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  1. I don't know about all the ages but there are certain numbers that crop up over and over again in a symbolically relevant fashion. Some are obvious - 3 like the three heads of the dragon of the Targaryens, a likely reference to the three primary dragon meteors resulting from @LmL's hypothesised moon disaster. Similarly with "thousand(s)" of anything. Similarly, the 12 + 1 pattern is heavily associated with the Last Hero and his twelve companions and there are numerous instances of this in the series (see @LmL's Green Zombies series for the proofs). 7 is heavily ice associated. The Faith of the Seven uses crystal, which is a description applied to both the Wall and to the Others' swords. The Kingsguard have cloaks of snow and scales like hard ice (The Kingbreaker, ADWD) and there are seven of them. There are seven involved in the confrontation in AGOT Prologue: I slice it up as 5 Others, Ser Waymar and Will looming over all, but it could be 5 background Others, the Other Waymar fights and Ser Waymar himself. The Eyrie is made of white and blue marble (ice colours, marble as an icy stone) and has seven towers. The Starks are the family at the heart of the North, with all of their concomitant icy symbolism, and they are a family of seven. Finally, the last one I have spotted seems to be 9, but I'm not sure what to make of it exactly. There are 9 rivers in the riverlands which is itself a crossing over point and home to the Trident (dropping a 3 reference within it too). Varamyr has 9 deaths - 8 animal ones and his true death (in which he accidentally causes Thistle to look like a weirwood tree). There are 9 sword points to the King of Winters crown, made of iron and bronze to fight against the cold. There's the weirwood grove of nine in which all old gods worshipping black brothers take their vows. And there's the Knight of Ninestars in the Vale and he is specifically described as having icy blue eyes and a beak of a nose. ASOIAF is actually referenced in the literature section of the number 9 for having 9 Westerosi regions (The Seven Kingdoms + Dorne and Crownlands) and the 9 Free Cities. Not entirely sure how to interpret it, but there could be a link there to the Nine Worlds of Norse myth and thus a link to Yggdrasil and thus weirwoods?? There's one specific quote I wanted to address from the quote pool you pulled. There is actually a three, two, one counting down pattern here, if you add Ghost. 3 sons are also 3 brothers, potentially linking them to the 3 brothers of the Night's Watch who found the Others in the Prologue of AGOT. I am relatively in favour of this interpretation, as the Prologue is literally the chapter before, and one of those brothers was killed in this very chapter, plus the Starks are heavily linked to the Night's Watch. One of these pups (Grey Wind) is later beheaded for its owner betraying their oath, reminiscent of Gared's beheading for desertion. Then there are the two daughters, a potential reference to the two moons that used to be in the sky (if you subscribe to @LmL's moon destruction theory anyway). This also matches with one moon being fiery (Sansa with her kissed by fire hair) and icy (Arya, who is likened to Lyanna numerous times, with Lyanna serving as an ice moon figure). Sansa's wolf is dead, in accordance with the fire moon being the moon that was destroyed to cause the Long Night (per @LmL's theory). And finally there is the One, Ghost. Jon is equated with being the wanderer or the Stranger on numerous occasions and seems likely to be (one of) the Azor Ahai Reborn figure(s). What this sequence means, I'm less sure of. Is it just telling us about key players in the War for the Dawn? This scene also has an obscure 9 reference, in that 9 people are gathered around the scene: Bran, Robb, Jon, Theon, Jory Cassell, Ned, Hullen, Harwin and another man (who remains unnamed). Not sure if that is at all relevant, but hey ho.
