Dolorous Gabe

Oh I know he isn't in that place in the show. I admit I was really just talking about the books. On the show I literally have no idea how it's going to play out. I have a feeling he would care about Tommen in the show, because I get the impression the change to his arc is essentially that he now wants to become more of a father to his offspring. That seems to be the sum of his 'redemptive' arc in the show that started in the Riverlands. Apparently something major is supposed to happen in Dorne in the final episode of this season so I guess it might shed more light on what the point of it is.

I hinted at it in the comment you replied to, but I don't see the affairs as the only reason for Jaime turning against her in the books. Obviously the words get stuck in his brain, but I'm not even convinced he believed Tyrion's words. Jaime's outlook is fundamentally changed by his experiences with Brienne, even if he doesn't realise it fully until much later. Although they are initially pleased to see one-another when they reunite, it doesn't take long before Cersei outright says that he has changed. This fundamental change is most obviously represented by his missing his sword hand, but it goes deeper than that. I believe Cersei never truly loved Jaime, at least not in the way that he loved her, and she has been manipulating him all his life. What eventually turns him against her is that he starts to understand her manipulation of him and he starts seeing things in her he doesn't like (the growing madness, the burning of the Red Keep etc). I believe it was a mutual fall-out that was organically written throughout the time they shared in this period of time in KL when both of them had gone through traumatic events that shaped them into different people, that is until Cersei gets arrested and sends that letter (again, manipulation when she needs him). It's much a deeper chasm that opens up between them than mere infidelity, and it's mutual up until Cersei's desperation. Regarding 'redemption', what's is redemptive is his newfound desire to hold to his word and the desire to create a greater legacy for himself than that of the dishonourable Kingslayer. Now, this is still fairly egocentric but it's a start. He is no longer doing Cersei's bidding out of love ("the things I do for love") and Brienne's sense of honour has rubbed off on him.

The trouble here is that they haven't established any reason for Jaime to fall out with Cersei. In the books Jaime comes to the realisation that Cersei never truly loved him the way he loved her and starts to see through her manipulation of him, but the show hasn't yet given him any reason to think that is the case. He hasn't watched her losing her mind, Tyrion never spoke his line and they never fully played up the way their relationship is significantly changed since he returned to KL less a hand. So, I'm really not sure how it's going to play out and what the show has in store for them. If he received a letter now and burned it, Jaime would look a bit of a dick to be honest.

If Davos can get back to CB, so can the rest of them. There was no established reason for it. None whatsoever. It's not even proven that it works.

By far the worst episode of the show yet. Cheap emotional manipulation through inconsistent characterisations. Myriad gaps in logic. It's just bad storytelling on every level. There was literally zero reason for the decision to burn Shireen. None whatsoever. If it were to happen, the situation should be in extreme desperation and have absolutely no alternative. They had an alternative, which they even established. Turn back for CB along with Davos. Added to this, having any scene after it was insulting both to the viewer and to Shireen, whose elevation as a character compared to her book counterpart has been a major positive for the show previously. It was like they were telling us "yeah that was horrific and sad, wasn't it. Now here's some fighting and a dragon and a khaleesi riding a dragon to finish on. That's better, right?". They're treating their audience like morons, their story with complete disregard and their characters with disdain. And this doesn't even begin to touch on how lacking the rest of the episode was in narrative sense. No reason given as to why Jon and co. decided to abandon ship and walk through the haunted forest to the wrong side of the wall at CB, halfway along said wall no less. Dorne's rapid resolution rendered the whole thing even more ridiculous and pointless than it already seemed. The Meereen pit sequence was clumsy and senseless. I guess marrying a Meereenese noble and opening the fighting pits didn't work after all. So many questions linger over wtf has been going on in Meereen. My previous worst rating was a 4. This one gets a well deserved 1/10 from me. I've never been close to being a Stannis fan and I gave last week's good episode an 8.

I hope Brienne doesn't kill Stannis.... ....I hope Davos does.

No. Discussion is allowed in the rant threads, just within the confines of criticism. It means there is a safe haven for such opinions to be discussed, just like the positive nitpicking threads are a safe haven for discussion within the confines of what people like about the show. A post is a post, wherever it is posted. To claim the whereabouts of a post is indicative of its value is ridiculous. Why should you take my post seriously? You shouldn't. At least not until you've read it.

I agree. It's amazing how everyone seems to know that Roose Bolton stabbed Robb.

