Archmaester_Aemma

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  1. The Duality of Fire in Mythology

    Sorry, I didn't mean to... steal your thunder *pun intended, cue laugh track* (Hopefully this was aimed at me, because otherwise that doesn't work and I look very, very egotistical) I got pretty excited by the ice-lightning thing too. I'm less good with interpreting what it actually means for the main series, but I think it adds a nice twist to the Grey King vs the Storm God's thunderbolt story and thus the burning tree (i.e. weirwood?) motif. I'd be interested to hear what you make of the implications.
  2. The Duality of Fire in Mythology

    If you have a look at the colour symbolism of ice, and colours that are frequently paired together, I do think there is something to be said for Dany having icy colouring. This is a very long and convoluted web and I can't provide quotes for those because I'm out at the moment and all my notes are at home, but here goes: Ice and ice crystals are most frequently associated with blue and white. You have the blue-white death needles under Bran in his coma dream, the Wall is described at blue and white on a number of occasions (linked to this, the glacier that is the source of the Milkwater is described as a blue-white wall of ice that reminds Jon of the Wall) and the Eyrie is the blue-and-white marble ice-castle that sits atop the Giant's Lance in the Mountains of the Moon. Speaking of the Eyrie, Lysa Arryn wears a cream velvet dress and a rope of sapphires and moonstones about her milk white neck during Tyrion's first trial-by-combat and when she herself is pushed out of the Moon Door by Littlefinger, both of which appear to be extended LB-forging metaphors if I'm not mistaken. And obviously, there are the wights, with their milk-pale skin and their blue star eyes, and the Others themselves: skin as pale as milk, milkglass bones, blue blood, burning blue eyes, glowing blue ice crystal swords that leave Royce's blade "splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning". Lightning is the only other thing I can find that appears as blue-white. At Queenscrown, "Lightning crashed down from the sky, a searing blue-white bolt that touched the top of the tower in the lake". During Brienne's fight with Rorge and Biter etc, the lightning makes "an axe gleam silvery blue". And as Davos is marched before Lord Borrell, "Lightning split the northern sky, etching the black tower of the Night Lamp against the blue-white sky" and "Lightning flashed outside, making the arrow loops blaze blue and white for half a heartbeat". There are also occurrence of blue-white lightning in The Mystery Knight and The Princess and the Queen. The only other color of lightning is purple. "The cog was drifting on a sea of dragonglass beneath a bowl of stars, but all around the storm raged on. East, west, north, south, everywhere he looked, the clouds rose up like black mountains, their tumbled slopes and collossal cliffs alive with blue and purple lightning." And House Dondarrion takes the purple lightning bolt as its sigil because of its origin story: A broken sword you say? And the lightning came to save you when all was doomed? And the only known member in ASOIAF is the resurrected, kissed-by-fire, Beric Dondarrion who goes around lighting his sword on fire? Huh... That's a coincidence. So, blue-white is the colour of ice, but it is also the colour of lightning, bringing lightning in to the realm of ice symbolism, especially considering that the Others move "fast as lightning" and leave Waymar Royce's sword splitered like a tree struck by lightning. Given that the lightning makes blades look silvery-blue as well as white-blue, and the only other colour of lightning is purple, we can extend this to see a purple-and-silver motif within lightning as well (and, golly gosh, so many moon maiden clothes and accessories are silver paired with purple). And the Valyrian look - well its silvery hair and purple eyes. There are even lemurs in Essos with this colouring called "Little Valyrians". Notably, we only find purple lightning around House Dondarrion (a massive LB/AA metaphor), R'hllorist magicians (Moqorro) and Valyrian looks (so dragonlords). I would suggest that this purple-and-silver colour pairing is therefore something to do with fire-transformed iciness.
  3. The Duality of Fire in Mythology

    It's not just grey-green: we also have the (scarlet) red and black of the waves of night and moon blood, and the frequent pairings of white and blue (or occasionally silver and/or purple respectively). I think these correspond roughly to "types" of magic (for want of a better word): earth, fire and ice respectively. The duality in each of them reflects the same duality you've outlined in your OP: benevolence and treachery, creation and destruction, life and death. So if grey is associated with the latter aspect of this duality... welp, you've got yourself some evil Ironborns. As a slight aside, I think this may explain why green fire is so treacherous in book: it's an unatural perversion of the natural order, the green of earth associating itself with fire and flame.
