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  1. The only way Robert could end up on the IT was a- To go against centuries of Baratheon loyalty to the Targs. A loyalty which the Baratheon were well compensated for (LP of the stormlands, the regular Targ princess in marriage etc) b- to lead a fiercely loyal Targ region whose surrounded by Targ loyalists to rebellion. The risks of ending up dead are staggeringly high c- to become an usurper and probably a kinslayer (Aerys was Robert's cousin) That's a big price to pay especially for a role Robert never really wanted and was certainly not suited for. Robert rebelled only when he had no choice (ie Aerys asked for his head). He was many things but certainly not a conspirator.
  2. I don’t think that Lyanna was kidnapped. But let’s toy with that idea for a moment. What was a 15 year old Lady of Winterfell doing so close to Harrenhal? How did the crown prince knew that Lyanna was so close to the Harrenhal to ‘kidnap’ her and why was the girl riding there without military escort? If there was indeed a military escort how come no one got hurt or even killed? Sure the crown prince was a decent swordsman and the sword of the morning was way better than most swordsmen in the North but surely Lyanna’s military escort would try to defend their lady. So everything points that Lyanna went to Rhaegar out of her own will. That might explain why she was close to Harrenhal at a time when he was there and why no one got hurt/killed. However it doesn’t solve most questions a- How the hell could a 15 year old teleport herself from Winterfell to Harrenhal without her father knowing? b- Why no one tried or was able to track her down? c- How could a 15 year old co-ordinate such a plan with someone who lives at the other side of the world without the Warden of the North knowing what was going on? However lets ignore all of that. Lets assume that this 15 year old could evade all trackers in the North and the Riverlands and was so elusive to take all the Lords from Winterfell to Harrenhal as fools only to end up safely inside Rhaegar’s arms. How come Rickard didn’t call the banners after he learnt the truth? If the North-Riverlands-Vale-Stormlands were planning a great revolt then what better excuse to do it then this? Rickard and Robert could send ravens to Aerys demanding that his boy would release his daughter/gf. If he refuse to do that then the Starks/Baratheons would have the cassus beli needed to rebel, dragging all Lords of good faith with them. Most lords are knights, sworn to protect the innocent. What more innocent than a 15 year old girl who was stripped from her loving father against her will to serve as the crown prince sex object? Even if Lyanna had to come out debating that its not the case no one would believe it. The poor thing would be just too ‘traumatised’ from such ordeal to be thinking straight, Instead Rickard opted to remain quiet in Winterfell only to ride to KL with a token force after his own son was accused of a very serious crime. Meanwhile the emotionally driven and madly in love Robert remaining in the Vale sipping wine with his best mate Ned. That’s not the reaction that a father and a bf would have towards their daughter/gf kidnapper isn’t it? Such under reaction contrasts greatly with Aery’s overreaction. Sure Brandon did a stupid thing but why would anyone try to massacre his entire clan? Rebellions were quite common in Westeros. When that occurred, houses would be forced to bend the knee and probably stripped off of a lordship or two as punishment. Yet Aerys wanted most Stark heads and that simply because Brandon challenged the crown prince for a fight. Or was there more to it? By rebelling to Aerys, Robert would have become an usurper and probably a kinslayer for a role he didn’t even wanted. That's too much of an ask for the man whose hobby was to drink and whore. On the other hand Rhaegar was groomed for command and made it quite obvious to Jamie that he was planning to usurp the throne. You can’t really blame the man. His mother was being sexually abused and his life + that of his wife and his children were in danger. The burden of being an usurper and a kinslayer was quite a small price to pay for that.
  3. If that was the case then he would called the banners the exact moment Lyanna was kidnapped. However he didn't. He refrained from calling the banners despite his son got arrested on the accusations of treason. Instead he went to KL to sort things up even though the Targs had his daughter kidnapped and his son arrested. FFS the man didn't even bother to recall Ned from the Vale which means that the Stark dynasty rested mostly in foreign hands. Why was he so confident of making it out of that place alive? Considering that Aerys had solid ground on accusing Brandon of treason + there's no way Rickard could win a trial by combat against that KG, the only answer is that Rickard was banking on an extremely powerful and influential man in the Targ ranks to bail him out. Which makes you wonder who could that man be? The Starks aren't renowned for their friends in the South and no one would dare challenging the king's judgement. Unless of course, the person in question happens to be the crown prince. Also there is no chance Lyanna could vanish from Winterfell, travel across the entire north + the Riverlands and reach Harrenhal only to find Rhaegar waiting without her dad knowing what was going on.
