IceFire125

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  1. Wrong question. OP should ask these questions: Why are majority members and admins/owners of westeros.org board have declared that R+L=J theory is more likely true and fit to explain Jon's true parentage in the overall story of ASOIAF? Why can't alternative theories posted on youtube and other forums be of equal authority than westeros.org? Why is westeros.org the forum people look to for where theories are to be tested, picked apart and to see how they make narrative and thematic sense?
  2. You can also add the symbolism and attribute to Targaryenism with Ash and Cinders... She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder. Only death can pay for life. And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children. The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world. When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away … yet she was unhurt. The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals. - Dany AGOT (hatching of dragons) Ash and Cinders... “Down,” the prince commanded. You must not let him smell your fear. “Down, down, down.” He brought the whip around and laid a lash across the dragon’s face. Viserion hissed. And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!” Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal. When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream. - Dragontamer ADWD (Quentyn facing Viserion and Rhaegal) Ash and Cinders laying under the snow... It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice, and hoarfrost sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders... - The Prince of Winterfell ADWD (Theon at Winterfell) “I trust you enjoyed the journey, Your Grace?” Robert snorted. “Bogs and forests and fields, and scarcely a decent inn north of the Neck. I’ve never seen such a vast emptiness. Where are all your people?” “Likely they were too shy to come out,” Ned jested. He ould feel the chill coming up the stairs, a cold breath from deep within the earth. “Kings are a rare sight in the north.” Robert snorted. “More likely they were hiding under the snow. Snow, Ned!” The king put one hand on the wall to steady himself as they descended. - Eddard AGOT (King Robert visits Winterfell) Ash and Cinders, Kings and Dragons... “His milk name. I had to call him something. See that he stays safe and warm. For his mother’s sake, and mine. And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires.” Arya, he thought, hoping it was so. “Ashes and cinders.” “Kings and dragons.” Dragons again. For a moment Jon could almost see them too, coiling in the night, their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame. - Jon ADWD
  3. I posted this at another thread a while back, but since it's relevant to the discussion, I wanna share it here as well. I've long believed, Jon is GRRM's answer to JRRT's Aragorn. If we are to believe the theory that Jon will be King Aegon VII... Then I like how this is truly GRRM's answer to JRRT's Aragorn... Make sure that it is the real Strider. There are many strange men on the roads. His true name is Aragorn. All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. -[The Song of Aragorn in Gandalf's letter to Frodo.]- There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. ‘I believed that you were a friend before the letter came,’ he said, ‘or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would – well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.’ ‘I see,’ laughed Strider. ‘I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.’ ‘Did the verses apply to you then?’ asked Frodo. ‘I could not make out what they were about. But how did you know that they were in Gandalf ’s letter, if you have never seen it?’ ‘I did not know,’ he answered. ‘But I am Aragorn, and those verses go with that name.’ - The Fellowship of The Ring. ---- “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.” ... Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob. “Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”
  4. This is related to the discussion. It's this quote that is making me still wanting Jon's Targaryen name to be 'Aemon' and not Aegon. However, I'm at about 50/50 on both. Regardless, it relates to Jon's royal connection with House Targaryen... a royal blood connection. Maester Aemon sighed. “Have you heard nothing I’ve told you, Jon? Do you think you are the first?” He shook his ancient head, a gesture weary beyond words. “Three times the gods saw fit to test my vows. Once when I was a boy, once in the fullness of my manhood, and once when I had grown old. By then my strength was fled, my eyes grown dim, yet that last choice was as cruel as the first. My ravens would bring the news from the south, words darker than their wings, the ruin of my House, the death of my kin, disgrace and desolation. What could I have done, old, blind, frail? I was helpless as a suckling babe, yet still it grieved me to sit forgotten as they cut down my brother’s poor grandson, and his son, and even the little children …” **Like Aemon, figuratively... Jon was literally helpless as a suckling babe.
  5. The passage above, Jon was not in low-esteem, in fact, he made sure that he's surrounded by his own retinue (since he's a Lord Commander) so that Queen Selyse wouldn't mistake him for a stableboy. This shows that he has pride, at least in front of the queen. Because from what he's heard, she's the type to generalize and look down on others before her. Jon wanna make sure that he stands out and not just a regular brother of the NW. The point was that his thoughts give away that subtlety, the "call back" to a remembrance of another individual that was mistaken for a stableboy. This is classic GRRM's three-level-type of revelation. That individual was a hidden Targaryen prince and Jon is very much a hidden Targaryen prince as well. That is the core point that GRRM hearkened and called us, the readers, to remember, the certain stableboy individual in that very thought by Jon.