  2. Once again, thanks for the fantastic essay @LmL So, I had several ideas during the course of reading the thread, but they kind of comingle so I'm just going to info dump/spitball, and I'll try to reference the person who inspired the thought, but I may get mixed up so sorry if I misquote/misreference/misinterpret people. With that disclaimer: @Pain killer Jane Blood is also associated with fire and water too: And blood is red rain multiple times too... The blood as milk idea is intriguing from the sense that, symbolically, milk is associated with icy/snowy things a lot. So, blood is related to both ice and fire - is this why blood magic is so powerful and dangerous? It is the union of ice and fire, the abominable sword without a hilt? Speaking of unions of fire and ice, there was mention of Val as potentially having a hand in Jon's resurrection. Her colouring is that of ice and fire as well. Here, we see Val dressed entirely in white, much like the Kingsguard and therefore, potentially, the Others. Note that her clothing is could be regarded as related to skinchanging: wool, leather, bearskin, weirwood - is this telling us that the Others are skinchangers too? If their origin is in the weirnet, I assume so. This connection would be reinforced with her blue eyes. Her hair (elsewhere described as a long golden braid) tells us that she is, in a sense, kissed by fire too: I go in to some detail elsewhere exploring the relationship between gold hair, fiery crowns, and how this indicates the acquisition of the fire of the gods. A long golden braid reminds me of the tale of Rapunzel (taken from wikipedia): However, Val is pretty heavily ice associated, in contrast to the blood/fire or Ghost's red/white colour pairing. And not her contrast to Ygg-ritte (can't believe I missed that pun for years): Val, the icy moon maiden, is penned up (like an animal - so skinchanging) in the celestial tower by Stannis, the Night's King (again with Rapunzel). Things described as lovely appear to have moon maiden/shy maiden symbolism: Margaery is "lovely as a dawn"; Cersei is "lovely to look at but cold" (note that she shares Val's gold hair/white skin colouring), Lysa is lovely as she marries Jon Arryn and thus becomes a kissed-by-fire moon maid sheathed in ice, Tyrion describes Tysha as lovely, Sansa is described as lovely twice, and the maidens and sorcerors in Drogo's pyre are "lovely, so lovely" and "the loveliest things [Dany] had ever seen"; music is a lovely thing for girls; and that's just AGOT. So Val has the concomitant shy moon maid symbolism. But she does not need to smile - is this to do with her icy connotations? i.e. if the Others were the first in the wwnet and fiery AA pushed them out by carving faces (Yg(g)ritte's smile making her come alive), then the previous icy inhabitants did not need faces? or is it that the ice moon is still in the sky and thus has not had its face carved yet? Speaking of Ygg-ritte's smile making her face come alive, is this part of the white tree/wight tree pun? This would fit with @sweetsunray's proposition that the solar figure (Rhaegar) was trying to rescue his beloved (Lyanna) from the underworld (weirnet) - because rescuing someone from the underworld would require a resurrection and thus a wighting, right? So what comes alive with music? All moon meteor and therefore weirnet activation symbols, which fits with singing/horn blasts as the trigger for the comet steering. Note that the last of these, Grey Wind, heralds the attack on Jaime Lannister at the Whispering Wood. Jaime, with his kissed-by-golden-fire hair, is wearing his golden armour and wielding his golden sword, but is sheathed in his icy KG cloak - so we're seeing the ice and gold-fire symbols here. He is being painted silver i.e. whitewashed by the moon (thanks @Pain killer Jane for point that out to me on my other thread) and is attacked by Robb, the King of Winter, at the head of an army wielding lances of silver flame. There's probably a lot more there, but I'm too tired to think properly haha Final thing for the pairing of milk/honey ice/fire symbolism, before I go to bed, is porridge. So faith is better with milk (ice) and honey (= gold = fire). Porridge is, of course, made from oats, and oats are often used for horse feed. So, milk (ice) and honey (fire) is used to flavour the (astral) horse feed and make faith better. And this astral horse feed goes flying - a la greenseers and meteors - and tries to take out a maester in the trunk of his body (trunk being an official medical term for the torso/chest). And what does Sansa get fed when her moon blood is on her? Sorry that all of the above isn't a little more coherent, but hopefully someone can make more of that mass of symbolism than I can.... night all
  3. Isn't that what the naughty greenseer/Azor Ahai types do? They are not gods, but they want to be god-like so they steal the fire of the gods breaking the natural order of the world. That is Lann the Clever, stealing L'Oreal shade 053 Golden sun unnaturelle to hide his roots (tree pun accidental) By addressing gold hair on its own, I didn't mean to imply a lack of red/gold connection, but I'm in the process of disentangling the connotations of individual fire colours at the minute and I haven't gotten to the stage where I'm piecing the jigsaw puzzle back together yet. Red-gold does make sense in light of what I've interpreted individual colours as so far: red as (blood) magic and old as LB. Is this also a Grey King thing? That's not quite what I meant: I was talking more methodologically, in that one line of evidence in books of this scale is insufficient to draw a sweeping conclusion. Having said that, I am in the process of writing up a series of essays about Martin's use of language surrounding fire and fire colour, and I believe that all of the fire colours are dissociable and have different meanings but that these all cohere to tell the story of the forging of LB. That is why many Lightbringer symbols are red AND orange AND yellow/gold (depending on whether the fire itself is mudane or magical) - because these are the three key aspects of the tale: blood sacrifice, a fire in the night and the fire of the gods. This is something I had also gleaned from my colour analyses and, again, I did not mean to imply that they are the same. I was just pointing out the confluence of symbolism that all points to the fire of the gods surrounding people of gold hair. No, that is just me misreading it I think. It works far better to have consistent sixes than some sixes and a random five haha besides, we never actually see Will ice-transformed so 6 Others + Royce still makes the magic 7. Those are all really interesting connotations: the only reason I stuck with the crown imagery is because, in the essay this was originally supposed to be part of, the fiery crown just kept popping up, so it was easier to stay consistent. So I found my initial plan for this, and it actually had the hands of gold in there, although less coherent and with fewer insights. So we have the Cymmeri wife who forges magical armour (skinchanging), the Gipps wife who whitewashes her hair and carries a wicker shield, and the Zoqora wife who drove the chariot of (presumably) solar king figure Huzhor Amai, who saved the world wearing the skin of another human (a cloak made from the pelt of the king of the Hairy Men) - a perverse sable cloak?