  4. We all know the drill. a- The relationship between Aerys and Tywin deteriorate b- Aerys ends up a hostage at Duskendale c- Tywin leads the army to Duskendale with the plan to storm the city d- Some oppose such plan. Tywin responds to them by endorsing Rhaegar as a better king to Aerys e- Selmy goes full Rambo and rescues Aerys f- After being restored as king, Aerys ruins Tywin’s chance to see his daughter to Rhaegar and the crown prince chance of marrying into a powerful ally whose capable to lead an army against him (ie the Lannisters) g- Aerys shows hostility towards Rhaegar’s children while he grows obsessed about Viserys. h- A luxurious tournament is held in Harrenhal that eclipse the one held by Tywin for Visery’s birthday i- Varys warns Aerys that this tournament is a façade to a potential coup against him j- The mad king gatecrashes Harrenhal by going there in person. k- Rhaegar meets Lyanna for the first time at the tourney of Harrenhal l- he crowns her queen of beauty m- Brandon gets pissed off but she laughs off at the incident n- After some time Lyanna is kidnapped by Rhaegar o- A furious Brandon go to KL to challenge the crown prince to a duel p- Aerys have him arrested and orders Rickard to come to KL to answer for his son’s crime q- Both are brutally executed r- Aerys orders Jon Arryn to execute Ned and Robert s- The whole charade begins. At first value the whole timeline makes sense. - Tywin’s and Aerys relationship deteriorate. - At Duskendale Tywin drags Rhaegar (whether intentionally or not we’ll never know) into his feud. - Aerys defies logic by coming out of this alive. He tries to weaken the crown prince whom he feels he (ie Rhaegar) tried to usurp his throne by having him killed. - Rhaegar gambles everything on Harrenhal, a plan that backfired spectacularly But then the entire sequence of events starts becoming sketchy - The kidnap doesn’t make sense. At that point Rhaegar had enough enemies on his own not to add the North (and possibly the Riverlands to it). - Rickard’s reaction doesn’t make sense either. His daughter is kidnapped by the crown prince, his son is arrested for treason by his father and yet…Rickard sees fit to go to KL without a proper army at his back. He doesn’t even bother calling Ned to Winterfell. - Aerys reaction doesn’t make sense either. Brandon might have crossed the line here by going to KL and challenge the crown prince to a duel. But does that translate in the extermination of most of the Stark family? (Rickard, Brandon and Ned). Worst things had happened before with houses actually raising armies against the ruling family. They all got away with far less than that. After all Aerys treacherous son had just kidnapped his first cousin’s fiancée. The Starks were for Aerys potential allies in this whole charade. Rhaegar’s mess up + Brandon’s arrest provided the mad king with the idea pretext to send Rhaegar to the wall + an army to do that dirty work. I’ve been thinking about Aerys overreaction and Rickard’s under reaction for quite some time. Then a slight detail popped out and which has the potential of changing everything. Lyanna’s second meeting with Rhaegar 10 leagues away from Harrenhal happened a year later. That opens a whole can of worms - How did Rhaegar and Lyanna manage to keep contact throughout that period of time? - How was a 15 year old lady able to slip from her father’s home, travel for days and miles without getting spotted only to reach Harrenhal where she conveniently found Rhaegar waiting for her? The former question might partly answer the latter. The only effective way of long distance communication AWOIF has is by ravens. The Maesters take care of that, and at the time the Maester at Wintefell was Walys. Walys was accused by Barbrey of being the man who orchestrated Rickard’s Southern ambitions. Could it be the case that Lyanna was able to go South, without being detected and without any trackers being sent to get her back was…..because Rickard wanted this thing to happen. So here is what I think - Rickard arrange a marriage between Robert and Lyanna - Rickard accepts Rhaegar’s invitation to Harrenhal. A new world to come is at the doors with plenty of opportunities to those wise enough to take them. - Rhaegar makes it pretty obvious that he likes Lyanna. Rickard notices that a potentially better union could be made up between the two - Lyanna spills the beans to her father. She’s unhappy with her marriage with Robert - Rickard is between a rock and a hard place. On one hand he doesn’t want to force Lyanna into a marriage she doesn’t want and is salivating at the prospect of having his own daughter close to the future king of Westeros. On the other hand Rickard can’t break his promise to Robert (we all know thanks to Robb that this is a no no). - Therefore plan B is set to motion. Lyanna ‘escapes’ with Rhaegar something Rickard has no control upon. The girl will lay low for a couple of months with Rhaegar with Rickard not causing too much havoc about it. Once pregnant she will return to the Riverlands confessing that everything was consensual and that she’s now pregnant with Rhaegar’s