  6. Egg, a royal prince who later become King Aegon V, was mistaken as a stableboy. And Jon? It was his thought that gives away the parallel... Queen Selyse descended upon Castle Black... He met the queen’s party by the stables, accompanied by Satin, Bowen Marsh, and half a dozen guards in long black cloaks. It would never do to come before this queen without a retinue of his own, if half of what they said of her was true. She might mistake him for a stableboy and hand him the reins of her horse.
  7. It doesn't. However, it gives the room for us, the readers (whom GRRM wants to give the hints to) to think further on, that the elder brother heard singers from both sides. He acknowledges both Robert and Rhaegar's claim that they are both fighting for the woman they loved. Up until that chapter of Brienne, we know that Ned does not harbor hatred and anger towards Rhaegar. We know of Robert's thoughts on Rhaegar and the Targaryens, contrast that of Ned... “And Rhaegar … how many times do you think he raped your sister? How many hundreds of times?” His voice had grown so loud that his horse whinnied nervously beneath him. The king jerked the reins hard, quieting the animal, and pointed an angry finger at Ned. “I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves.” Ned knew better than to defy him when the wrath was on him. If the years had not quenched Robert’s thirst for revenge, no words of his would help. In Ned's first chapter, the severity of the promise was amplified to where it's undeniable to the careful reader... He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes. Why such severity? “Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me,” Varys said with a sly smile. “Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child.” “So you say. If you are wrong, we need not fear. If the girl miscarries, we need not fear. If she births a daughter in place of a son, we need not fear. If the babe dies in infancy, we need not fear.” “But if it is a boy?” Robert insisted. “If he lives?” I'm of the opinion, Ned was protecting a royal Targaryen by blood, born from the union of Rhaegar and Lyanna. He was protecting the true heir to the throne.
  8. That's right! The elder brother. He fought for the Targaryens during the war of the usurper. Of course, he admittedly took the singers' version, the bias of Rhaegar and that of Robert. Both claimed to loved Lyanna. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river. The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one. Now which singers sang what part of Rhaegar's or Robert's version? or which singers in general that took both versions of claimed love as truth? One thing is certain, by having a version that rebukes Robert's proclaimed image of Rhaegar is already enough, enough to investigate further that Lyanna may indeed have gone willingly.
  9. I'm of the opinion GRRM already revealed it to us... And where do I stand? Jon did not know. To stay with Ygritte, he would need to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, the Magnar might cut her heart out. And if he took her with him … assuming she would go, which was far from certain … well, he could scarcely bring her back to Castle Black to live among the brothers. A deserter and a wildling could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. And where do I stand? Rhaegar did not know. To stay with Lyanna he had to become a wildling heart and soul. If he abandoned her to return to his duty, his Father, the king, would cut her heart out. And if he took her with him ... assuming she would go, which was far from certain ... well, he could take her back to Winterfell to be with her family and brother. Deserters of duties... from a wife (Elia) and from a betroth (Robert) could expect no welcome anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms. ----- We know Jon finally returned to his duty... again, I'm of the opinion that GRRM already revealed it to us... Ygritte was much in his thoughts as well. He remembered the smell of her hair, the warmth of her body … and the look on her face as she slit the old man’s throat. You were wrong to love her, a voice whispered. You were wrong to leave her, a different voice insisted. He wondered if his father had been torn the same way, when he’d left Jon’s mother to return to Lady Catelyn. He was pledged to Lady Stark, and I am pledged to the Night’s Watch. Jon pledged his vows to the Night's Watch in front of the heart tree... just as his Father, Rhaegar, pledged his vows to Lady Lyanna Stark, his Mother.
