Crowfood's Daughter

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  1. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    I will give you a tag on the Garth OP. I have something that would need to be overhauled, but the sad thing about numbers it that it is a very ambitious task and difficult to pinpoint the concepts. I know the number nine and the number three are significant when it comes to the Long Night plot arch. The crown, the weirwood circle, the steps hewn into Nagga's hill it is all very something and the crown does seem to be the most iconic purveyor of this concept, yet other passages are harder to piece together into something that is not grasping or forced.
  2. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    . The King in the buried in the Barrowlands is Garth the Green, so Barrow King = Gardener King. I would think House Tarth and Dayne would be excellent contenders in addition to your list. The thing we have to be very careful with when looking at that crown and assigning houses to each spike is the fact that the Red Kings may not have been fighting on the same side as House Stark during the Long Night, so whatever the Starks were doing during the Long Night, they were also fighting the Red Kings The enmity between the Starks and Boltons went back to the Long Night itself, it is claimed. The wars between these two ancient families were legion, and not all ended in victory for House Stark. King Royce Bolton, Second of His Name, is said to have taken and burned Winterfell itself; his namesake and descendant Royce IV (remembered by history as Royce Redarm, for his habit of plunging his arm into the bellies of captive foes to pull out their entrails with his bare hand) did the same three centuries later. Other Red Kings were reputed to wear cloaks made from the skins of Stark princes they had captured and flayed. I think the Stark crown is reminiscent of the "runic crown" of the Bronze Kings. We see in the story, each crown is pretty unique and provides it's own symbolism. The crown may actually be a combination of more than one crown kind of like the crowns of upper and lower Egypt combining. It is obvious there was iron during the long Night as there are stories about the Others hating iron, but it is also pretty certain the First Men were still predominately bronze users, or maybe had not iron at all as we see with House Thenn. I believe the Stark Crown is reminiscent of taking the crowns of two different peoples and bringing the two together which is why we see a bronze runic crown with iron spikes. I have been seeing the number nine for quite a white now, and what I can tell you, is it is symbolizing something primordial and hints at the Harpy, the Gods Eye and Ironborn among other things
  3. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    Just thought I'd mention something. I am originally from rural Nebraska, and my first job was in the corn fields. I detassled and rogued corn and walked a few beans in my youth. Detassling is kind of like corn castration in a sense, so that would have made me a corn castrator . Anyway, there is something done after harvest in many fields called "controlled burns", and you will basically see corn fields in flames. To the outsider this would seem inappropriate or even self defeating, but in reality the old stalks had to go and burning is the easiest way around it. So every year I would see a quite a few "Fields of Fire", and from the ashes the new crop would eventually be replanted. Although tilling is another option, fire can be a part of the real world agricultural cycle when planting on a large scale.
  4. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    I didn't feel @Unchained was being literal with the small details mentioned with the parallelism, but was just throwing a few ideas out there by pointing out some possibilities. Every once in a while there is a smaller detail that leads to a bigger discovery or can even fuel the ideas of another member on a totally unrelated topic. I want to let you know you express your thoughts in English very well and agree with you in that GRRM has his own way of taking what he wants when it comes to myth and folklore. My take is that the kinslaying theme is most heavily influenced by concepts from Cain/Abel and Ba'al. Learning that Saturn/Cronus can be interchangeable with Ba'al gives us another thematic tie in and when we see stuff alluding to Saturn it may be suggesting the Ba'al cycle theme that has been mentioned.
  5. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    I think it was part of the discussion between me and @Unchained.