child. That would force Robert (and not Rickard) to call off the wedding. Please note that consensual sex among adult is not a crime even among nobility. Aegon the unworthy had plenty of paramours of noble descent + LF was able to come out of Riverrun alive despite having sex with Lysa Tully. - Once Rhaegar is able to free Elia and her children from KL he would call the banners against his father. The North, the Riverlands, Dorne and possibly the Vale would join the cause. Jon Arryn would keep Robert out of the loop, arresting him if he ever finds out what was going on. With Robert hostage, the Stormlands would add to the list of neutrals (which include the Westerlands and the IR). That means that the war would be between the 4 regions I mentioned and the Reach + the Crownlands. Surely the former must be considered favourites to win. Considering Rickard’s sons inability to comprehend the grey areas of diplomacy, the old wolf thought better not to involve his two sons in such plot. That proved costly as Brandon genuinely believed that the rumours of Lyanna’s kidnap were true and against all common sense went to KL to confront Rhaegar. Even at that point Rickard didn’t thought that he had anything to worry about. Surely the crown prince would step in to make sure that his future son’s uncle won’t die especially since the Starks were a centerpiece of Rhaegar’s ascend to power. Unfortunately the old wolf underestimated Aerys Intel on the matter. Brandon might have been convincing but Aerys refused to believe that Lyanna was able to teleport from Winterfell to Harrenhal with no military escort only to end up kidnapped by his treacherous son. It was evident that the Starks were cooking a plan with Rhaegar which explains why Aerys went so tough against them.
  5. Its all conspiracy theory of course and GRRM might have made a blunder on this. However I find it very very difficult to believe that a 15 year old girl will flee Winterfell, travel alone for miles and miles of land administered by so many lords, then enter the Riverlands and make her way to Harrenhal without being spotted. Her father would surely notice her not being around and would order his best trackers to find his daughters. The North would go into full red alert making it impossible for a lonely noble girl to past through that layers of security without being spotted. We have proof to that later in the books. Cat Tully was older then her, she wasn't being searched and knew the South much more then the she wolf did and yet she was spotted twice, first when entering KL and then in the inn at the crossroads. Arya was protected by way better people then Lyanna was (who went solo) but ended up first captured by Lannister men and then by Sandor Clegane. Not to forget that the Riverlands were pro Stark. There was much bigger chance for good old Hoster or one of his Lords to find Lyanna and send her packing back to Winterfell then for Rhaegar to spot her and take her to Dorne. Yet, Lyanna was lucky/unlucky enough to be spotted by Rhaegar first who happened to be travelling there alongside 2 KG. Considering the ridiculously long distance between KL and Winterfell its pretty obvious that Lyanna had help. Winterfell was pretty isolated so a Southern messenger would be spotted miles away especially if he dares speaking with Rickard's kid. We must presume that the two 'lovebirds' communicated through ravens. We all know who takes of that and how much influence the old maester had on Rickard. Considering that a- the North didn't go to full lock down when Lyanna vanished b- Lyanna managed to cover so many miles without being spotted c- Her timing was impeccable (Rhaegar seem to be waiting for her) d- Rickard was quite nonchalant about Lyanna's kidnap Then we can presume that he knew exactly what was going on and was quite happy about it. Regarding Brandon....well, the boy was hardly the brightest person around and at the time he was very busy playing bf and gf with Barbrey and most possibly half a dozen other girls. So its possibly that Rickard decided to keep him in the dark on that one (which explains why the wild wolf went to KL and made a fool of himself). Same thing can be said about the so much righteous Ned who was tucked in the Vale at close proximity to Robert B. So lets make a list of events removing Brandon's arrest out of the equation - Aerys insults Tywin enough for the old lion to resign from HOTK and retire in CR - Jon A take Ned and Robert as wards - Rickard accepts Brandon's bethonal to Cat and Lyanna's bethonal to Robert - Rhaegar make preparations for a coup. Meeting place Harrenhal - Ashara Dayne play Ned like a flute. - Aerys gatecrashes the meeting. Rhaegar crowns Lyanna queen of beauty - A year later Lyanna teleports herself in front of Harrenhal. Rhaegar flees to Dorne with her - Rhaegar returns to the Riverlands with Lyanna and a dragon/wolf pup at her breast. Hoster (whose now family since his daughter is married to Rickard's son) act as an intermediary between the wolf and the crown prince. Sir Arthur offer a marriage between Ashara and Ned as a sweetener. Rickard has 'no choice' but to accept