:agree: Over and over and over :P

Nicely done :lol:

Easily the best episode of the season so far. I gave it an 8 mostly for entertainment value. The lack of the 1/10 Dorne story meant it wasn't dragged down too much. I can't forgive the dreadfully handled Sansa in Winterhell story line and it shouldn't take the situation she has been put in for Sansa to finally attempt to take control of her life. The change we're finally seeing in Sophie's performance shouldn't have required rape and a ridiculous marriage to Ramsay to facilitate it. Arya in Braavos is generally pretty good, but she should have been on this assignment sooner than ep8. I'm not sure about the Sam/Gilly/Olly sequence. I will need to re-evaluate it on a second viewing. I'm not sure about how they've handled King's Landing. I'm not keen that we're already supposed to have sympathy for Cersei and getting to this postion has been very dubiously handled. The whole point of the punishment we have got so far is the challenge it brings to our sense of what justice is. If we already sympathise before it happens, the point of the punishment in the story is somewhat lost. The Hardhome battle was an impressive piece of entertainment and I was very much on the edge of my seat, not knowing how it would play out, particularly when Edd went missing (even though it's a crime how un-dolorous he is in the show). The difference here is that this mission to Hardhome feels quite a logical result of how the show has changed things. The reasons for it were established and built up and it made sense for Tormund to ask Jon to go with him. Braavos and the Night's Watch stories have been relatively well handled this season, even if Braavos/THoBaW could have developed quicker. The rest leaves a huge amount to be desired.

I'm not sure TV-Ghost ever was, was he? I thought they had neglected that element of Book-Ghost from the start.

I'm guessing they just locked it because the new episode is on the way and for the length of it. That said, I had just written a huge post and when I tried to post it I couldn't :pirate:

I watched this episode with my dad and my sister and their reaction to the Bronn/Tyene was pretty much the same.

Where would be the proof though? They must surely require something more than someone's word? And if she's arrested for that, then surely they'll start questioning Tommen's right to the throne. On the other hand, it was pretty much someone's word that got Loras and Margaery put in a cell. All these incriminations feel entirely too easy even in a world so devoid of lawful fairness as Westeros is. The wine thing I agree, Lancel's admission of his own role in that is enough to seize Cersei.

They don't. The only legitimate criticism of Feast and Dance is that a few chapters should have been combined with others to say what needed to be said in less words and less POVs and Quentyn probably didn't need to be a POV. We could have learned about him and his relevance to the Dornish story in Arianne's POV and then he just shows up in Dany's POV in Meereen to fulfil his dragon-'taming' duty. Brienne's story is problematic because we know she's on a fruitless expedition, and perhaps we could have had less chapters of hers, but they do serve a purpose to the themes of Feast.

I don't think a charge was stated. I guess it'll be the conspiracy to murder Robert unless she was having sex with Lancel whilst married to Robert. They should certainly explain it at some point anyway.

"Better to gamble on the man you know than the strangers you don't" (season 4 episode 8)

Little you say here is false, but none of it makes the choices of the show any better. There's a difference between the allegedly dashing Harry being her next suitor and a Bolton being her next suitor (the Starks' long term enemies in Northern feudal history and well know in-world to have played a considerable part in RW). The fundamentals upon which this story has grown are ludicrous at best. Just a few things points though. LF said he didn't know anything about Ramsay, so how could he know he had fallen for her? And how could Ramsay have fallen for her when he has never seen her? Finally, I've said this numerous times before but Sansa does NOT trust LF. He is simply the devil she knows as opposed to the devil she doesn't know. Whatever way you swing it, Sansa is made to look completely moronic by the events leading to this story line.

Character development is different to story development. Sansa has made many mistakes but in the show she doesn't appear to have learned from them. That change of attire and style you referred to previously. Your comment said exactly why it was stupid to use that as a means to swiftly suggest a learning curve without writing it organically, but if it wasn't there to suggest said learning curve then what on Planetos was the point of it? Sansa accepting a marriage to a Bolton with the advice "make him yours" ringing in her ears was beyond moronic. However little character development she has gone through, she would have to be Lollys-level dimwitted to even consider it. Jeyne didn't have a choice. Sansa did.

The difference is that the circumstances that led to Jeyne playing the fake Arya to marry Ramsay came out of logical story developments and character motivations. Put any female in that situation and she's going to get raped unless there's a miraculous rescue mission before it happens. Context makes a difference. There was something deeply moving about Theon and Jeyne 'bonding' (can't think of a better word at the moment) over the shared experience of being 'broken' by Ramsay. That's what was used to develop Theon's redemptive arc, not the rape itself.

Gave it a 5 and felt generous doing so. The lack of narrative and character sense is overwhelming. Dorne is beyond dreadful. The WF story line is horrible in almost every way (Alfie Allen is doing his best to redeem it but it's impossible). Meereen feels half baked. King's Landing lacks narrative sense and moral complexity. Tyrion's journey has been a mixed bag. Castle Black and Braavos have been the best done sections this season and both still fall somewhat short. Much of the dialogue is simply terrible now.

The difference petal is that everyone else is giving reasons for their opinions. Extremely good reasons, which have been formed from a critical thought process. You give an opinion, you should be able to back it up because a thought process must have taken place for you to come to that particular conclusion. You've given no reasons and not once made the effort to explain your point of view. Nor have you ever offered a proper counter argument to those being presented that you "disagree" with.

Of course I did. It was obvious as soon as they contrived to have Sansa in Jeyne Poole's position beyond all realms of narrative sense. I don't see how else they can play it. She's either a victim, treated with honesty and realism. Or she's 'empowered' by the experience and seeks revenge. As I explained, it's either a terrible narrative choice for the story or a terrible narrative choice for Sansa's character development. Both ways it's a bad choice.

Yet still not responding to my points.