aunt Genna about Tyrion

    Not really if you consider he is suspicious of Jaime and Cercei's birth but doesn't know for sure and then at the same time being terribly embarrassed about Tyrion.
  10. Jon was born a bastard and remains a bastard.

    I think this pretty much covers it. We don't have much information about what happened during that period but Ned's memory of the tower of joy scene strongly implies that the Kingsguard considered Jon the rightful king of the seven kingdoms. No other argument to the contrary really makes much sense unless they can explain this.
  11. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    Having Arya ride past a body of water isn't a particularly interesting thing to foreshadow. Yes we lack context but compared to other events that have received foreshadowing this lacks significant importance. I do get your point, the original point Mo'Parties was making. I think it's interesting but I'm not really convinced by any of the theories. Will Arya leave the faceless men? Yeah she probably will, but I don't see that as a twist and I certainly wouldn't consider this foreshadowing for that event. Perhaps something will come of this, I certainly won't rule it out, just saying I'm not convinced.
  12. It's not Alys Karstark, either

    I think it's interesting. GRRM certainly went into a significant amount of detail in that scene. But at the moment I can't really see the point of it if it is for something in the future. To put this sort of stuff in it has to mean something. At the moment if it was Alys, it shows us that Mel can see things right and still get it wrong. What does it mean if it just shows the same thing again? If the real Arya rides past a body of water on a dying horse, so what? It's possible we are missing something but at the moment I can't see it.
  13. Just how important is Mance?

    I think it is entirely possible that his role in the story is over.
  14. While I hesitate using the word "badass" in a serious discussion, I think the way he convinced and led the golden company to attack Westeros is a suitable demonstration of it. Also not telling anyone about the greyscale, refusing to cut of his hand despite knowing he will die in excruciating pain, just so he can put Aegon on the throne is pretty staunch as well. I like Connington as a character. There is a lot of depth to him and he really feels alive as a character. Fishing Tyrion out of the river was also astonishingly brave, although personally I found that a bit too stupid and out of character.