Gold in ASOIAF a Negative?

[Fire Eater]

I would like to thank Newstar for inspiring the idea for this thread. I have started this thread to look at the connotations associated with gold, mainly deceit and betrayal. To start gold is heavily associated with the Lannisters, a house divided by lies and backstabbing, and honor being little regarded.

The golden child had grown into a vain, foolish greedy woman

Kevan's description of Cersei

Jaime slipped through the king's door, clad in his golden armor

Jaime as he is going into the throne room to kill Aerys with a golden sword, betraying his vows as well as king. After he loses his hand, he stops wearing the gold armor and dons his white armor again, symbolizing his metamorphosis.

Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds

The crowns of Cersei's children are obtained through the deception about being Robert's children.

Our word is good as gold

This is the motto of the GC which is mentioned right after it is reported they had broken a contract.

his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold

Illyrio has a gold beard, and he has likely been deceiving Viserys and Dany for a while now. He has also deceived Connington into believing he is helping Rhaegar's son.

Lies and Arbor gold

What LF tells Sansa, and as has been pointed out multiple times, Arbor gold is connected to lies and deceit. No wonder it has become Cersei's favorite drink.

Gold for iron

Jaqen gives Pate a golden dragon in exchange for the iron key he stole from Archmaester Walgrave, and Jaqen betrays Pate at the same time with the gold coin being poisoned.

He cast his lot with Roose Bolton long ago for gold, the promise of a pardon and poor Harry's head

Arnolf's betrayal of the main branch of House Karstark and plot to betray Stannis.

We also all know Viserys's crown of gold. The goldcloaks of KL are commanded by Slynt, and riddled with corruption, and during ACoK it became filled with drunks, brutes and cravens.

[Das_Boof]

Hmm, very similar to the light is only blinding thread. I like this one slightly more, but I love the Lannisters so it's kind of hard for me.

[FaSome]

Hmmm so "gold" relates to betrayal and conspiracy. Interesting....

"Beneath the gold, the bitter steel"

"Beneath the lies, a Blackfyre" I like it!

[MasterJack]

I find those codes to be very interesting but I cant help but think GRRM is wasting his time with this where only some dozen of smart readers will find.

about the OP, good catch, now try to find its opposite. white? bronze? Iron?('cause we know stannis is good. :P)

[J. Stargaryen]

I find those codes to be very interesting but I cant help but think GRRM is wasting his time with this where only some dozen of smart readers will find.

about the OP, good catch, now try to find its opposite. white? bronze? Iron?('cause we know stannis is good. :P)

Silver.

I meant to have a look at gold and silver myself, but haven't gotten to it yet.

[MasterJack]

Silver.

I meant to have a look at gold and silver myself, but haven't gotten to it yet.

Tysha was paid with an hundred silver coins after being raped...oh and 1 golden dragon if i remember. :P

[Lady Arya's Song]

I have been keeping track of characters who GRRM specifically states they are wearing cloth-of-gold. Written exactly like that. Other characters might be mentioned as wearing gold..but if its written as cloth-of-gold..well hmm

Below is the running tab I have kept on these characters.

Renly cloth-of-gold dead

Ser Aaron Santagar cloth-of-gold dead

Janos Slynt cloth-of-gold dead

Lord Tywin cloth-of-gold dead

Prince Joffrey cloth-of-gold dead

Shae cloth-of-gold dead

Dareon cape of cloth-of-gold dead

Characters who are still alive but have been marked with cloth-of-gold clothing or items.

Tommen cloth-of-gold

Lady Olenna Tyrell cloth-of-gold

Cersei cloth-of-gold

Ser Adam Marbrand cloth-of-gold

Margaery Tyrell cloth-of-gold

Victarion cloth-of-gold cape

Crow's Eye cloth-of-gold tent

Little Lady Ermersande gown cloth-of-gold

The High Septon but he sold all the cloth-of-gold they owned..so this could nullify the curse of cloth-of-gold if there truly is one.

Jaime Lannister doublet cloth-of-gold

Davos has a written thing a ribbon a thing from Stannis a black velvet ribbon trimmed with cloth-of-gold and bearing three seals. Could indicate this will never be fully realized.

Stannis wore grey plate, a fur trimmed cloak of cloth-of-gold.

So what am I suggesting? There are many characters who wear gold or gold and silver but only these particular characters are wearing or are associated with cloth-of-gold.

Each character has other clues regarding their possible fate in the next two books..but I have noticed this pattern and I keep a running talley. Make of it what you will or not. :cool4:

[LordStoneheart]

don't forget, hands of gold are always cold but a woman's hands are warm...

[Better_off_Ned]

Gold is money in ASOIAF, much as in most of our world's history.

It's mentioned frequently, because it is ever present. One pays for everything with Gold or Silver.