  6. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    Yes, I watched it twice with the speed slowed to 0.5 in order to get everything. What I took from it is the overlapping theme that Ba'al/Saturn and Cronus are much interchangeable as deities. The child sacrifice reminds me of Nagga feeding on Krakens and Leviathans, although with the ASOIAF storyline, blood sacrifice is not specific to only children. With the heraldry, I don't think this is the case for the colors of the sigils or all mentions of heraldry in the books. I think GRRM borrows what he likes and scraps what he doesn't and has many ways to clue the reader in on the grey/green struggle, the sable as a clue being one of them in certain passages. Ba'al and Cain/Abel seem to be what he borrowed from the most when it comes to the kinslaying aspect of this topic, so learning Saturn (Cronus)and Ba'al are something of the same deity is a neat little nugget when examining the sable cloaks which I see as more or less representing the grey/green Ba'al cycle theme of the Long Night. He shrieked for mercy and cursed the red woman and began to laugh hysterically. Jon watched unblinking. He dare not appear squeamish before his brothers. He had ordered out two hundred men, Mounted in solemn sable ranks with tall spears in hand, they had drawn up their hoods to shadow their faces … and hide the fact that so many were greybeards and green boys. The free folk feared the Watch. Jon wanted them to take that fear with them to their new homes south of the Wall. The horn crashed amongst the logs and leaves and kindling. Within three heartbeats the whole pit was aflame. Clutching the bars of his cage with bound hands, Mance sobbed and begged. When the fire reached him he did a little dance. BTW. Have you checked out the story of Moses? I know you were looking at some stories of people trapped in a wooden box and flung into the ocean but eventually being saved. Moses was placed in a wicker basket to avoid being killed and was saved by ehyptian royalty. He later had his epiphany discovering the true meaning of his destiny after the whole burning bush thing. Might have something of interest.
  7. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    @ravenous reader and @Unchained. I just found something pretty cool linking Saturn and Baal in more intimately woven detail.
  8. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    I'm not quite sure what to make of it other than some sort of ancestral relation. Any specifics, I have none whatsoever. Only my suspicions and the fact they call Ramsay's eyes "ghost grey" like his father's and the Royce's seem to have grey eyes. Ramsay also had a sable cloak that he gave to the original Reek in order to escape.
  9. Royce as first family to be named meaningless or foreshadowing?

    Anyone else notice the only historical Boltons we know about are Royce I, Royce II, Royce III, Royce IV and Royce V, Rogar the huntsman, and Belthasar Bolton? I mean, it seems like Royce is a familial traditional name for the Boltons like Brandon, Aegon or Durran. Roose is most likely a variation of Royce. We also have Rogar the Huntsman and the Royces have Robar Royce, Robar I Royce, Robar II Royce. I have nothing else to go off of, just a lingering suspicion I have had for the past few days.
  10. Bastards' Secrets: Hidden Meanings in Bastard Names

    @Isobel Harper yes, I made that connection after realizing they compared Rhaegar's "bookish" tendencies to Baelor the Blessed, then Rhaegar read something in the scrolls that changed him. Baelor was influenced by prophesy not piety. All of the things Baelor did start to make sense from this standpoint, even making the eight year old boy who could "speak to birds" High Septon. The Danae and Balor similarities kind of sealed it for me. I think his readings, studies and prophetic dragon dreams ruled his life and he most likely confused his dragon dreams for the seven speaking to him. Poor guy. Linking this back to the OP, Baelor was trying to prevent certain bastards during his reign by imprisoning his sisters, giving tax breaks to lords who make their daughters wear chastity belts and giving the whores in town the boot. Years later, Aegon the Unworthy's bastards split the realm in two which would have implications for generations.
