devilish

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  1. How not to handle a meeting with Tywin.

    Ah so you want to feck it up my apologies. I start by asking Tywin whether the Lannister delegate everything to others considering that Robert fought his war against the Greyjoys and Walder solved his problems when the 13 year old gave him a spanking . I'd ask him whether he was too much of a coward to sort the problem himself. Before he answers I would tell him that it was a silly question to ask. After all most Lannisters did the same in totally unrelated issues. Tywin needed Aerys to step into action to keep Joanna entertained. Cersei gangbanged half KL because Robert wouldn't touch her and her brother's performance were utterly pathetic and everyone know that Jeyne used to bang the Reynes. His father couldn't even find a decent woman after that and had to pay his son's wet nurse to keep him warm in bed. I would then high five Jamie using both hands and then I'll congrate Tyrion for passing chlamydia to his daddy through Shae. The imp is truly a chip of the old block since he also delegated the grievances to others.
  2. How not to handle a meeting with Tywin.

    Tywin: "You haven't been paying enough taxes and as you know the Lannisters always make sure that you pay your debts" Devilish: "Its Tyrion's fault" Tywin: "What?" Devilish panicking. "Its Tyrion fault, he took erm the money I gave him and spent it on a whore" Tyrion: "Dad You can't seriously consider believing him" Devilish. "Ask Cersei. She's the most beautiful and smartest woman in Westeros. Its a shame she's a Lady because she would be the perfect king of Westeros. She won't lie am I right?" Tyrion "He's lying and you know it sis. If you lie too then you'll be damaging the Lannister family and" Cersei "Devilish is right." Tywin "whose the whore?" Devilish points his finger to a random girl Tywin "Kevan call the banners, every single soldier will now rape her, Tyrion will be last" Devilish "Isn't that a bit too eccessive" Tywin "Hmm actually send her to my chambers first, then we do the raping afterwards and finally she'll end up Gregor Clegane's toy" Devilish "erm, wait, I was lying. Here's the money" Tyrion "See dad, he was lying, leave the girl alone" Tywin "You like the girl don't you?" Tyrion "well she's a human being. I don't want her hurt" Tywin "Good, Kevan, proceed with the plan and if she stays alive, send her to Ramsey Bolton!
  3. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    The concept of family is mainly tackled in the first book. The rest is mostly about war, betrayals etc. GOT focuses mostly on the Starks family which was not a conventional noble family in Westeros. a- They couldn’t care less about Westerosi politics. No LP, King or Warden was as detached from KL as they did. b- Ned and Cat was in a loving relationship. Most noble marriages in Westeros were unhappy and often bound together by duty or political reasons. Some even bordered to abuse (Walder F marriages or Ramsey’s marriage to Fake Arya) c- GOT was set at a time of peace. In times of war, Ned would be leading his troops to battle and not playing the perfect father role in Winterfell If you take the Starks aside, then you have a more realistic picture of an early medieval noble family setup. The mother would be the mistress of the house, dictating things often under strict supervision (nobles were in constant fear of being cuckolded) by the liege lord family members (often the mum). The Lord would be distant, focusing mostly on administrating the land, setting alliances and fighting for his king. Children would be raised mostly by servants (some were nothing more than glorified nannies but there would also be teachers and military trainers around the kids) with the supervision from the mother. That extra layer was necessary as the mentality of the day was that women were simply too mentally fragile and emotional to raise children on their own especially sons who were expected to be tough. Etiquette introduced later in time changed the landscape of how royal families raised their children adding layers of complexity and dictating every step and action they made. However the mentality I described before still survives in some shape and form among common people living in rural areas in the South Mediterranean countries. I have a former neighbour who married a Sicilian farmer and she told me how her life is controlled by her mother in law who is the matriarch of the family. For example she comes and pick her and her other daughters in law out to do shopping together and she dictates how the children are raised. When she returns to our country, her mother in law would call her mother to check her out.