  4. The Duality of Fire in Mythology

    Great work I've been analysing the symbolism from a literary imagery perspective, rather than a mythological astronomy one (because I don't know world myth), and have come across the exact same phenomenon. Briefly, Martin's use of the word "fire" roughly corresponds to the benevolent sun/fire god, and "flame" roughly corresponds to the treacherous/destructive one. Look forward to reading more
  5. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Hi, thanks for reading and commenting. Whilst I am aware that sunsets have all of these colours, Martin does not choose to associate them all in the same way. Searching for the 3 colours quickly: Red sunset = 6 occurrences, with another "setting sun turning Dany's face red" to total 7 Orange sunset/Orange dusk = 2 occurrences Yellow sunset/yellow dusk does not appear in the series at all. Whilst this is hardly a comprehensive search, I believe these results demonstrate that, whilst red yellows and oranges are present in sunsets, George is not choosing to associate all of the colours with sunset. I believe this association (or lack thereof) shouldn't be ignored; it seems very clear that GRRM has chosen the associations of each word and colour very carefully (think of how the word "rustling" is used almost exclusively with respect to the weirwood trees and the old gods), so the association (or lack thereof) between certain colours and sunset ought to be telling. Then again, I could be reading too much in to it.
  6. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    To my mind, those would be the same thing. I.e. Azor Ahai wakes dragons from stone so if Dany was to slay the lie that Stannis is Azor Ahai she would simultaneously be slaying the lie about this hypothetical stone beast. That's what I'm thinking atm, which then leads back to this redundancy argument i.e. that Stannis/Mel would be mentioned twice.
  7. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    I realise that I didn't word that very well at all... It is not unimportant to the story as a whole, more that the visions I believe the Undying Ones would impart would have more to do with the final act than with the Game of Thrones itself. I guess I thought this because the daughter of death visions are about bringing the dragons into the world i.e. they are symbols of forging Lightbringer, if not Lightbringer itself - so end of the world stuff. The bride of fire visions are again related to the dragons, or more specifically, the birth and use of them - Drogo brought them in to the world, Euron is being set up to be a massive and terrifying third act villain (aiming to be a god-king installed on the Iron Throne) and Jon being a major protagonist in the War for the Dawn. - Again this is all about the use and potentially abuse of the dragons, which are LB symbols - so end of the world stuff. In this pattern, I can't see the game of thrones fitting in the slayer of lies slot here. Especially considering what the Undying Ones would believe it is important to show Dany. Is the game of thrones really it? I'm not so sure...
  8. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Hey Masha - thanks for reading and commenting Re your Shireen theory, she has the greyscale for the stone-ness, but I'm not sure where the lie Dany could slay would be? Unless it would be Stannis, but then there's the problem of redundancy again, as Stannis is covered by the blue-eyed king...
  9. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Given that this section is titled Bride of fire, I believe this means we can rule out people she isn't married to, hence why I discounted Daario. Moreover, I don't believe it can be Hizdahr either, as he married her in order to get rid of her dragons, not to embrace them: so, she is a bride, but not a bride of fire. The Meereenese Blot does a fantastic job of examining Dany's inner struggle here, and why Daario and Hizdahr are juxtaposed, which has no doubt in part influenced my take on these two characters, their purpose in the novels and their future within the story. So, if Daario and Hizdahr are off the cards, then we have to go hunting through the symbolism. Hopefully I outlined everything relatively clearly in my initial posting of it, but here's a recap: - On a ship: links to sailing - Grey smile: House Greyjoy (so Victarion, Euron or Aeron) - Bright eyes: these are usually blue or black or mocking (sounds a lot more like Euron) - Dead/Corpse-like: The Undying Ones are described as corpse-like through their use of the shade of the evening (Euron again) All of this, to me, adds up to Euron, especially in relation to the eyes and the use of shade of the evening (the former two could be any Greyjoy member likely to turn up nearby). Furthermore, we also know that Euron is marrying Dany with the express purpose of getting a dragon to attain the Iron Throne, so this would link up with both the bride and the fire aspects of this section title.