  4. That's pretty interesting - it's also a mutual destruction/separation of lovers caused by disrespecting a god... I can't think of much worse disrespect than trying to steal their fire, knowledge and supernatural abilities haha
  5. That would certainly fit with the jealous/wrathful moon maiden figure... the poisoned apple of Snow White's stepmother too? That's been echoing around my head too but without a solid textual foundation.
  6. I’m currently working on an analysis of fire colour and what it may mean and I found myself going off on a not-particularly-relevant-for-my-analysis-but-cool tangent: golden hair is kissed by fire, much like red hair. NB: for this to be a coherent essay, you will need to have familiarity with the symbolism outlined in @LmL's Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire. Not just the physical second moon theory, but the symbolic motifs underpinning the conclusions, because I can't explain them all for length and potential accidental plagiarism reasons, and I will be referring to a lot of them. We know that the key Lannisters in ASOIAF have golden-hair. Less focused upon is how this golden hair is related to the sun or touched by the sun in many scenes: There is a common myth that explains why this might be the case, relayed to us in the very first book: Anyone familiar with LmL’s symbolism will recognise the familiar “challenging the gods” tale. On this occasion, Lann tricks the solar deity and acquires the fire of the gods to brighten his hair. Note how golden hair in the previous quote series is likened to having a crown of gold upon one’s head: so, by the process of symbolic transference, we can see that Lann the Clever crowned himself with the fire of the gods. However, it would be a mistake from just this to refer to golden hair as “kissed by fire” in a similar way to red hair. So I searched “gold hair” in and this is the complete list of characters with gold hair. Lannisters: Joffrey, Cersei, Jaime, (formerly) Tywin, Tyrion (black and gold: Sansa III, ASOS) The blood of Old Valyria (silver-gold): Daenerys, Rhaego (HotU vision), Aurane Waters, King Aerys II, Aerion Brightflame, Lysono Maar (Lyseni spymaster for Golden Company) House Dondarrion (red-gold): Beric Dondarrion, Ser Manfred Dondarrion (The Hedge Knight) Other: one of Victarion’s sacrifices (red-gold hair; Victarion, ADWD), Lynesse Hightower, Tyene Sand, Rown Goldtree It appears that all of these characters have some sort of LmL’s Azor Ahai symbolism. The Lannisters Azor Ahai symbolism I've just touched upon. The Blood of Old Valyria appear to be descended from the Great Empire of the Dawn and they are magical dragon riders. House Dondarrion appears to exist solely to provide Azor Ahai metaphors: Beric is resurrected multiple times and fights with a burning sword whilst his House sigil is a lightning bolt that opportunely struck enemies when a member of House Dondarrion’s sword was broken in two. The Other section will require a bit more detailing. I haven’t been able to classify the symbolism of the seven whores Victarion burns, so this is just spitballing really, but there is something there related to sevens. Seven is a number which appears to be associated with ice: think the Faith of the Seven, the sevens stars Hugor of the Hill pulled from the heavens to make a crown (there’s that fire of the gods as a crown thing again), there are seven ice-transformed beings in the Game of Thrones prologue (5 Others, Ser Waymar Royce and Will), seven towers of the Eyrie (an ice castle in the icy moon mountains), seven members of the Kingsguard etc etc. So seven women, trained in the seven sighs, are burned to death to appease both R’hllor and the Drowned God (and the Drowned God is likely a representative of the fire-transformed moon goddess/mermaid): is this a foreshadowing of fire transforming the ice moon? Anyway, if I am right about golden hair being kissed by fire, a woman with gold hair acting as a blood sacrifice is a symbolic parallel to Nissa Nissa. The rest are a little more straightforward. House Hightower is one of a few very old Houses in the Reach, and it has been hypothesised that they may be descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn. As such, this links them to Azor Ahai, the Bloodstone Emperor. Tyene Sand is the daughter of a septa and Oberyn Martell. As such, she is the result of a union between ice and fire (remembering that the Faith is heavily associated with ice, and Oberyn with fire or the sun’s fire). Another notable blond-haired, blue-eyed woman is Brienne of Tarth, whose sigil contains golden suns and silver moons. So ice and fire, moon and sun, Nissa Nissa and Azor Ahai, and the result of their union. And where is Tyene now? She’s going to infiltrate the Great Sept of Baelor: the fire-transformed offspring is entering one of the symbols of the ice moon, as part of the endlessly cyclical nature of Martin’s symbolism. Finally, we have Rowan Gold-tree and we are going to devote quite a bit of time to her. This is from the wiki: So, we have a love that is poisoned (by betrayal): check for “a love that kills/sex and swordplay”. An apple is a potent symbol of the fire of the gods: think of the fruit of the Tree of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden that is frequently depicted as an apple, and this has been reflected in ASOIAF symbolism too. So check for more