their union - The Martells play the victim card and push Aerys to do something. The mad king give more power to Lewyn Martell, thinking that they are at his side. Instead Leywn Martell uses such power to make Elia and her children escape to Dorne. - Rhaegar call the banners. The North, the Riverlands and Dorne answer his call. Aerys orders Ned's execution dragging the Vale into war. Jon A arrest Robert forcing the Stormlands to stay neutral - Surrounded by Dorne in the South, the Riverlands in the North and the Vale at the east, Mace decides not to charge into battle. Aerys is dethroned and Rhaegar takes his place. - Rhaegar revert the rules of marriage. He marries Lyanna who becomes queen at par to Elia and Jon becomes third in line to the throne. Unfortunately an ignorant Brandon gatecrashed everything and as you said, Rickard ended up underestimating Aerys (who, in my opinion, saw through this whole charade)
  6. pls read my previous post
  7. If we rely solely on the timeline then the risk was relatively small. No one called the bannermen because of it. Rickard remained in Winterfell and Robert remained at the Vale. The only person who overreacted was the ‘wild’ wolf. Even then, his backup was relatively small which clearly suggest that his actions weren’t supported by the big houses. The 4 big houses remained loyal throughout Brandon’s arrest and Rickard and Brandon’s execution. They only rebelled when given no choice but to rebel (Aerys couldn’t expect Jon A to break guest rights and he certainly couldn’t expect Ned and Bob to willingly remove their heads from their necks) and even then the Tullys needed ‘persuasion’ and 3 of the 4 houses involved found local opposition. There again, I’m basing my argument on the timeline. We know nothing about what was going behind the scenes and we’ll certainly wouldn’t be able to know the truth considering that all major players are now dead (Jon A, Robert B, Aerys, Rhaegar, Hoster T, Lyanna, Rickard, Brandon and Ned S) While your argument is extremely relevant I do think that it has 1 weakspot. You’re basing the risk around Rhaegar’s actions with little to no care about Rhaegar’s inaction. Aerys was a paranoid and abusive man who treated both Tywin and Rhaella like rubbish. After Duskendale, Rhaegar became his target and Aerys took every opportunity to weaken him and/or provoke him while glorifying Viserys, which, of course, was bad news for Rhaegar. Prior to Lyanna’s ‘kidnap’ Rhaegar was forced into a marriage that automatically stripped him from his biggest ally. His children were being insulted in court, his younger brother was being glorified by Aerys and Elia was fast transitioning from future queen to a glorified hostage. Harrenhal was Rhaegar’s only chance of building up enough allies to be able to dethrone Aerys yet it backfired spectacularly. If Aerys could go in such extent to punish his son merely because he accepted such endorsement then we can only imagine how he would act now, that he’s got a certain reassurance about Rhaegar’s defiance. TBF I find Lyanna’s and Rhaegar’s reunion fishy. At the beginning of GOT we see Robert travelling from KL to Winterfell. Robert is a seasoned warrior who’s not particularly obsessed about his own safety (ie he goes hunting for boars while drunk). Yet the man made sure to take a group 300 men strong which included the Hound and Jamie Lannister.Yet we’re made to believe that Lyanna can suddenly pop in near Harrenhal with no military escort and with her father not knowing where the hell she is. Now I acknowledge that Robert was king that he was taking his family with him and that Harrenhal is closer to Winterfell than KL is. However I still struggle to believe how Lyanna could vanish from Winterfell, leave the North, pass through Riverlands territory and meet the crown prince without Rickard being able to track her down. The fact that Lyanna happened to be close to Harrenhal when Rhaegar was there is quite amazing too. It’s evident that the two had planned this before. The answer is how? Winterfell is miles away from KL and the only viable way of communication between the two would be through ravens. Surely Maester Walys would have told Rickard of Lyanna’s silly plot. Unless of course, Walys (whose accused by Barbrey to be the centrepiece of Rickard’s southern ambition plan) knew about it and was quite happy with the plan. Maybe a crown prince was a better option for Rickard’s Southern ambitions then the LP of the smallest and most loyal region in Westeros? Of course Rickard the honourable couldnt afford being portrayed as a man who broke a bethronal simply because there's a better offer on the table. That's unacceptable. However what happens if lets say Lyanna find herself near Harrenhal and the girl ends up fleeing with Rhaegar out of her own free will? Surely that cant be attributed to Rickard. That would explain why Rickard unlike his ignorant son remained so calm about Lyanna’s abduction. It also explains why Rickard was so confident that Aerys would release his boy (they were kind of family now) and why the mad king went so tough against the Starks (he's mad not stupid).