  11. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    This somehow reminds me of Lancel's mentioning to Jaime that through his jealously he wanted to be Jaime, and Theon's remarks to Lady Dustin that he wanted to be a Stark. The conversation played out in the crypts after she had donned her cloak. It does seem that is the case for quite a bit of the kinslaying we see. The younger brother wants to fill the role of the older. I need to read Dorian Gray, I have been oblivious to this story and sounds very intriguing. Making a deal with the devil always makes for good reading. BTW, with your trapped greenseers ideas, you may want to look at the brothers Arryk and Erryk Cargyll. They were two brothers who killed each other in the Dance of Dragons. One was fighting for the Greens and the Other for the Blacks. Their sigil is a golden goose, a bizarre looking sigil if you ask me. Have you ever read the tale of the golden goose? There were three brothers who were sent out to chop down some trees. The first guy rebuked a grey man asking for help and met an unfortunate accident. Same thing happened with the second brother. The third brother was kind to the grey man and when he chopped down a tree, he found that he had freed a golden goose. The story reminded me of what you were mentioning of trees needing to be destroyed in order to free the greenseer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Goose http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Cargyll
  12. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    @LmL Emesh and Enten, Cain and Abel Many scholars have pointed to the similarities between the Sumerian tale of Emesh and Enten and the biblical tale of Cain and Abel. Samuel Noah Kramer called the Emesh and Enten tale "the closest extant Sumerian parallel to the Biblical Cain and Abel story". In the Sumerian tale, the god Enlil has sex with the Earth, which gives birth to two boys named Emesh and Enten. Emesh is a personification of summer and Enten a personification of winter. Each brother brings an offering to Enlil, but Enten becomes angry with Emesh and the two begin an argument. In Genesis, Adam has sex with Eve, who gives birth to two boys named Cain and Abel. Cain worked the soil and Abel kept flocks. Each brother brings an offering to Yahweh. Yahweh looks favorably on Abel's offering but not on Cain's, so Cain becomes angry. Also found this: The direwolf banner of House Stark flapped and fluttered atop the lance he bore. Catelyn could not see the sea from here, but she could feel how close it was. The smell of salt was heavy on the wind gusting from the east. Stannis Baratheon’s foragers had cut the trees down for his siege towers and catapults. Catelyn wondered how long the grove had stood, and whether Ned had rested here when he led his host south to lift the last siege of Storm’s End. He had won a great victory that day, all the greater for being bloodless.
  13. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    Boom!
  14. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    You know, I had this long response and it got eaten when I tried to send, that’s my luck for ya right there. Anyway, I think you should reconsider what I presented to you when it comes to sable being an illusion to grey/green Ba’al cyle stuff. Seriously. Let’s start with Lady Dustin, she is easy. She is the Lady of Barrowton (where the First King is buried) and wears the cloak when she goes down into the hollow hill of the crypts of Winterfell, she is also wearing a vair collar in the same scene which is a nod to heraldry. Next we have Baelor Blacktyde we have a guy who has that Bael derivative I have mentioned in the OP and discussion thread. He is also the only one without any hints or allusions to kinslaying, but is slain by our kinslayer extraordinaire, Euron. Baelor is an ironborn with greenland ties and we find Baelor at the Kingsmoot at the hollow hill of “nagga” and wears green and black vairy which is a nod to heraldry. Euron later takes the cloak from Baelor after he kills him. Euron needs little explaining, he is our kinslaying bad guy with naughty greenseer associations. That brings us to Tommen, and really Tywin too. Dead Tywin gets some sable in the same scene. What we need to look at is the context of the scene and what is being said by Cersei. Cersei speaks not only of Tywins death, but also Joffrey’s and Robert’s. Cersei reflects on Tywin’s death and the kinslaying manner of which it came about, wishing for her brother’s death and reveling in the thought of having his head (she is daydreaming of killing her brother). There is also mention of Tommen filling his brother’s shoes and kingship now that his brother is dead. When there is mention of Robert, we have to remember this is the death of a horned-storm king. When you put that into context, it starts to line up pretty evenly with the Ba’al