Azor Ahai symbolism. This fire of the gods apple is then wrapped in Rowan’s kissed by golden fire hair, and out emerges Rowan’s tree burning with the sun’s golden fire. As LmL explains far better in his most recent essay, a rowan tree (which we could conceivably call this golden tree belonging to Rowan) is a type of ash tree, a famous mythological ash tree is Yggdrasil, and one of the most vivid callouts to Yggdrasil in the novels is the weirwood tree. Notably, the weirwood tree is crowned with fire, as its leaves are described as “bits of flame”, and it is a fantastic representation of the fire of the gods i.e. enormous magical power. Why would Rowan plant a tree in response to being jilted? I would suggest that this is part of a jealous or vengeful Nissa Nissa motif: think Cersei jealous of Jaime's maleness and of the miller's wife in Theon's dream biting his penis off with her vagina teeth (Theon V, ACOK). In the case of Rowan, she brings down the fire of the gods (as a moon-meteor apple) infused with the sun's fire (her golden hair) to create a burning tree (the weirwood): otherwise known as the events that caused the Long Night. If her lover was a solar figure, that would then "kill" him, as the Long Night killed the sun. What of Rowan Gold-tree’s family? Her father was Garth Greenhand, who planted the three intertwined weirwoods at Highgarden, sat in a throne of living wood (like a greenseer), acted as a Corn King and horned god and so on and so forth. All in all, he’s a pretty important guy, for his symbolism if nothing else: LmL devotes a long section of one of his essays to this. One sentence in particular jumped out to me in light of this essay is the following: Note that if something golden is analogous to something being on fire, a golden hand would be a fiery hand, and a fiery hand is one of the many moon-meteor-explosion motifs. Why did this jump out to me? Kissed by golden fire, Jaime Lannister, who smells of ash (ash being a weirwood symbol) when the morning sun is in his hair (indicating fire transformation) (Cersei I, AFFC), wants to be referred to as the fiery hand, in the same manner as an old King of the Reach and descendent of Garth Greenhand. Why? Because, as a Lannister, he is also a descendant of Garth Greenhand. So Rowan Gold-tree, who used her kissed by fire golden hair and planted a golden fire rowan tree from a fire of the gods apple, may have had a son, Lann the Clever, who challenged the gods to steal the sun’s fire and use it as a crown. Once again, we have this cyclical symbolism that so embodies Azor Ahai and Azor Ahai Reborn. Earlier, I pointed out the parallel between Lann using the sun’s fire to crown himself and Hugor of the Hill being crowned with seven stars: Hugor of the Hill you say? Sounds a lot like a Westerlands bastard name to me. And it turns out that Lann the Clever, founder of the primary House of the Westerlands, is a bastard. A closer look at Hugor of the Hill and it turns out that he, too, is saturated with Azor Ahai symbolism. His crown of stars was a celestial gift from the Father and he was gifted a beautiful willowy maid (with willow as yet another tree with assorted Yggdrasil and therefore weirwood connotations) by the Maid and this woman bore many children for Hugor (like many children that are born of Lann the Clever, Garth Greenhand, the Grey King, The Night’s King and Durran Godsgrief). His sons had armour forged by the Smith himself, so conceivably this is magic armour, much as one of Huzhor Amai’s three wives forged awesome armour for him: note that Huzhor Amai is a hero figure whose name is phenomenally similar to Azor Ahai and that this has been potentially linked to the Great Empire of the Dawn. Furthermore, the Pentoshi sing of someone named Hukko, tought to be a parallel of Hugor, who slew the seven swan maidens and lured blood people into the Velvet Hills as a blood sacrifice to the Seven: sounds a lot like the darker Garth Greenhand who demanded blood sacrifice to change the seasons, as a dark corn king should. Finally, Azor Ahai Reborn symbol par excellence, witty trickster (like Lann the Clever) Tyrion Lannister, takes the name Hugor Hill. In a very abrupt conclusion (because I never know how to finish these things off), I believe I have sufficiently demonstrated how heavily golden hair is related to Azor Ahai symbolism and, given that much of this symbolism is related to fire transformation, I think we can safely say that golden hair is a symbol of being kissed by fire too. If you got all the way down here, thanks for reading. Comments would be appreciated, and potential implications for the actual story even more so (because I'm super bad at that)
  7. @LmL's Sacred Order of Green Zombies series touches on some of these parallels and offers some pretty cool implications for it related to Summer king/Winter king mythological archetypes and how they relate to the series. I find the podcasts easier to digest, personally, but both are available from the link