  4. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    Exactly Cersei was a mentality disturbed girl who started performing sexual acts on her twin brother long before her mother died, Tyrion was born, Aerys rejected her to be his son's queen and Robert married her and called her Lyanna instead. She ruined every dynasty she touched starting first with the Lannisters (ie by convincing Jamie to become KG) to then set her sight on the Baratheon dynasty. The fact that Robert wasn't a lousy father and husband didn't help. However you can't blame Robert for her being so destructive especially since medieval kings tend not to be the perfect husbands and fathers the world has ever seen. Medieval kings barely had any contact with their children until they were of age and it was very common to have lovers at the side. These courtesians were often employed as the queen's handmaidens (a job that allowed them close contact with the king) to avoid scandal.
  5. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    The rigid system was thrown out of the window the day Robert became King. He became king ahead of Viserys Targeryan who was innocent of his father/brother crimes and had a much bigger claim to the throne than Robert did. Robert knew that by crowning himself king, he would change the rules turning succession into a popularity contest. That is the reason why he married the Lannister harpie and that is why he made the effort to go in the Northern wasteland Ned called home to convince the warden of the North to marry Joffrey to Sansa. No Targeryan king had ever bothered to do such a thing. The closest to that was after the hour of the wolf, were a Targ princess was promised by King Aegon III to marry a Stark. That promised was never fulfilled.
  6. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    Cersei is the single most destructive force in KL since Aerys was king. Her constant mess ups and her inability to be a good mother costed the war, Ned’s head, Joffrey’s and Tywin’s life and will probably cost the alliance with the Tyrells. Robert was a lousy husband and father, in line to what Lyanna predicted (ie the first part not the second part). However he shouldn’t be used as the reason why Jamie-Cersei ended up together. The twins were already ‘pretty close’ in CR, way before Cersei married Robert or Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion.
  7. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    @Darkstream A-Please read it when you’ve got time. I am aware that its ridiculously long so I am more than willing to wait. B-I am a big fan of Roman and medieval history and politics. I read countless books about it so I know a thing or two about it. The king engaged himself to a taxing trip North to meet his loyal subject and to offer him the most prestigious administrative role in all Westeros. He also took his entire family with him and offered Ned to marry his daughter to the crown prince. There’s no way Ned could have said no to both. He might have avoided the HODK role but Robert would return to KL with a Stark who got Tully blood and therefore Arryn blood. That was exactly what Robert came for. If KL is under siege, than Ned’s daughter, Hoster’s grand daughter and Robin’s cousin would have been in danger. These 3 houses are bound by blood to defend her. C- I never said that Robert was a genius. In matter of fact, I stated multiple times that he couldn’t understand women and he was horrible in economics. The former saddled him with 3 illegitimate children. What I said that Robert was quite decent in diplomatic relations and that can be seen through many decisions taken throughout the rebellion and his reign. Its remarkable how, the Lord Paramount of the smallest region in Westeros ended up being King. Ps: May I remind you that if Stannis didn’t resorted to black magic then probably we would still have a Baratheon king sitting on the IT by now. That would never had happened if Robert didn’t favoured Renly over Stannis. The latter was foolish enough to marry a Florent whose got an equal claim to the Reach as the Tyrells. There’s no way the Tyrell and therefore the Reach as a whole would support a Florent queen especially since they nearly starved her husband, the king to death.
  8. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    Please read it when you’ve got time. I am aware that its ridiculously long so I am more than willing to wait. I never said that Robert was a genius. In matter of fact, I stated multiple times that he couldn’t understand women and he was horrible in economics. The former saddled him with 3 illegitimate children. What I said that Robert was quite decent in diplomatic relations and that can be seen through many decisions taken throughout the rebellion and his reign. Its remarkable how, the Lord Paramount of the smallest region in Westeros ended up being King. Ps: May I remind you that if Stannis didn’t resorted to black magic then probably we would still have a Baratheon king sitting on the IT by now. That would never had happened if Robert didn’t favoured Renly over Stannis. The latter was foolish enough to marry a Florent whose got an equal claim to the Reach as the Tyrells. There’s no way the Tyrell and therefore the Reach as a whole would support a Florent queen especially since they nearly starved her husband, the king to death.
