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Everything posted by RainGhost

  1. Some very good points made. I would also like to add that the pointlessness of Quentyn's mission is kind of the point. A young life was snuffed out so that Doran could get vengeance against people who are already dead. And it failed anyway. Quentyn is one of my favourite characters. I think he was a great addition to the story. He didn't have that many chapters, so I don't know what people are complaining about.
  2. I think the war in the riverlands is so violent because GRRM is making the point that Tywin went above and beyond what was necessary. I think it's a deliberate exaggeration of medieval warfare to show the type of person that Tywin is and what he's capable of. Even in-universe people think it's over the top. Brynden Tully said: "it would sicken even the dead" and we know that he's no stranger to war and doesn't share Edmure's love of the smallfolk.
  3. On the surface, causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people (both your own and those you want to rule) just so that you can expand your own power base is not a good idea and certainly not ethical but medieval politics is more complicated than that. Aegon I conquered Westeros with dragons but when the dragons all died, the Targs were vulnerable (as Robert's Rebellion proved). The only thing keeping them in power was tradition and the person of the king. By proving his skills in combat, Daeron I made himself very popular amongst the nobility. He gave young noblemen the chance for glory and advancement and gave the storm lords and reach lords the chance to get revenge on the Dornish for the centuries of fighting. He also proved that he was (probably) the best general in Westeros and was therefore not to be messed with. In short, it was less about expanding his kingdom and more about consolidating his power over his existing kingdom, which was very important. And, despite the best efforts and Baelor the Blessed and Aegon the Unworthy, it seems to have worked until Aerys II came along.
  4. Good question. Theon obviously would have supported him. I think Asha would have been interested but I think she would have been clever enough to negotiate a good deal for the Ironborn before committing e.g. land in the North. Euron might go with it but only if it fitted with his own plans. It would be an alliance of convenience and not a true alliance. He would consider all along that he was only using the boy king and would turn on him in an instant. He wouldn't invade the North, though. He wouldn't see the point. Victarion might go with it but only because he has no imagination. He wouldn't think of invading the North. But, like with Euron, it would only be an alliance of convenience. Either way, none of them would have invaded the North and without that it's a different war, especially if the Ironborn invade the Westerlands instead.
  5. I would be one of Margaery's cousins but with a bit of the Queen of Thorns in me. Not in the limelight but with a stable family life. Feminine and with a bit of steel. Either that or I would be some peasant in the riverlands who gets horribly raped and murdered.
  6. It's possible I suppose but I think it would be more likely to go to a northman. I think the most likely candidate would be a Manderly because they will surely be the main driving force behind House Stark's restoration and would therefore deserve a pretty hefty reward (not to mention that there's a good chance they'll be in charge during Rickon's minority). At the very least I see most of the Bolton lands going to the Manderlys, even if not the castle itself. Maybe the castle could go to a loyal (and surviving) Winterfell man like Hal Mollen or Harwin.
  7. I'd agree with this. Seeing as his strategy with Brynden, Cat and Lysa was to marry them off to powerful Houses in other regions, I imagine he was planning something similar for Edmure but just hadn't found the right match yet. After all, Edmure, as the heir, was the most important, so it's not surprising he held out so long. And Edmure was still young, so there was no rush.
  8. I would certainly not be OK with Roose or Ramsay surviving. Their crimes against the North are too great and for that reason I really can't see them surviving. The Bolton baby is another matter. I despise child murderers and therefore could really not support total extermination. However, there's no way the Bolton baby can be allowed to inherit the Dreadfort, at least not without losing the lordship and pretty much all the land. The Boltons have been fighting the Starks for centuries, so this can't be waved aside as a bad generation. But this time they betrayed the entire North - the Starks cannot let the Boltons get away with that. They will have to show that they are fair and just by punishing the traitors and rewarding the loyal vassals. If the Bolton baby is a boy, he should be raised at Winterfell then sent to the Wall when he's old enough. A girl could be allowed to inherit the Dreadfort (with reduced lands) but she should be married to someone loyal and would therefore lose the name. However, I think there's a good chance that Ramsay will kill the baby or some other northman in vengeance (after all, the baby is unfortunately also half Frey).