  8. I did mean to mention it but completely forgot because it turns out buses are not great places for typing up ASOIAF material on your mobile - who knew? The Faith itself has quite a few icy ties too as crystals are pretty heavily ice associated: the Wall is consistently described as crystalline, the Others' swords look like a shard of blue crystal, and Dany drinks shade of the evening from a crystal glass presented on a silver platter by a dwarf dressed in blue and purple, to name a few. So having this ice represented as black marble in Oldtown, the site of Aegon I Targaryen being anointed in the Faith, home to the Hightowers and potential GEotD trading post, makes sense to me. There appear to be a lot of other LB-y symbolism around the Great Sept of Baelor i.e. the untransformed ice temple at the site of a dragon landing. There are multiple occasions that it kind of creates bloodstone: Arya gets blood on the statue of Baelor climbing to see Ned's head stump bleed all over its steps. Then Cersei bleeds her moon blood all over the Mother's Altar, and she gets bloody feet doing her walk of shame from the sept to the Red Keep: bloody feet from the ice temple to the dragon's landing castle that looks red as blood when it rains. And there's an awful lot of singing reaching for the stars, candles twinkling like stars and sunlight blazing off crystal towers around the Battle of the Blackwater. Another black marble structure I forgot about is the labyrinthine Guildhall of the Alchemists, found on the Street of Sisters i.e. just below the Great Sept of Baelor. Does this kind of complete the set of "magicks", for want of a better word? Fire-transformed ice as the creation point of the fiery jade demon wildfire (which has to link to greenseeing magic in some capacity, surely)? Ngl, now you've mentioned it I want this. Bring on the ice dragons! (TWOIAF compares ice dragons to whales and leviathans, just saying. Not entirely relevant, but cool.) Having gone back and re-read the end of Dany IV, ACOK, the Undying's focus appears to be on Dany. So beyond all the LB symbolism (dragon shrieking, Dany's ecstasy and horror, and the places the last three Undying are groping), I don't think it's 100% certain whether they're going for the dragons, Dany or using Dany to get the dragons. What I do find really interesting is the weirwood symbolism. ETA 1: I wrote this sentence before i had actually fully gone through and selected my symbolism search terms..... Changing to freaking awesome! Anyway, within the vision: But mostly this. Look what happens to the Undying when they get burned: These are my highlight search terms/themes. 1) Ribbons of flesh and cutting things to ribbons: There does appear to be other cool ribbon symbolism around water and mist and stuff that I am going to have to look into now I am aware of it, but it's not really relevant here. What is clear is that all of these scenes are drenched with exactly the kind of "whoops, looks like I'm busy killing my friends/allies" dreaming/imagery associated with BSE/AA dreams (as in Jon's burning sword atop the Wall dream). ETA 2 going into the symbolism a little more: a) Arya has ascended into the kingdom of the leaves, which I think I'm right in saying embodies the celestial realm. Presumably, this is also the domain of the weirwood? And she busily starts hacking away and slashing things to ribbons. so b ) moon maiden Sansa getting shredded for her moon blood is associated with someone in the kingdom of leaves busy hacking away. So this is yet another suggestion of naughty greenseers ruining everything for everyone. c) I'm reminded of the scratches across the face of god here. d) A list of people who just won't die or stay dead, associated with the presentation of a romantic rose by kissed-by-fire Red Ronnet which is also the iron rose of war, for which the poor guy loses a hand. and this is when Brienne wakes up for the third and final time - after slicing off the end of someone's arm. 2) Kinda reminded me of Mirri and her ululating wail on Drogo's pyre, and of Coldhands apparent death ritual on the elk. 3) Their bones are wood, people! This rings a bell.... 5) Yes, it is out of order but that's on purpose. Because, hey, the blue ice people who have wooden bones are running around with their hands on fire. Kinda like a tree that's been set on fire, or a tree whose bloodstained hands look like bits of flame. Remind you of anything? I mean, whew, I'm really struggling... 4) So the weirwood Undying are dancing, writhing and spinning in the flames which reminded me of: And whaddya know? Dany also hired these dancers for her alchemical wedding: Boy, these flames really know how to put on a show. I've italicised Dany opening her arms to them because she does this as well to the Undying: "They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . ." so more parallels in word choice and imagery. So, The ice people, who have been dead for a long time and are currently appearing to symbolise bone and fire i.e. weirwood trees, are dancing like a tree that has been dead a long time and is in the process of being resurrected, and this is associated with a wedding and the transformative union of the sun and the moon. I feel like I may have stumbled across something here........ ETA 3: In light of this, I saw a couple of throwaway lines with reference to indigo, which with hindsight may not be so throwaway. So, potentially, we have associating with dawn in the context of green(-seeing zombies). If the indigo Undying have symbolically turned into weirwoods by coming into contact with dragons, then we have indigo as a herald of the dawn, in a sense. I am reminded of this line from Arya IV, ACOK: Coming from a chapter that is so rich in LB symbolism, I think it's pretty noteworthy.