  10. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    As you can see from my framework, I don't believe that the second triplet refers to claimants for the Iron Throne, so already we're going off on different tangents. I believe this, mainly because GRRM has set up the entirety of the Game of Thrones as something unimportant in the face of pure evil (the Others), so I'm not sure why he would devote an entire section of a series of prophecies that come to define Dany to a game that he is about to show is pointless. Furthermore, to my mind, the slayer of lies prophecies are using picture symbols that are part of a larger web of symbolism used in prophecy in ASoIaF. Euron, to my mind, doesn't fit that pattern. He is never actually described as a beast, which is important from a literary perspective, and he is primarily associated with the colour blue (e.g. shade of the evening, blue eyes, blue lips), which then associates him with ice, not stone. Finally, assuming I am correct about the second vision in the Bride of Fire section, we run into the problem of the same person appearing twice in the series of visions, which seems redundant. This however assumes I'm correct, which obviously isn't guaranteed at all haha. I haven't been on the forum as much as I'd have liked so I must have missed those - apologies to everyone I haven't credited in that case. Our earliest interaction between a POV character and Tyrion describes him as a gargoyle, so this must have been an important association that George wanted us to have with Tyrion's character: the fact that it remains as a description right the way through to ADwD suggests that this plan has not altered with the growing of story, so it remains an important factor. As such, I don't see it as unreasonable to base assumptions about Tyrion on his associations with gargoyles, especially given how symbols and visual metaphors are used in Geroge's prophecies. Regarding dragonblood and dragonriding, I have no strong feelings either way, to be honest. With regards to the Moqorro prophecy, I have a few ideas but nothing confirmed, set in stone or researched so they're not really worth voicing. I merely pointed out the Moqorro prophecy as part of the A+J=T evidence, in that it would be weird for a non-dragon to be surrounded by all of the dragons. The interpretation itself is irrelevant in this particular instance (alhtough I too see Tyrion as some sort of chaotic neutral at this point - this fits with his stone monkey symbolism too [see the LmL essay titled Tyrion Targaryen]).
  11. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Hey LM - thanks for reading and commenting Much appreciated. So with regards to your first comment, about the daughter of death, I believe that these three deaths led to statements of fact that became epiphanies for her, with these epiphanies being integral to the waking of the dragons. With Viserys' death, she notes that Fire cannot kill a dragon (Dany VI, AGoT). This realisation allows her to walk into Drogo's pyre, and that is the key to her fire transformation. This fire transformation ikey to a lot of Lightbringer forging/Azor Ahai symbolism (see this essay from LmL), so in this way it is important for the reintroduction of the dragons. With Rhaego's death, Mirri Maz Duur was revealed to not have Dany's interests at heart. In doing so, she teaches Daenerys that "only death can pay for life". This epiphany led to Dany realising that death would be needed for the dragon's, hence the sacrifice of MMD. Whether she was actually needed as a sacrifice, or whether enough deaths had occurred already to bring them to life, is debatable: nevertheless, it was this epiphany that enabled her to realise that the dragon eggs could hatch. And then Rhaegar's death, as I said, led to her realisation that she was the last dragon. In realising that she was the last dragon, then that allowed her to tie together these threads - as the last dragon, she cannot be killed by fire (hence her walk into the pyre, allowing her to become fire-transformed), and she must also wake the dragon (as the fever dream ends up telling her to do).