  9. Most of Westeros confuse Mace’s love for family and his non committed attitude to war as stupidity. I don’t think it’s the case. By refusing to commit so many troops against Robert he made sure that the Tyrells were still a force to reckon with, irrespective on who ends up on the Iron Throne. It also might had forced Robert’s hand not to give Stannis (whose married to a Florent), the Stormlands when Joffrey came to age. Joffrey was Robert’s heir which means that he was entitled to dragonstone while Stannis had a bigger claim to the Stormlands then Renly did. Mace took the same approach during the war of 5 kings. He allowed the wolf and the lion to bleed one another and he only committed his troops when the benefits were high and the victory was certain (ie blackwater’s bay). He also made sure to keep his 2 important sons (ie Willas and Willas’ heir Garlan) out of it as much as possible. Garlan had a minor role in the battle of blackwater’s bay but I suspect its due to him needing leverage to claim Brightwater’s keep. At this stage, the Tyrells still hold a frightening big army and they haven’t burnt bridges with anyone (apart from Stannis who is as good as dead). That’s a luxury barely no one can afford. If Aegon wins then he will be reminded that the Tyrells fought for his father and they have a 60k army to back their claim. If Danny wins, they will remind her of the same + that Willas and his 60k army are available if only the queen marries him. The same offer can be extended to Sansa or Jon Snow (ie through Sansa) if by some miracle they are able to raise enough troops to unite the Vale, the Riverlands and the North under 1 banner. If Margaery ends up with child that things can get even better for them especially if the Targs win. Someone needs to rule CR and the choice to that is rather dire. Danny would have to choose between a- Tywin's yes man b- A kinslayer c- 2 kingslayers (Jamie killed Danny's father) Whose more appropriate for the role then someone whose got the Tyrells blood in him? The Tyrells had always been loyal to the Targs haven't they? If Danny arrives in Westeros with dragons and she agrees in marrying Willas Tyrell then she would be queen of Westeros in a forthnight. Garlan would then become Mace's heir and Margaery will be pardoned only to either marry Aegon and become Lady of the Stormlands (if she's not with child and Aegon bends the knee peacefully) or as regent to CR until her boy is at age.
  10. How not to handle a meeting with Tywin.

    blame it on Tyrion. It works every time
  11. Are you sure about that? So lets say that Kevan agrees that the king is mad and he needs to be removed. He agrees to bend the knee to Renly ideally if the latter spares his brother and allows him to remain Warden of the West. Do you think that Renly would say no to that? I much doubt it.
  12. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    I apologise for the long post Most of the information we have about Robert’s character traits come from Ned Stark and Stannis Baratheon, neither of them are good character readers. Their opinion enforces the concept which is highlighted by the Baratheon words ‘Ours is the Fury’. Robert is potrayed as a magnificent warrior, whose quick to let emotions to take hold on him and whose unstoppable when he does so. However, how much truth there is on that? Let’s start from the tourney at Harrenhal. Rhaegar wins the tournament and he crowns Lyanna as Lady of beauty instead of his wife. Brandon went bonkers about it and yet. Robert simply laughed it off. Soon afterwards Rhaegar kidnaps Lyanna causing a diplomatic incident of epic proportions. Brandon barges in KL with a group of people and yet one name is missing. Robert. Brandon is arrested, Rickard is summoned in KL and both are killed. Yet, even now, Robert doesn’t call his banners. He doesn’t even start the rebellion himself (Jon Arryn did) and he only joins the rebellion because Aerys specifically called for his head. Time and time again, the idea of an impulsive king is thrashed. Robert resist the urge to return to his ancestral home to relieve the siege, he forgives all those who fought him, he even send his own maester to save Selmy which was in my opinion, a great political move. Selmy’s reputation bordered to the legendary and having him at his side gave legitimacy to his cause. After the rebellion he pretty much continued the path of reason. He stopped obsessing about his so called revenge until the Targs became a threat (Danny marrying Khal Drogo), he married Cersei, he kept Jamie in the KG which improved his chances of one of his sons inheriting CR and he handled the Greyjoy rebellion brilliantly. An impulsive king would have smashed Balon’s head to the wall. Instead Robert took a page out of Roman elite diplomacy by taking Balon’s heir as ward and transforming him into a Westerosi Lord. His diplomacy skills were top notch even in GOT. By going to Winterfell, he honoured his friend who was basically rotting in the North (diplomacy speaking) and used those brownie points to convince Ned to take the hand of the king