  9. You've clearly put a lot of thought into this and have used quotations to back your theory. However, I don't think you're right. Aside from GRRM's admitted mistake, Catelyn's and Jaime's differing descriptions of Jeyne can be explained in other ways. Catelyn is assessing Jeyne's suitability as a wife for her 16 year-old son. Jaime calls her a child but she's the same age as Robb, so this isn't an issue for Catelyn. Catelyn calls her pretty but, really, Jeyne's appearance is the least of her concerns. When assessing Jeyne's hips, she's looking to see if Jeyne will be able to carry and give birth to a child. Jaime is assessing Jeyne based on whether she is "a girl to lose a kingdom for" (initially judging her solely on appearance). Essentially, he's comparing her to Cersei (who he lost a kingdom for). As a man twice Jeyne's age, it's natural that Jaime should see her as a child. He dismisses Jeyne as merely pretty because she's not as beautiful as Cersei. When assessing Jeyne's hips, Jaime is looking at her womanly figure. Again, Jeyne falls short compared to Cersei but this doesn't mean that she doesn't still have child-bearing hips. Finally, Catelyn and Jaime see Jeyne at very different times. Catelyn sees a new bride, full of hope and in love with her husband. Jaime sees a widow who is grieving for her husband and worried for her brother (Raynald by the way). She could very easily have lost weight through grief, guilt and stress. She would also be feeling lost - she has lost a whole future and no longer has a place in the world. Is it really a surprise that we get two different descriptions? Besides, swtiching Jeyne with her sister would not have worked - I think Jaime would have realised he was a girl short. Not to mention that if GRRM wants Jeyne free he can always have her escape in TWOW when the Blackfish comes to rescue her without needing a switch. I think he wanted us to see the real Jeyne so that we could see her reaction to Robb's death and see that she never betrayed him. Also, it allows Jaime to compare her to Cersei (and eventually see where Cersei falls short).
  10. I think Robb probably kept the will with him. He was pretty confident that he would win the battle at Moat Cailin but he knew he could die in the process, so would probably just have left the will with someone he trusted during the battle. The only other alternatives are sending it to Seagard or Riverrun. I don't think he would have sent it with Maege and Glover because it was too risky. Even if the will was destroyed, all 5 witnesses are currently still alive, so that could act as proof if they all say the same thing. Either way, there's a good chance that Manderly will soon have Rickon, so the will will have little significance politically. It would probably give Jon respectability, though, so he could get the northern Lords on board with whatever he wants to do as Lord Commander. I think the bigger significance would be personal. I think Jon would be touched if he heard about the will and it would make him realise that Robb always considered him part of he pack, even if Jon always felt like an outsider.
  11. Whatever Karstark had done before became completely irrelevant when he murdered Tion and Willem. Robb had to kill him for 3 reasons: 1. Justice - Robb is the king and must be seen to dispense justice, else why are his lords following him and not Joffrey? The penalty for murder is death. This is especially important when you remember how Bran and Rickon were 'murdered'. 2. Honour - by executing Karstark, Robb makes it very clear the murders were not by his orders. Otherwise, why should anyone ever believe that Robb will keep his prisoners safe (and why should they reciprocate)? Someone who has recently broken an oath cannot afford another stain on their honour. 3. Control - Robb is still only 16. If he doesn't execute Karstark, his men will take it as a sign of weakness and will take it as an invitation to do whatever they like. To Jon's Queen Consort: all Cat did was give birth to him? Really?
  12. So, you are equating murdering child prisoners with releasing a prisoner and breaking an oath of betrothal? Please tell me you don't work in the justice system.