cycle theme and the ermine mentioned in the scene is yet another heraldry nod. Before we address the Boltons, lets take a look at a few others, like this guy: “Gone,” cried Mormont’s raven, flapping up into the weirwood to perch above them. “Gone, gone, gone.” “There were wildlings at Whitetree only a year ago.” Thoren Smallwood looked more a lord than Mormont did, clad in Ser Jaremy Rykker’s gleaming black mail and embossed breastplate. His heavy cloak was richly trimmed with sable, and clasped with the crossed hammers of the Rykkers, wrought in silver. Ser Jaremy’s cloak, once … but the wight had claimed Ser Jaremy, and the Night’s Watch wasted nothing. “A year ago Robert was king, and the realm was at peace,” declared Jarman Buckwell, the square stolid man who commanded the scouts. “Much can change in a year’s time.” Thoren is wearing the Sable cloak of his dead “brother”. Thoren Smallwood literally has Thor in his name and is wearing hammers. We also see a weirwood in this passage. Thoren’s surname is a nod to trees and Jarman’s surname is a nod to stags. There is also mention of Robert’s death, our horned-storm King. We also have Denys Mallister, and with this passage, we have to again look at the context of what is happening. Samwell is going to both Cotter Pyke and Mallister. The two “brothers” hate each other. This disdain stems from the fact that Pyke is Ironborn and Mallister is of the green lands of Seaguard that have been raided by the Ironborn for thousands of years. They are grey/green brothers and natural foes. Hobb is possibly a reference to horned-green guy Robin Goodfellow (aka Puck) (aka the Hobbgoblin). The Hobbgoblin was a sort of trickster ….anyway Sam uses the disdain the two brothers have for each other for his benefit. (the Hobb thing is something I am working on, old three finger shows up quite a bit on the wall so it has been slow to analyze). Pyke laughed. “Who does that leave, Hobb? We could pick him, I suppose, only then who’s going to boil your mutton, Slayer? You look like a man who likes his bloody mutton.” There was nothing more to say. Defeated, Sam could only stammer out his thanks and take his leave. I will do better with Ser Denys, he tried to tell himself as he walked through the castle. Samwell, it is not my habit to speak unkindly of my brothers, but let us be frank … the ironborn are a race of pirates and thieves, and Cotter Pyke was raping and murdering when he was still half a boy. Maester Harmune reads and writes his letters, and has for years. No, loath as I am to disappoint Maester Aemon, I could not in honor stand aside for Pyke of Eastwatch.” This time Sam was ready. “Might you for someone else? If it was someone more suitable?” This next excerpt does a good job with the green Garth symbolism in addition to horns blowing. We have green men coming through oaken doors, we see a mention of “heralds” and we see two brothers, one brother, Garlan, with a Garth name variation. A fanfare of brazen trumpets greeted each of the heroes as he stepped between the great oaken doors. Heralds cried his name and deeds for all to hear, and the noble knights and highborn ladies cheered as lustily as cutthroats at a cockfight. Pride of place was given to Mace Tyrell, the Lord of Highgarden, a once-powerful man gone to fat, yet still handsome. His sons followed him in; Ser Loras and his older brother Ser Garlan the Gallant. The three dressed alike, in green velvet trimmed with sable. So now lets talk about the Boltons, because it is not just Ramsay wearing sable, but Lady Bolton is wearing sable as well. This was the hardest one to figure out…where do the Boltons fit? After much searching I almost gave up, then went to the wiki page of House Bolton for some last resort inspiration and this was what I found. Since the Long Night the Red Kings were bitter rivals of the Kings of Winter, the Starks of Winterfell. The Boltons achieved some successes against the Starks, with Kings Royce II and Royce IV burning Winterfell. The Boltons are said to have flayed the skins of several Stark lords and hung them in the Dreadfort. According to rumor, some Bolton lords wore the flayed skins of their enemies—including Starks, such as the son of Bael—as cloaks. This practice has given the Boltons a sinister reputation. The last Red King, Rogar the Huntsman, submitted to Winterfell when the Andal invasion of Westeros was also beginning. King Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf, and the Boltons defeated Argos Sevenstar and his Andals in the Battle of the Weeping Water. The Chronicles of Longsister state that during the Rape of the Three Sisters by the Kings of Winter, which occurred two thousand years ago, Belthasar Bolton had a Pink Pavilion made from the flayed skins of a hundred Sistermen. To start off, Balthazar is derived from the Phoenician Balat-shar-usur, meaning "Ba’al protects the King". Yes, right