  8. Not really. In the medieval time women were considered as an extra mouth to feed. Hence why they were married relatively early. Their parents weren't extensively fussy whom they marry as long as they left the nest. In my country there's a nursery ryhme about a knight and a father negotiating a marriage deal. Its quite creepy considering that most knights in my country were vowed to celebacy. TBF mothering bastards from a knight sworn for celebacy wasn't a bad thing in a society were poverty was rife. I once visited a palace built for one of these ladies. Its a 6 bedroom palace, in a prime location (for the time) and it was surrounded by fields who could easily feed a big family. You're not the only one who studied medieval history What repercussions exactly? Sex between consenting adults is not a crime in GOT. Brandon had sex with Barbrey, Aegon the unworthy had a horde of women of noble descend as paramours, Robert had sex with a Florent girl while half of her clan was present and even LF was able to go in Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck. Robert's rebellion started not because of Rhaegar. In matter of fact Rhaegar had nothing to do with it. It started because Aerys demanded that Jon Arryn break guest rights by executing 2 innocent wards. As good old Winston Churchill said "History is written by the victors". That term is more relevant the more you go back in time, mainly because the media was poorly developed and often controlled by the state. Apart from Robert there is nothing that suggest that Lyanna was kidnapped. If she was then rest assured that history would have remembered him far less kindly then it did. Instead, there's barely any bad word said about him and that include Ned who lost half of his family in that mess. That's true. There again we need to take things into context. The tourney of Harrenhal was meant to be an opportunity for Rhaegar to make enough allies to topple the king. That plan backfired spectacularly. Rhaegar might well have been a wanted man at that point. It was within Rhaegar's interest to lay low and get Lyanna pregnant before returning to public office. Once it was confirmed that Lyanna went with Rhaegar out of her own free will, then the Starks would have no choice but to accept the new circumstances handled to them, same as the Brackens and the Blackwells did before them. Lyanna's future would be tied to Jon's and Jon's future will be tied to that of his father. That's the reason why Ned couldn't spill the beans about JS origins to his best friend. What makes you think that she was a prisoner in the first place? Unlike Elia who was a mere pawn in the mad king's hand, Lyanna was far away from war and surrounded by KG sworn to protect her. Sir Arthur Dayne was possibly the most honourable men in all Westeros (at par with Selmy). I bet Elia would have swapped her position with Lyanna at any time.
  9. The Reach is an upgrade version of the Riverlands with the Tyrells being the upgrade version of the Tullys Strengths a- They can raise up around 60k-80k army as opposed to 40k that can be raised by the Riverlands b- They have more fertile lands when compared to the Riverlands (and all other regions) c- The Tyrells have a better relationship with their bannermen. Similarly to the Tullys they understand the value of marital alliances, however, unlike the Tullys they did their homework and can therefore raise a big army in record time However they do share the Riverland’s weaknesses a- The Tyrells were never kings. That means that they lack the undivided loyalty of their bannermen that other houses like House Arryn or House Lannister have b- They have too many borders c- They lack the natural defences regions like the Vale and the North has d- Their wealth isn’t hidden underground like the Lannisters. Battles and crops rarely mix well together. That may have been the reason why the Tyrells were so ineffective during Robert’s rebellion. Imagine what would happen if the combined army of the Vale, the North, the Riverlands and the Stormlands decided to pitch their battle camp on the Reach fertile lands. The war of 5 kings was perfect for them. Early in the game they were able to secure 2 of their 5 borders (Dorne remained neutral). With Tywin eager to stop the Northern co-alition from organizing themselves, the other 2 regions (the Crownlands and the Westerlands) ended up invading the last remaining hostile region (the Riverlands), weakening it further. Things could have gone different though. If Ned survived and was swayed to bend the knee in exchange of a pardon then Tywin would stay in the Riverlands long enough until Edmure bends the knee. The war would then shift in the Reach who would be invaded from multiple fronts (Crownlands, Westerlands and possibly Riverlands and IR) causing mayhem. Many Lords would have to choose between remaining loyal to the former Gardener’s stewards and safeguarding their fields. We all know how persuasive Tywin can be.