  13. I'm not entirely sure what we're supposed to be discussing here - Robb's mistakes in general or specifically the Westerling marriage? As the former has been done to death, I'll focus on the latter. I think the way we're supposed to read it is that Sybelle Spicer was in it from the beginning and 'pushed' Jeyne towards Robb. The evidence for this is that Jaime asks Jeyne whether she's pregnant - if the moon tea had been the only part of the plan, then why on earth would Jaime ask her this? However, it's clear that Jeyne, Raynald and Rollam weren't in on it. I don't think it's strange that Jeyne nursed him - Robb was a king, so could hardly be nursed by a common servant. The strange part is that they were left alone together. To me, this is one of the (too many) plot points that doesn't work. The idea that Tywin Lannister can dictate who goes into Robb's bed beggars belief (as does Rodrik Cassel deciding to leave Winterfell undefended). It only works because of a series of flukes. Without Robb's injury or his brothers 'deaths', it doesn't happen. Not to mention the fact that Tywin was wrong when he said "Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter and Robb Stark is his father's son." Jeyne is nothing like her mother - she slept with Robb because she wanted to/wanted to comfort him, not because she wanted a crown. Robb is like Ned in terms of morals and principles, so yes he married Jeyne, but he's not like Ned in terms of personality. Tywin was probably thinking that even the honourable Lord Eddard fathered a bastard while at war, so his son will be no different but we know that Jon is not Ned's son. If Robb had been more like Ned, he would never have slept with Jeyne (but he's more passionate). In short, Tywin's plan should never have worked. It was a complete fluke and that just annoys me. It works if Robb was given a love potion but that's just not as interesting a story. Human emotions causing people to make mistakes makes for a much better story than someone's actions being dictated by magic. For what it's worth, I think Robb's biggest mistakes were letting Theon go and giving Roose Bolton command of his foot. Most of his other problems stemmed from these 2 things. Of the OP's list, killing Karstark was not a mistake. Not punishing Catelyn angered Karstark but he was a loose cannon anyway. It didn't bother any of his other lords, so I wouldn't count that as a mistake either. As a side note, why is it that the only topic people discuss about Robb is 'what mistakes did he make' (to which the answer is apparently everything he did) or 'who should he have married'? Why not try to understand why Robb did what he did, what his realistic options were, how he must have been feeling, instead of just criticising him blindly? He's a largely overlooked character, which I think is a shame because GRRM wrote him really well (as he does all his characters).
  14. Assuming Wot5K never happens, I'm pretty sure Ned would have chosen a northern girl for Robb. Partly because Ned had no southern ambitions, partly because a northern marriage was due after Brandon's, Lyanna's and Sansa's betrothals (and even Rickard married his own cousin and not a bannerman's daughter). I see 3 likely candidates: Wylla Manderley - most likely. The Manderleys are the most powerful bannermen, so it's a good idea to keep them sweet. I can also see Cat favouring this match for political reasons. Wynafryd is heiress, so best avoided and Wylla is closer to Robb's age anyway. Meera Reed - Ned might have wanted to reward his good friend Howland Reed, although this might have got awkward if/when Jojen died. Lyanna Mormont (or whichever one is closest to Robb's age) - Ned might have felt this necessary to smooth over the Jorah affair, although the Mormonts don't seem to hold that against the Starks. And I can't see Cat being happy with her son marrying someone whose father is unknown (and most likely not Lady Maege's husband). Just think of the children, though, with two skinchanger parents!
  15. So what you're saying is that if a person can't be a monarch, then their life is pointless and they might as well kill themselves? Interesting. Dany can live a perfectly full life without becoming Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and without having children. She wouldn't be giving up her rights - she has no right to the Iron Throne, she only has a claim. She does not have to pursue that claim. Stannis is currently the rightful king, so if Shireen were to accidentally get burned, then he would have to name an heir but naming an heir is a risky business with no guarantee of a smooth transition. Dany could name an heir, yes, but she does not have to take that risk, she does not have to put herself (and Westeros) in that position.
  16. I'm not expecting Dany to name an heir. I'm expecting her to not attempt to conquer Westeros when she has no heir. A queen needs an heir just as much as a king does. You're right, though, that her situation is different from Robb's. Robb had heirs when he started his campaign (and was already recognised as ruler of the North) and only found himself apparently heirless when it was too late to turn back. Dany does not have to start a pointless campaign. If she dies during her conquest then it will all have been for nothing - scores of people would have died for nothing. Even if she wins, there would just be another war when she dies if she is indeed barren and has no other blood relatives. How can you think that's a sensible idea?
  17. How is this even a question? How could his seat be anything but Winterfell? Firstly, Winterfell is his by right, no other castle is. Secondly, he has to rule from Winterfell to reinforce his legitimacy - all the other Kings in the North ruled from Winterfell. I imagine he would hold court at Riverrun when visiting the riverlands, though. After all, this is what he does during the Wot5K.