off the bat we see Ba’al and Royce. Insanely, there have been at least FIVE Royce Boltons. It seems like a generational name like Durran or Brandon. Roose is even possibly a variation of Royce. If you want something connecting the Boltons to Waymar Royce and his sable cloak, well there you go. In fact, the Boltons are well known for their cloaks, it is kind of “their thing”. We even see a Bolton being snuck into the Story of Bael the Bard, and the Boltons making a cloak out of his kinslayer son. “Be quiet,” Abel warned her. Lord Ramsay descended from the dais to the dead boy. His father rose more slowly, pale-eyed, still-faced, solemn. “This was foul work.” For once Roose Bolton’s voice was loud enough to carry. “Where was the body found?” “Under that ruined keep, my lord,” replied Big Walder. “The one with the old gargoyles.” The boy’s gloves were caked with his cousin’s blood. “I told him not to go out alone, but he said he had to find a man who owed him silver.” “What man?” Ramsay demanded. “Give me his name. Point him out to me, boy, and I will make you a cloak of his skin.” Looks like they are trying to skin some more kinslayers! We also see the Boltons have been foes of the Starks since the Long Night, now that is more than a little suspicious. So if we think about the Long Night lasting a generation, whatever the Starks were doing during the Long Night, they were also fighting these guys. Later in history, we also see mention of the Boltons making common cause with Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. This is the same Theon that smashed and drove out the Ironborn from the North. The same Theon whom Theon Greyjoy calls his “namesake”. Theon Greyjoy has been a prisoner of the Boltons for three books. THEY are the ones that made Theon corpse-like, well at least Ramsay is anyway. btw, Ba’al is depicted as either a bull or a ram…get it? RAMsay. I am sure you would agree with me that a “cloak” is another way of saying to hide or keep hidden, and I think that is exactly what GRRM is doing with the Boltons. I can’t say the Boltons are descendants of a brother in this grey/green Ba’al cyle, but I can say the Boltons were there and played their part in the grey/green Long Night. Who knows? Maybe they even have some relation with House Royce as well? Rogar the Huntsman/ Robar Royce, Robar I Royce, Robar II Royce…maybe this will be something else to look into later. When reading the prologue, remember we are starting our story with brothers. Pay attention to our grey-eyed greenboy with the sable cloak. Take note of the grey-green sentinels and what the wind is doing to the trees and to that cloak. Keep in mind Gared is a Garth variation, he is also much older than the other two and has been a brother for 40 years meaning he is like a grey Garth, and Will is a guy stuck at the wall for poaching stags on Mallister lands again grey/green. It is all there, even a resurrection of one brother. After learning certain gemstones and celestial bodies corresponded with colors in heraldry, I realized this may be something GRRM has drawn from since gemstones and celestial bodies have their role in the series. Knowing GRRM is well versed in heraldry, I was quite interested when I learned sable is a color in heraldry and that Saturn corresponded with it. Saturn/Cronus being our sickle wielding, grey bearded, Father time guy with agricultural associations. The grey/green man himself @Unchained, I think I am getting my Cronus ideas straightened out when it comes to sable. SABLE--->ABLE----->ABEL
  15. The Grey King fought Garth the Greenhand

    Yeah I had picked up on Cronus about a week ago, but still trying to get my thoughts straight. The ideas I get are usually like a murky swamp where things just sit and slosh around until I can make heads or tales of them. You are right that Cronus is also a "dead" ringer in his father time semblance. But he also had some fertility things going for him as well. Kind of like the duality that @LmL has been pointing to. The crazy thing is that I noticed there is a connection to Cronus with Waymar Royce's sable cloak. Turns out sable is also a color used in heraldry and we know how much GRRM is a heraldry buff, so I decided to go down that rabbit hole and sure enough. Sable corresponds to Saturn (aka Cronus) in heraldry. Centuries ago, arms were often described poetically and the tinctures were connected to different gemstones, flowers and heavenly bodies. Sable usually represented the following: Of jewels, the diamond[1] Of heavenly bodies, Saturn[1] Of flowers, the herb nightshade, in these circumstances also called dwal[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sable_(heraldry So I went chasing Cronus and yes he has Grey/green stuff working for him as well. Now just trying to make heads or tales of Waymar Royce, because GRRM mentioned that cloak so many times in the prologue.