  9. I didn't even notice that haha that's really interesting... We could even take it further by adding in the Heart of Winter and I think it gets even... cooler. Reading the walls from the outside in, you have the moon meteors, a war, a fire transformed iciness (I think associated with magic) and lastly the Heart of Winter. Emanating outwards we have: Daenerys who destroys the Heart (of Winter) ==> fire-transformed icy marble ==> a war linked to WF implying the War for the Dawn ==> moon meteor metaphors (bear in mind that Dany leaves by ship, becoming a sea dragon, and one of the first scenes of her as a sea dragon has sun-and-moon coloured Viserion and summer-and-fall coloured Rhaegal trying to get on top of each other during playwrights).
  10. I don't think it is. Those walls are pretty heavy on the ol' moon destruction thang. You have the red sandstone and cooler walls. I wasn't able to find any other reference to any structure built of red sandstone in the entirety of the extended publications. But we do have red sandstone Mountains of Dorne. And the Red Viper was fostered at Sandstone, seat of House Qorgyle whose vigil is 3 black scorpions on red. Similarly, Riverrun is a sandstone structure built on the Red Fork (and the Green?) of the Trident. Consider the animals on the walls too: snakes are slithering (and the HOTU is described as coiled like a snake, a pre-destruction moon image), then kites fly (like the moon meteors down to earth) before we finally see fish swimming (like the moon meteors landing in the sea). Not entirely sure what to make of the wolves, zorses and elephants: wolves as in the direwolf of House Stark makes the most sense. The elephants to me invoke images of Volantis and thus the Valyrian freehold and thus dragons. The zorses as black and white horses - if entering the wwnet is riding a horse potentially we have people who rode both the black tree and the white tree? Reaching I know, but I tried haha. Moving on to the grey granite wall. The only consistent structure for this is Winterfell. This would makes sense given the images of war we see on this wall - it's the War for the Dawn. Moreover, it is banded with iron, invoking the metals of winter - dark and strong to fight against the cold. Also, George is very careful with his use of iron vs steel in the Prologue of AGOT; Royce's steel sword is no protection against the cold of the Others, instead splintering like a tree struck by lightning (ooh ice lightning again). By contrast, Will is comforted by the taste of cold iron in his mouth. Finally we have black marble and a gate studded with gold eyes. References to back marble are, again, few and far between. There's a black marble Valyrian sphinx guarding the small council chamber and Ser Gregor's head is placed on a black marble plinth when presented to Dorne. Marble structure more generally tend to be associated with ice - the Eyrie is built almost entirely of blie-veined white marble, Whitewalls is built of gold-veined white marble and the Wall is as white and smooth as marble after it kills Jarl's climbing team in ASOS. The heroes of Qarth are made from white and Green marble - icy greenseers? There's a lot more marble but I'm on the bus to work right now so can't classify it all fully but a brief look suggests iciness. I have actually been looking at eye colour recently and thought gold eyes and yellow eyes might be similar. Interestingly, it isn't. Gold eyes are associated with Tywin (The solar king), the dragons (Rhaegal and Meraxes once, Viserion numerous times and, although I can't recall it being mentioned, I presume golden Dragon Sunfyre), CotF, the people of Naath (who have an island seemingly protected by god) and the Lengii (who are associated with demons). The dissolves also get a golden eye mention: Grey Wind and Lady both have gold eyes, Nymeria has yellow eyes like golden coins (i.e. dragons) and Summer... Well Summer has yellow eyes until Bran's fall and coma dream and then they turn gold... Is this wall the union of ice and fire transformation? Ice marble turned black by the Sun's fire? It certainly fits with Jon Snow's streaks of fire to rivers of black ice thing. I would write more but I think work may object to me being late on the grounds of "too busy with ASOIAF".