  12. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Glad you enjoyed them Re Tyrion: I am firmly in camp (natural) Targ, so I think we'll always be at an impasse over that one haha I agree with you on the semantics point as well. I'd just like to point out the following string of metaphors. Tyrion is referred to as a monster on a number of occasions and, as he himself states, "monsters are dangerous beasts" (ASoS, Tyrion VI). So, he is a monster, a beast and a stone gargoyle. The gargoyles themselves are often described as misshapen (as is Tyrion), and (from what I can remember) the ones described are either dragons, wyverns or hellhounds (on Dragonstone) or could once have been lions (on Winterfell's First Keep). So, regardless of his heritage, the symbolism surrounding Tyrion fits. Which then leads to the question: if it is Tyrion, what lie could Dany slay? His birth is the only one I can think of (although I recognise that I'm biased towards this answer, and this trio only really fits a hidden identities schema). Re the animals vs men she could have sex with, I don't necessarily believe the two are incompatible. For instance, Dany rides her silver to consummate her marriage with Drogo. If I'm right about the smiling corpse man being Euron, and about him marrying her to get her dragon(s), then she may be riding a dragon into her marriage with Euron. (Re not riding Drogon: If she is kidnapped, for instance, it is possible she may not be able to ride Drogon. Alternatively, and perhaps more plausibly, she rides Drogon to take back the dragon (or dragons) that Euron has stolen, and is entrapped into a marriage with him becuase he's a tricksy and mean man). Finally, Ghost may be the animal mount, and she be the bride of fire to Jon (this was proposed in the Boiled Leather Audio Moment released yesterday for patreon supporters). So I don't think that the two ideas are necessarily mutually exclusive. Yay for the added note on 3c): Love a bit of double meaning! hahaRe the blue eyes not always being bright but always blue, I believe that holds if you're looking for a relationship between Baratheon eye colours and descriptors. What we are looking for is something that links bright eyes together and how that holds for any potential suitors that Dany may have. As I said, the main thing that linked descriptions of bright eyes was that they were blue i.e. so not all blue eyes are bright, but a heck of a lot of bright eyes are blue. And it so happens that Euron has at least one blue eye. Bonus blue eye bonanza in spoiler tab: it's entirely irrelevant to the HotU visions but I got sidetracked looking at blue eye stuff so it's in the spoiler tab if anyone wants to get derailed. Re the bright and the dark dichotomy: I think that colour descriptions for eyes and other adjectives can be somewhat independent. So it is possible to have bright blue and bright black eyes, for instance. That is not to say that Euron's eye is not dark in some Sauron-esque fashion, i.e. he has decided to use Dany for some nefarious purpose, but I believe that that can be separated from whether his eyes are literally bright in colour or dark in colour. Moreover, I don't think it would be possible to equate the visions in Moqorro's dream of dragons to descriptions of eyes and eye colour: it seems like that would be a bit too far, even for George. Especially in consideration of bright eyes and blue eyes having such a heavy association with ice, and dragons are the antithesis of that. I liek the corpse idea very much: TWOW spoiler in tab: Thanks glad you enjoyed it
  13. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Hey Lady BB, Hope you enjoyed the last post of this Re the Moqorro vision, I know it is loose but I didn't want to have to go through evaluating evidence pro or anti his Targ-hood - there's loads of that milling about already haha having said that, the symbolism surrounding his character is, IMO, too hefty to be ignored... I'll just point to *this LmL essay*, because he goes through this in a lot of detail and far more coherently than I can, but it's what sold me on an idea I was initially highly sceptical of. Plus, as I believe I said, I just don't see how "Blackfyre descendant" can appear twice in the same passage of visions - it seems a little redundant. I have covered the three mounts - let me know what you think
  14. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Final summary I believe each trio of visions associated with a description can be placed on a tighter framework than has previously been proposed and this allows for a far more coherent interpretation of the visions. These are: 1) Daughter of death: 3 deaths that led to the epiphanies she needed to birth the dragons in to the world – Viserys showed her that fire cannot kill a dragon, Mirri Maz Duur’s in utero murder of Rhaego taught her that only death can pay for life, and the reminder of Rhaegar’s death on the Trident ensured that Daenerys is the last dragon. 2) Slayer of lies: Dany will slay the lies surrounding 3 people’s identities: she will show people that Aegon is not a true Targaryen, only a mummer’s dragon, that Tyrion is a stone dragon and that either R+L=J or Stannis is not Azor Ahai Reborn. 3) Bride of fire: Dany will marry 3 men that are heavily associated with her dragons: Drogo, her mount to bed, where she wedded fire in his funeral pyre; Euron, her mount to dread, who will marry her to gain a dragon to attempt to steal the Iron Throne; and Jon, her mount to love, who will use her dragons to end the War for the Dawn, defeating an army of ice at the Trident.