role and allow his daughter Sansa to marry his son. Sansa was probably the most powerful young woman in Westeros at that point. She was the Warden of the North’s daughter, the Warden of the East cousin and the LP of the Riverlands granddaughter. Her marriage to Joffrey (crown prince, the Warden of the West grandson and the LP of the Stormlands nephew) would secure peace throughout Westeros for years to come. Please note that he only goes to Winterfell when old Arryn died. Why? Until Jon Arryn was in KL, the three big houses in the North were obliged by blood to relieve a siege in KL. With Jon Arryn dead and Lysa at the Vale, there was no obligation to do so apart from the king’s command, which proved, time and time again, not as effective as it should be (Greyjoys and Lannisters remained neutral during Robert’s rebellion). Robert knew that if the Targs were able to somehow convince the GC, Dorne and the Reach to fight for them then he would need the Northern Coalition to bail him out. The Reach could easily stop a Lannister relief army while the combined forces of Dorne + GC could overwhelm Renly’s 20k troops. The Northern coalition was the deciding factor between a Targ king and a Baratheon king. Anyway, time and time again Robert showed great coolness and pragmatism in handling things. On one hand he refused to punish Jamie for assaulting Ned. On the other hand he refused to send an army to rescue the imp when he was kidnapped by Cat. By doing so, he avoided a war between two of the biggest houses in Westeros. So we can conclude that while Robert was a dunce in understanding women and finances, he was quite good in diplomacy. He certainly wasnt the impulsive short sighted oaf who engaged into petty arguments as described by many GOT Fans. Now let’s return to Stannis. Robert was not obliged to give his lands and titles to anybody, which means he could have left Renly and Stannis without any lands and totally dependent on him. That’s what common practice across all Westeros. Kevan Lannister was Tywin’s biggest ally and yet he was never given a Lordship. Some second sons end up with a worse deal. For example Benjen ended up joining the NW. In few words, Robert’s offer to Stannis was extremely generous, far more generous that the one offered by most LPs and Kings. So we can put this ‘Robert wanted to slight Stannis’ theory to sleep. Now let’s focus on the dates. House Baratheon of Dragonstone was formed in 284 AC. That’s quite significant as it was just 2 years after Robert’s rebellion started. Dragonstone was the Targs ancestral home and therefore it held great military and psychology importance. Any Targ, able to re-capture that island would have to be taken seriously. Therefore Robert needed somebody to trust there and whose experienced in resisting sieges and that someone couldn't be Renly who was 7 at the time. I also seriously doubt that Renly was appointed LP of the Stormlands at 7 years of age. It more realistic to think that he was appointed LP of the Stormlands when he was at age ie between 16-18. Sure Robert might have promised Renly the Stormlands before that but it was within his right as King and LP of the Stormlands to retract his offer. So in few words, Stannis had roughly 9 years to convince his older brother to give him something better. Robert could have easily done that. Dragonstone was meant for Robert’s heir and once Joffrey was born, Stannis was not his heir anymore. Robert could have argued that Stannis will have to vacate dragonstone offering him the Stormlands instead. Stannis would probably be overjoyed by that and no one of note would protest to that (Renly was around 10 at the time). So lets have a look what Stannis did between 284 and 293 He got married to a woman who held no political significance. That was extremely irresponsible from Stannis part. a- First of all, Ryam Florent wasn’t even Lord. If there’s another revolt, the Florents might not even bother joining the Baratheons cause (think of how Walder sided with Robb despite his second son was married to a Lannister). b- Secondly the Florents aren’t the Umbers or the Reeds who are happy to serve their LP/Wardens. They claim to have a bigger claim to the Reach then the Tyrells. Surely the Tyrells weren’t happy seeing the King’s heir marrying to one of them especially since they had previously fought against Robert and nearly starved Stannis to death. That marriage was probably one of the reasons why the Tyrells preferred bending the knee to Joffrey then Stannis and the main reason why Stannis didn’t got the Stormlands. The King simply couldn’t be seen further appeasing/rewarding a rival family of a powerhouse by appointing one of them as Lady of the Stormlands especially since the Tyrells could raise a 100k army against him. PS: It might also explain (this is highly speculative) why Robert gatecrashed Stannis wedding by fecking someone with an equal claim to Brightwater’s keep as Selyse. Sure the king couldn’t keep it in his pants. There again, he did attended meetings outside home (ex Winterfell) without fecking people with noble blood did he?