  11. Hi LmL - once again, thanks for a great podcast. So I was intrigued by the ice symbolism of Qarth and decided to have a mooch: It's lengthy so TL;DR: Qarth is dripping in ice symbolism, but potentially a corrupted fiery ice? As a colour symbolism girl, I was looking at the colours of "ice" and noticed the parallels to the warlocks - blue and white. Then I picked up the World book and read this: So Qarth has been lumped together with the GEotD and its likely capital. Alarm bells ringing. Try looking in to it further and... hey, the World book doesn't really have much to say about Qarth, no fair - is George hiding something? One of the few things it does have to say about anything Qartheen is the history of the pirate, Xandarro Xhore, the first pirate to start using the Basilisk Isles as a base of operations. He set up shop there around the same time as the Brotherhood of Bones - the milk men and the bone men (human avatars of weirwood bark, anyone?). You know the Basilisk Isles? The ones with ancient ruins of black stone indicating a Dawn Age civilisation, and the massive statue of a toad made of greasy black stone, and formerly home to blood sorcerors who mated beasts to women to “bring forth twisted half-human children”. Kinda reminds me of somewhere else.... The Qartheen more generally are called "Milk Men" by the Dothraki because they are so pale. The many associations of milk are: the Kingsguard armour (AGOT, Sansa II; which is also icy steel (ACOK, Sansa I) and a snow-white cloak) and horses (ACOK, Sansa I), Sam's moon face is curdled milk a lot, the Other's are called milky white (AGOT, Prologue; ASOS, Sam I), the icy Milkwater river that forms from a glacier north of the Wall, the Black Gate glows with milk and moonlight, and dying of the cold is like floating in a "sea of warm milk" (AGOT, Prologue). And that's not everything, and that's just in ASOIAF proper. Speaking of dying of cold, we actually see one Ser Harwood Fell fall into the lake beneath Stannis' camp and contract hypothermia. A blue-lipped milk man? He sounds a helluva lot like a warlock! What do we know of House Fell? Well, one of the Fells was a member of the Kingsguard (so that ice symbolism) during the Dance who stayed loyal to Aegon II Targaryen. And Ser Thurgood Fell is one of the men who stayed loyal to Aerys during Robert's Rebellion, and he was slain by Robert himself at Summerhall: Thurgood's son promptly became one of Robert's men. They even have a crescent moon on their shield, above a field of spruce trees (according to semi-canon sources). Another blue-lipped person comes in nightmare form to Daenerys: No Dany! Don't try to make babies with the avatars of ice! That can get you in a whole heap of trouble - haven't you heard the story of the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch?! Mentioning Hizdahr, his family wears indigo and lilac. It's the indigo I want to focus on. Why? Well, there's some pretty interesting uses of the word "indigo". The indigo emperors are a line of YiTish emperors who ruled from Yin. One of their notable emperors was Choq Choq, "the humpbacked, fifteenth and last of the indigo emperors, who kept a hundred wives and a thousand concubines and sired daughters beyond count but was never able to produce a son." (TWOIAF) The Indigo Star is a Qartheen ship that brings Dany (in Meereen) news of Astapor and an offer of marriage from the first King Cleon - this is the chapter that Dany decides she's going to rule Meereen. The heart of the Undying is described as indigo no fewer than 5 times in the space of a couple of pages, and the livery of their dwarf servants is purple and blue. After that enormous diversion around Qarth, I will actually get to the shady trees. You mention the possibility that there is an association with lightning, given that they turn trees black. I did a bit of digging in to the colour symbolism of lightning, which I posted in Jon Ice-Eyes' thread about the duality of fire the other day. Most of the time, lightning is blue and white (so related to ice), but occasionally it is purple e.g. when Moqorro magics up a storm and the Dondarrion sigil. So, given the icy web of symbolism surrounding Qarth, lightning (which has icy colouring) striking the shade of the evening trees (with somewhat icy colouring) would be in keeping with this idea. I say "somewhat icy colouring", because blue and white is the colour pairing most associated with ice. Blue and black is more associated with the Baratheons blue (ice) eyes and black hair - a potential reference to their Storm King heritage? - and the wights blue eyes and black hands - burned hands, not burning hands? I find it really interesting that the traditional colour pairings are inverted with the weirwood trees and the shade of the evening trees. Traditionally, red is paired with black (a la the waves of night and moon blood, Drogon etc), and blue with white (for your traditional ice symbolism of the Others and the Wall). However, this gets swapped for the trees, for some reason. Are we looking at fire-transformed ice trees and ice-transformed fire trees? So, way more questions than answers, but Qarth has a pretty cool net of icy symbolism woven in with some LB shizz so... looking forward to hearing your thoughts on iciness in a future podcast
  12. Sorry, I didn't mean to... steal your thunder *pun intended, cue laugh track* (Hopefully this was aimed at me, because otherwise that doesn't work and I look very, very egotistical) I got pretty excited by the ice-lightning thing too. I'm less good with interpreting what it actually means for the main series, but I think it adds a nice twist to the Grey King vs the Storm God's thunderbolt story and thus the burning tree (i.e. weirwood?) motif. I'd be interested to hear what you make of the implications.