  10. Yes and no. You're right medieval girls grew faster then modern girls. However, we're talking here about the Starks, specifically Rickard's children (ie the man who produced Brandon 'I challenge the crown prince in his own house' Stark and Ned 'if I spill the beans to Cersei she will just flee to Essos' Stark). We can safely presume that they aren't exactly the apex of diplomacy and strategic thinking. We know so little of Lyanna so we can't really answer to that can we? What we know is that Rhaegar's music made Lyanna cry, which suggest that the crown prince could raise some deep emotions in the girl. We also know that Rhaegar was hot, really really hot + she wasn't happy in marrying Robert. The fact that Ned never said anything against Rhaegar kind of shows that the attraction was mutual. That's a solid possibility, although, tbf, I cant see Rhaegar forcing himself into Lyanna. There's nothing that suggest that he was that type of man. If he did force himself on her then surely Ned would be much more judgemental when discussing about him, which is not the case. As said before, consensual sex between two adults (and the medieval world women became adults when they have their P) is hardly a crime. Both Brandon and Robert had sex with women of noble birth who weren't their wives. The bloodraven was himself a bastard while LF was able to go to Riverrun, have sex with Lysa and leave with his head still attached to his neck. No one ever called the banners for that. In matter of fact Robert was forced to embelish this charade into Lyanna's kidnap. In reality he has no proof to back that. Also note that the one who caused the rebellion was Aerys not Rhaegar. The Vale, North, Stormlands and the Riverlands remained loyal despite a- Lyanna's kidnap b- Brandon's arrest c- Rickard's and Brandon's execution Even then a substantial amount of houses either took Aerys side or stayed neutral. The Tullys remained neutral up until they convinced the Starks and the Arryn to marry their girls. They only rebelled when Jon Arryn was expected to break guest rights and execute 2 innocent warden/LPs. That is what caused the war not Rhaegar
  11. @Pikachu101 I agree that she was very immature especially if she's got a similar character to Arya (whom we know tend to hit first and think later). Also, considering Rickard's other offspring (Brandon 'I go in KL alone and challenge the crown prince' Stark and Ned 'I spill the beans to Cersei and expect her to just flee') I doubt that the old man had spent years teaching the complexity of diplomacy either. Hmm....I wouldn't really use modern mentality to judge medieval morality. People used to marry very early those days and with mortality being set so high, no one really bothered about childbirth. I agree, there was a certain low level of manipulation in place. Its very possible that Rhaegar courted Lyanna mainly not because he liked her but because of her father's army. However the manipulation could have been two way. Its very possible that Lyanna saw Rhaegar as her only way out from Robert's marriage. That's the trouble of raising children with a mindset that the whole world owes them everything only to then end up paring them like some sort of cattle. Lyanna had problems accepting that same as Cersei, Lysa, Robert, Robb and possibly Rhaegar TBF though neither Rhaegar nor Lyanna expected the disaster that would happen afterwards. What Rhaegar-Lyanna did was inconvenient but it wasnt a crime. Brandon Stark was doing the same with Barbrey and Robert would do the same with the Florent girl. Also note that unless a- the Lord/Prince/King was an Ahole (ex Roose) b- his wife happens to be very very insecure (Ex Cersei or Cat) Then bastards can carve a good life for themselves. Brandon Snow and the bloodraven are two of many examples to that. I think that JS would be way better off if Robert's rebellion never started in the first. Actually Lyanna got a far better treatment than Elia and her children. I'd rather spend my life at the tower of joy with some of the finest KGs to protecting me then in KL as pawn to Aerys and later on as an obstacle for Tywin and his plans.