  18. The OP makes a very good point. To be fair to Dany, I don't know that she believes she's barren. I think that she suspects/fears it but still has some doubt/hope. However, she certainly should not be considering conquering Westeros without an heir. She would cause an awful lot of death and destruction to claim the throne ( if she even succeeds) only for the realm to descend into civil war again upon her death. Civil war broke out when Aegon the Unworthy and Robert Baratheon died because they had no clear heir, the same things happened on smaller scales on the Hornwood lands and on the Iron Islands. This does not make her selfish, though. We're in her head - she hasn't thought about it. If she had thought about it and decided she didn't care, then that would make her selfish. The fact that she hasn't even considered it just makes her irresponsible. And for those of you arguing that she's too young to be thinking about this: many people die young in Westeros. Robb Stark was 16 when he died, yet he made a will. Sure, it didn't help, but at least he was thinking about it. This is a character flaw in Dany, I don't know why people can't just admit it. If the characters were perfect they wouldn't be interesting. Who can relate to a perfect character? And there's still time for her to reconsider.
  19. Stannis refusing to ally with Robb because he thinks Robb is trying to steal half his kingdom when he knows full well that Robb believes Joffrey to be the true king and Joffrey just killed his father. Ned trusting Littlefinger with an important task when he knows Littlefinger is not trustworthy. Tyrion trusting Littlefinger with an important task when he knows Littlefinger is not trustworthy. Tywin trusting Littlefinger with an important task when he knows Littlefinger is not trustworthy. Ser Rodrik leaving Winterfell and the Princes undefended. The Freys creating blood feuds with every House in the North and Riverlands when their castle lies right in the middle of the two regions.
  20. You mean they can't unelect him because it hasn't been done before. There's a first time for everything. Murdering your Lord Commanders when you're not happy with them is not the way to go. Bowen Marsh could have improved the Watch by setting a precedent. As I said, Jon was elected, he wasn't a king or Lord chosen by God, so there's no reason why this couldn't work. Even if it doesn't succeed in unelecting Jon, it would at least make him realise that he can't continue to do whatever he wants to do. I get what you say about mutiny but if Marsh had enough men supporting him then Jon is powerless to act. He can't just keep killing people who disagree with him, he would have to listen.
  21. Not true. If Stannis takes King's Landing and kills Joffrey then the Tyrell alliance is off. Especially when you consider that Tywin would have to return West to deal with the Starks with an uncertain outcome. There is no way the Tyrells are going to besiege a sitting king on their own with no promise of a reward/pardon.
  22. Murder is never justified and I can't believe people are trying to justify it. The Night's Watch is a democratic organisation; Jon is not a lord or a king chosen by god, he is a commander elected by the men of the Night's Watch. They can unelect him. If they truly believe that he is working against the Night's Watch's principles, they would be justified in arresting him and calling for a trial/new election involving all of the Night's Watch. If they believe he broke his oath, then they would also be justified in executing him in the proper fashion (after the trial/new election with majority Watch approval). What they did was murder, which is not right on any count, nor is it in the Watch's benefit.
  23. If Stannis manages to take King's Landing before Tywin and the Tyrells get there, then everything changes. Stannis has 20,000 men. Tywin cannot storm KL, at least not without losing a considerable portion of his men and he absolutely cannot afford to do that. Stannis would execute Joffrey, which means the Tyrell deal is off. The Lannisters would be relying on Ironhand's men getting Tommen to Tywin. The deal with the Tyrells could then maybe be reestablished but there's a good chance that the Tyrells will lose their nerve, seeing as the Lannisters have lost King's Landing and still have the Starks raiding the westerlands. Tywin will probably have to abandon King's Landing entirely and head west, or his men might start deserting him to defend their homes. Don't underestimate the power of holding the Iron Throne. Stannis would now be considered the legitimate king and Tommen the rebel. Robb could make a deal with Stannis. Doran won't oppose him. The Stormlands will be completely under his control. He might even be able to get the Vale to recognise and fight for him (although this may mean putting someone other than Lysa Arryn in control). It's unlikely that the Tyrells will stick with the Lannisters after that - they may even try to make a deal with Stannis. Basically, the Lannisters are pretty screwed in this scenario, and Stannis holds the Iron Throne (at least for a time).
  24. I can't imagine Robb's will having any effect on Jon, except giving him the Stark name i.e. giving him more credibility amongst the northern lords. But this may or may not be rendered irrelevant anyway when it's revealed his father was Rhaegar. It probably just serves as some motivation for Glover and Mormont to continue fighting for the Starks, as they may or may not know that Bran and Rickon are alive. Dead men can't become kings, not even walking dead men (although a walking dead man could probably become the second Night's King if he wanted to).
  25. The highborn would all be horrified that the world is no longer ruled (entirely) by nobles.