  13. If you have a look at the colour symbolism of ice, and colours that are frequently paired together, I do think there is something to be said for Dany having icy colouring. This is a very long and convoluted web and I can't provide quotes for those because I'm out at the moment and all my notes are at home, but here goes: Ice and ice crystals are most frequently associated with blue and white. You have the blue-white death needles under Bran in his coma dream, the Wall is described at blue and white on a number of occasions (linked to this, the glacier that is the source of the Milkwater is described as a blue-white wall of ice that reminds Jon of the Wall) and the Eyrie is the blue-and-white marble ice-castle that sits atop the Giant's Lance in the Mountains of the Moon. Speaking of the Eyrie, Lysa Arryn wears a cream velvet dress and a rope of sapphires and moonstones about her milk white neck during Tyrion's first trial-by-combat and when she herself is pushed out of the Moon Door by Littlefinger, both of which appear to be extended LB-forging metaphors if I'm not mistaken. And obviously, there are the wights, with their milk-pale skin and their blue star eyes, and the Others themselves: skin as pale as milk, milkglass bones, blue blood, burning blue eyes, glowing blue ice crystal swords that leave Royce's blade "splintered and twisted like a tree struck by lightning". Lightning is the only other thing I can find that appears as blue-white. At Queenscrown, "Lightning crashed down from the sky, a searing blue-white bolt that touched the top of the tower in the lake". During Brienne's fight with Rorge and Biter etc, the lightning makes "an axe gleam silvery blue". And as Davos is marched before Lord Borrell, "Lightning split the northern sky, etching the black tower of the Night Lamp against the blue-white sky" and "Lightning flashed outside, making the arrow loops blaze blue and white for half a heartbeat". There are also occurrence of blue-white lightning in The Mystery Knight and The Princess and the Queen. The only other color of lightning is purple. "The cog was drifting on a sea of dragonglass beneath a bowl of stars, but all around the storm raged on. East, west, north, south, everywhere he looked, the clouds rose up like black mountains, their tumbled slopes and collossal cliffs alive with blue and purple lightning." And House Dondarrion takes the purple lightning bolt as its sigil because of its origin story: A broken sword you say? And the lightning came to save you when all was doomed? And the only known member in ASOIAF is the resurrected, kissed-by-fire, Beric Dondarrion who goes around lighting his sword on fire? Huh... That's a coincidence. So, blue-white is the colour of ice, but it is also the colour of lightning, bringing lightning in to the realm of ice symbolism, especially considering that the Others move "fast as lightning" and leave Waymar Royce's sword splitered like a tree struck by lightning. Given that the lightning makes blades look silvery-blue as well as white-blue, and the only other colour of lightning is purple, we can extend this to see a purple-and-silver motif within lightning as well (and, golly gosh, so many moon maiden clothes and accessories are silver paired with purple). And the Valyrian look - well its silvery hair and purple eyes. There are even lemurs in Essos with this colouring called "Little Valyrians". Notably, we only find purple lightning around House Dondarrion (a massive LB/AA metaphor), R'hllorist magicians (Moqorro) and Valyrian looks (so dragonlords). I would suggest that this purple-and-silver colour pairing is therefore something to do with fire-transformed iciness.
  14. It's not just grey-green: we also have the (scarlet) red and black of the waves of night and moon blood, and the frequent pairings of white and blue (or occasionally silver and/or purple respectively). I think these correspond roughly to "types" of magic (for want of a better word): earth, fire and ice respectively. The duality in each of them reflects the same duality you've outlined in your OP: benevolence and treachery, creation and destruction, life and death. So if grey is associated with the latter aspect of this duality... welp, you've got yourself some evil Ironborns. As a slight aside, I think this may explain why green fire is so treacherous in book: it's an unatural perversion of the natural order, the green of earth associating itself with fire and flame.
  15. Great work I've been analysing the symbolism from a literary imagery perspective, rather than a mythological astronomy one (because I don't know world myth), and have come across the exact same phenomenon. Briefly, Martin's use of the word "fire" roughly corresponds to the benevolent sun/fire god, and "flame" roughly corresponds to the treacherous/destructive one. Look forward to reading more