  15. A new framework for some of the HotU visions

    Bride of fire I believe that these may be Dany’s three mounts: one to bed, one to dread and one to love. I also believe that, as is implied by her being the bride of fire, these are marriages that are tied to her dragons in a very intimate manner. Once again, I’ll be covering these out of order, given that two of the visions have essentially reached a consensus, so I’ll devote more time to the debated vision at the end of this section. Hizdahr zo Loraq is notably missing from this list, as he married Dany in order to subdue her dragons, not to gain the use of them, hence she is not a bride of fire in this marriage. This is why I believe he is ineligible for consideration for these 3 visions and for the 3 mounts (as I believe the two are linked). 3a) Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. I believe this is the HotU representation of Dany’s wedding night with Khal Drogo, i.e. this is her riding her mount to bed (because she was not in love with Drogo at this point – she was terrified of him and what would happen). Obviously, Drogo is important for the dragons, because she receives her eggs as a wedding gift and it is his pyre that brings them into the world. I believe it is Drogo’s funeral pyre when Dany becomes the bride of fire: this passage is rife with marriage metaphors, including flames that “writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding” and the desire to “rush into the flames to beg for his forgiveness and take him inside her one last time, the fire melting the flesh from their bones until they were as one, forever.” Heck, Dany even outright states “This is a wedding, too”. And so the bride of fire became the mother of dragons. 3c) A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. This is commonly believed to be Jon Snow, given the association between Lyanna and blue winter roses. The implication of “filling the air with sweetness” suggests love, and so this could potentially be the mount for love that is prophesied earlier in the chapter. Daenerys being the bride of fire in this instance is likely to be the use of her dragons in the upcoming War for the Dawn: this is especially likely in light of her later dream of defeating an army of Ice using dragonfire at the Trident (Dany III, ASoS). And now to the controversial one… 3b) A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. The most common interpretations of this vision appear to be JonCon, Euron Greyjoy and Victarion Greyjoy. I think we can rule out JonCon for the simple fact that he is not going to be marrying Dany any time soon, nor are allying with the dragons going to be an important feature any time soon. Moreover, I concur with other analyses that suggest that smiling grey lips is George playing with words for House Greyjoy. So, the debate comes down to which of the Greyoy brothers it’s likely to be. I’m siding with Euron for a couple of reasons. Firstly, his use of Shade of the Evening is excessive, and the other excessive users described at length are the Undying Ones. Notably they are little more than “blue shadows” (remembering that shadows are equated with death) and do not breathe; thus, excessive use of shade of the evening is associated with corpses. This link is admittedly tenuous, given that Victarion had Moqorro do some weird blood magic on his arm that could make him corpse-like in some fashion. Secondly, the eyes are described as bright. Having used asearchoficeandfire.com (“bright eye” as the search term), there are very few situations when this is used. Of relevance here are the associations with mockery and eye colour. 3 people have eyes that are bright with mockery: Denzo (who “helped” Quentyn in The Spurned Suitor, ADWD), Littlefinger (when capturing Ned in Ned XIII, AGoT) and Euron himself (“Euron’s smiling eye was bright with mockery.” The Reaver, AFFC). Regarding eye colour, Euron has a blue eye and an eye patch. Bright blue eyes are much more common than you’d think in Westeros. For instance, the Baratheons all have blue eyes, and Edric Storm’s are described as bright and he is the spitting image of Renly and Robert, who therefore also must have had bright blue eyes. The wights have bright blue eyes. The Ice Dragon constellation has a bright blue eye. The Tullys have blue eyes, and both Edmure Tully and Rickon Stark (who has the Tully look) have bright eyes. Daario Naharis has bright blue eyes. AND so does Euron – “The torches along the walls were burning bright, and so was he, blue lips, blue eye, and all.” (The Reaver, AFFC). One common objection to Euron being the fulfilment of this prophecy is that he only has one eye – he doesn’t, he wears the eye patch for effect. His other eye is black. And whaddya know? Ravens are consistently described as having bright black eyes (Prologue, ACoK; Bran II, ADWD); with crows and ravens so heavily associated, the raven’s bright eyes should imply the brightness of this Crow’s Eye. Thus, Euron has two bright eyes. Victarion, on the other hand, has none of this bright eye imagery. So, how does this relate to Daenerys being the bride of fire? Well, we know that Euron wants to marry her because of her dragons - perhaps this vision is meant to imply he succeeds. (TWOW spoilers in spoiler tab). If this marriage does come to pass, it is likely that he would be a mount to dread: he isn't exactly a nice bloke, and he is looking to steal one of Dany's dragons to boot.