  10. Little birds, little birds, little birds everywhere... and not all are loyal to Varys. “I am pleased to hear it, my lord. Some of your sister’s hirelings are mine as well, unbeknownst to her. I should hate to think they had grown so sloppy as to be seen.” ... ...but I find it best to err on the side of caution.” “How is it a brothel happens to have a secret entrance?” “The tunnel was dug for another King’s Hand, whose honor would not allow him to enter such a house openly. Chataya has closely guarded the knowledge of its existence.” “And yet you knew of it.” “Little birds fly through many a dark tunnel. Careful, the steps are steep.” ... Tyrion adjusted the heavy cloak and paced restlessly. “You missed a lively council. Stannis has crowned himself, it seems.” “I know.” “He accuses my brother and sister of incest. I wonder how he came by that suspicion.” “Perhaps he read a book and looked at the color of a bastard’s hair, as Ned Stark did, and Jon Arryn before him. Or perhaps someone whispered it in his ear.” The eunuch’s laugh was not his usual giggle, but deeper and more throaty. “Someone like you, perchance?” “Am I suspected? It was not me.” “If it had been, would you admit it?” “No. But why should I betray a secret I have kept so long? It is one thing to deceive a king, and quite another to hide from the cricket in the rushes and the little bird in the chimney. Besides, the bastards were there for all to see.” “Robert’s bastards? What of them?” “He fathered eight, to the best of my knowing,” Varys said as he wrestled with the saddle. “Their mothers were copper and honey, chestnut and butter, yet the babes were all black as ravens … and as ill-omened, it would seem. So when Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen slid out between your sister’s thighs, each as golden as the sun, the truth was not hard to glimpse.” Tyrion shook his head. If she had borne only one child for her husband, it would have been enough to disarm suspicion … but then she would not have been Cersei. “If you were not this whisperer, who was?” “Some traitor, doubtless.” Varys tightened the cinch. “Littlefinger?” “I named no name.”
  11. A poster who's 5 post in (or maybe with a new name) spouting "evidence" and whom I haven't seen once in the many version of RLJ threads.
  12. N+A=J is soooo..... pre-2011.
  13. In regards to rulership of what Jon and Dany's will be like... I've always placed the guideline around what GRRM said. "Sometimes, bad men make good kings (rulers) and good men, bad kings." Taking away the possible extremes of the spectrum: Maegor and Jaehaerys I. GRRM have a lot of options to make Jon his answer to JRRT's Aragorn, but in a not-so-plesant way once he is king. In the eyes of the reader, he will be good, consistent with his character, but other people/characters in universe might not see him as one. I'm one of those that believe that Jon will be king in the end. However, it would not be a trouble-free rule, and not all will be happy with him eventually. Religion: Jon will continue to be a staunch supporter of the old gods. Once he is king he will pull a Baelor The Blessed towards the favor of the old gods, marking the religion as the official faith of his monarchy. He will decree that every high born castle owned by noble lords, must allow at least a weirwood to be planted/grown (w/the aid of the CoTF's or Order of the Green Men's magic) for men to worship and pray to. However, consistent with his character, brought forth in ADWD, he will not force a person to worship the old gods, just like how he allowed brothers of the NW to take their vows in the Sept or in front of a weirwood and just like he would not allow people to make fun of the Red God, R'hllor. Inheritance/Castles/lands: Passing them down to people and families who are seen as enemies for a long time. I'm of the opinion, for the conflict/resolution to come full circle, Jon will allow some families who supported the Blackfyres in the rebellions, to come back home, back to their homes. This will be seen as nonsense and a cause of revolt to the families that have supported the Targaryen dynasty ever since the first Blackfyre rebellion. Marriages: He will marry Dany out of duty and Arya out of desire... to the protest of his own family in the North and of the Seven.
  14. I wish he would've covered more about Aegon's progresses with Aenys tagging along. In TWOIAF, it briefly mentioned that Aegon's last progress in 33AC was in Winterfell. I kinda hoped that GRRM would've covered it further, especially how Aenys interacted with or thoughts regarding the Starks and the North in general.
  15. If we are to believe the theory that Jon will be King Aegon VII... Then I like how this is truly GRRM's answer to JRRT's Aragorn... Make sure that it is the real Strider. There are many strange men on the roads. His true name is Aragorn. All that is gold does not glitter, Not all those who wander are lost; The old that is strong does not wither, Deep roots are not reached by the frost. From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king. -[The Song of Aragorn in Gandalf's letter to Frodo.]- There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. ‘I believed that you were a friend before the letter came,’ he said, ‘or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would – well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.’ ‘I see,’ laughed Strider. ‘I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.’ ‘Did the verses apply to you then?’ asked Frodo. ‘I could not make out what they were about. But how did you know that they were in Gandalf ’s letter, if you have never seen it?’ ‘I did not know,’ he answered. ‘But I am Aragorn, and those verses go with that name.’ - The Fellowship of The Ring. ---- “Aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “What better name for a king?” “Will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “He has a song,” the man replied. “He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.” ... Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame icked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob. “Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”