  12. @YOVMO The respect is pretty mutual mate. Regarding Lyanna. Well we need to take 3 things in consideration here a- Lyanna was around 16 at the time. That's hardly the peak of maturity. b- Rhaegar was hot and he was incredibly persuasive. Cersei once asked "Had any man ever been so beautiful?". Tywin whose always been composed and stirred away from falling into Aerys many provocations threw caution in the wind to endorse the man while Selmy absolutely adored him. If this man could raise such strong emotions in Tywin and in a sour and mature Cersei then imagine what he could do to a 16 year old Stark girl who probably barely ever left the North (the same north whose 'poetry' produced the likes of Roose, Ramsey, Brandon, Greatjon Umber and Ned) c- We know little about Lyanna however, Ned gives us a great insight on that when he likened her with Arya. That's great because we know a hell of a lot about Arya Stark. She's stubborn, strong willed and a rebel. Can you imagine how Arya would react if she's married off like cattle without Ned even bother asking for her consent? So those are the three reasons why I believe Lyanna fled with Rhaegar. She was immature, Rhaegar was incredibly hot and persuasive + she's was being forced into a marriage no one bothered asking her opinion (let alone acting on it) about. There's actually a 4th thing ie she had no idea the big mess she would leave behind. I mean if you have a mad king as a father you wouldn't introduce yourself to a potential girl you want to go out with, with that
  13. Mace Tyrell is married to a Hightower and his mother is a Redywne. He is a decent Lord who raised 4 magnificent kids. He’s not particularly bright but his heir is and all Tyrells are kind by nature. Why on earth would Leyton turn against his own daughter and his grandson’s interest? In my opinion, the Lannister will soon show their true colours by turning against the Tyrells and in favour of the Greyjoys. It makes sense to them. The Lannister-Tyrell relations are strained at best and we all know whose got the biggest army out of the two. Chaos favours the Lannisters at this point. The more bickering there is, the more time they have to get their crap together. Kevan needs replacement, the crownlands and the Westerlands need to get organized and with Cersei in loggerheads with Margaery, the Tyrells need to be dealt with. I don’t trust the Tarly’s though. Lord Tarly has been living in Mace’s incompetent shadow for too much time. I doubt he appreciated Mace stealing the shine at Ashford. His wife Melessa is probably upset to see her own family being evicted from Brightwater’s keep to make space for Garlan. The Florents have an equal claim to the Reach as the Tyrells and this land grab adds insult to injury. Randyll might have expected Mace to give the keep to his own wife (Melessa had remained loyal + Randyll had served the Reach well) so this might have been a real kick at the teeth. If the lions offer the Reach in exchange of his support then I bet he will consider it.
  14. A- Walder has proven himself as a person who got the tendency to bite more then he can chew. So I can’t think of him refusing that offer. Being LP and having a bigger stretch of land under his domain would mean he can seal more advantageous alliances through marriages. Also the Freys are married into the Lannister family so they will get support if they need it. Considering that the North can easily strip him from his lands then I guess it would be within Walder’s interest to turn Moat Cailin into a heap of stones. Which means, that the biggest chokepoint in Westerosi history will be gone forever B- I can understand your point of view regarding the Greatjoys. However, I don’t share that opinion. The Greatjoys rule an arid land which is poor in terms of natural resources. The IR can be devastating at sea but on land they are relatively weak. If the king decides to give them lands and titles on the mainland then their standard of living will definitely improve. However, they will be pressured to stay in line for the simple reason that these lands can easily be stripped away from them. Its basically what happened to Robb a generation later. He became the king of the North and the Riverlands which meant that his domain grew significantly. There again, such obligation made him weaker as he was trapped South to defend his new lands C- The Lannisters and the Tyrells would grow significantly strong but same can be said about the Targs. Viserys Targeryan would be appointed LP of the Stormlands. He will marry Cersei which means the Lannisters will be bound by blood to protect him. Rhaegar on the other hand will one day inherit the Crownlands. He’s married to Elia Martell and his son will one day marry Margaery Tyrell (she isn’t born yet but we all know that Ms Tyrell’s pregnancy will end up with a girl). The king will also keep Lyanna as ‘guest’ which means that Ned will stay in line. Not to forget the Freys, the Greatjoys and the Royces who would see their lands increase under Aerys and would therefore be extremely grateful towards their king.
  15. He gatecrashed Stannis wedding FCS Robert is always drunk. However the only time we know he gatecrashed an event in that way was Stannis wedding. Also out of so many women attending the wedding he ends up sleeping with someone with a similar standing to Stannis's wife (A Florent from the minor branch). Isn't that an unfortunate co-incidence?