  13. why does everyone blame Renly for Stannis's mistake

    I used to think that it was meant as a slight to Stannis too. In matter I wrote a thread about that too. However, the more I delved deep into GOT politics, the more I learnt that its not the case. First of all, let set something clear. Robert owed Stannis nothing. He could have kept him without any lands and titles. Stannis had no one to back him up so if he rebelled against his brother he would have ended up dead. Robert could also kept Stannis as temporary Lord of Dragonstone only for the latter to vacate the place once the true heir (aka Joffrey) comes to age. So, no, Robert's decision wasn't meant to slight Stannis However, I don't believe he gave his lands freely out of the kindness of his heart either. That include both Renly and Stannis -------------------------------. We can presume that Renly took the Lordship at around 16 years of age. That means, Tommen, Myrcella and Joffrey were already born. Robert's relationship with the queen had already soured at that point, so we can presume Robert wasn't planning having more children. Even if he did have more male children, they would have been unimportant in the great scheme of things. Now we know that the old lion hated his heir dearly. That means that by keeping Jamie as KG, Tywin had no choice but to either gulp his pride and allow an imp to take CR or else rely on the King's justice to sort this thorny issue. I am pretty sure that the Stag would solve that issue out if Tywin agreed to name Tommen as heir. With Tommen booked we've got 3 lands (Dragonstone, the Crownlands and the Stormlands) and 3 contenders (Stannis, Joffrey and Renly) Joffrey was Robert's trump card. He was heir to the throne and nephew of the great Tywin Lannister. However Joffrey could only marry 1 person and by marrying Sansa, Robert was able to put a Baratheon right in the middle of the Northern co-alition (Tully, Stark and Arryn). Renly was way down the pecking order but the boy was extremely charismatic. By giving him the Stormlands Renly was able to get close enough to the Tyrells turning a potential Targ loyalist to a friend. Which leads us to dragonstone. The island had no significance for the Baratheons but it certainly had loads of significance for the Targs. First of all its the sea gate to KL. Any fleet trying to capture KL would most surely pass from there. Secondly if the the Targs re-conquered dragonstone than the psychological effect would be devastating. The risk of Lords going to a nostalgia trip is reasonably high. Stannis might have the charisma of dried tomato but he certainly know how to resist a siege and would sell his skin at a very high price. That's something neither Renly nor Joffrey would be able to do.
  14. Tyrion's killing of Tywin was an over reaction?

    We're not referring to modern day police though isn't it but a family who exterminated innocent women and children throughout 2 generations of violence. Joffrey was a liability while Tyrion was an asset. If Tyrion did indeed kill the king then he was doing family a big favour just as Tywin is supposed to have done when he massacred the Reynes, Elia and her children + Robb Stark. At a time of crisis the Lannister should have stood together. Instead they went through a blood fest that ended up weakening their dynasty