Look hard enough, and you'll find plenty of positive references to gold as well. People buy food with it! Food is good! Jon ensures Sam has gold to make the trip to the Citadel! Gold is friendship! Drago kills viserys with gold, and Viserys was a prick! Gold is Justice!

[Ragnorak]

I think it needs further refinement with a context or some other discriminating factor. Lady Arya's Song has a good example. Littlefinger prefers silver-- how is that different from the gold associations here? Greed is definitely a negative character trait that often leads to an ill fate. This is a medieval economy where land was typically the staple of wealth and power. Ser Bonifer Hasty offers land to anyone in Harrenhal who enters his service and more land when they take a wife and yet more when they have children. Gregor's men look down on the offer and want gold. I can't think of enough examples to make a case for a land vs. gold theme, but I think something of that sort is needed to make the symbolism case-- a more specific context for gold or gold as a choice over something else maybe. Brienne puts gold coins in Nimble Dick's grave and that seems to be a rather sincere scene. Brown Ben Plumm has his own lessons about gold with the gold he found on the sellsword corpse. That really isn't about deception. It is about "betrayal" but betrayal for gold is the opposite of the lesson. There are just too many gold references for a blanket meaning without some other discriminating factor.

[Fire Eater]

@ Lady Arya's Song

Homeless Harry has a cloth-of-gold tent as well. Margaery wearing cloth-of-gold could be related to her track record with husbands. Olenna's and Cersei's husbands are also dead, and I also see them both marked for death. Lady Hayford's husband, Tyrek, is likely dead.

All the men alive you mentioned wearing cloth-of-gold I have already seen marked for death.

I think it needs further refinement with a context or some other discriminating factor. Lady Arya's Song has a good example. Littlefinger prefers silver

Like I said, the connotations with gold can have more than one meaning. LF preferring silver could be a reference to the silver trout of House Tully, and silver is also associated with the Starks to some degree (I'll elaborate on that later); it could be a way of saying he prefers Catelyn Tully and Sansa Stark. As for the land vs. gold theme, Asha presents the gold of WF, which is turnips.

[Lady Arya's Song]

FireEater I agree

The story itself has marked many with a possible death in the future books based on many clues and the story movement. All I was doing was making note of the fact that some of the characters are wearing cloth-of-gold. There are other characters whom I suspect will die and they are written as wearing gold or gold and maroon etc etc. The difference is how GRRM writes about their raiment. I forgot to mention that Homeless Harry had the tent of cloth-of-gold but I also had him marked. :) I just found it interesting that their garments were described in that matter. Funnily enough Queen Selyse is never written wearing cloth-of-gold and believe me I was rather hoping she would be..

[Lummel]

I think gold and silver as money have a negative connotation in the story and suggest a commodification of values. It suggests a world of commerce in which everything can be bought, love, loyalty or service which is opposed to a traditional world in which nothing can be bought but everything has to be earned through service, devotion or just occasionally claimed through blood relationships.

That though is going to be different to cloth of gold or gold as a luxury product, which I guess has more to do is displaying wealth and power, conspicuous consumption and all that. There are afterall characters who don't wear cloth of gold who also get to die.

[Ragnorak]

Like I said, the connotations with gold can have more than one meaning. LF preferring silver could be a reference to the silver trout of House Tully, and silver is also associated with the Starks to some degree (I'll elaborate on that later); it could be a way of saying he prefers Catelyn Tully and Sansa Stark. As for the land vs. gold theme, Asha presents the gold of WF, which is turnips.

Nice catch with Asha. Even Euron has difficulty getting them to prefer real dragons to gold ones later just like they shun Asha's gold.

My intent was not to knock your endeavor. There are just a great deal of gold references-- I counted over a hundred "gold" mentions in Clash before even getting halfway through. At that rate there would be over a thousand in the series so far. There are definitely more global themes like Lummel mentions with the commodification of values or gold adornments as the trappings of power. There's probably a gilded theme too though I haven't looked for it specifically. I just meant that if the goal was to come up with something as specific as "lies and Arbor Gold" or boars and regime change the gold scope would probably have to be narrowed by some context or associated references. Gold exchanges with sellswords, gold and promises, characters with gold rings, or something along those lines.

[Lyse Stark]

I have been keeping track of characters who GRRM specifically states they are wearing cloth-of-gold. Written exactly like that. Other characters might be mentioned as wearing gold..but if its written as cloth-of-gold..well hmm

Below is the running tab I have kept on these characters.

Renly cloth-of-gold dead

Ser Aaron Santagar cloth-of-gold dead

Janos Slynt cloth-of-gold dead

Lord Tywin cloth-of-gold dead

Prince Joffrey cloth-of-gold dead

Shae cloth-of-gold dead

Dareon cape of cloth-of-gold dead

Characters who are still alive but have been marked with cloth-of-gold clothing or items.

Tommen cloth-of-gold

Lady Olenna Tyrell cloth-of-gold

Cersei cloth-of-gold

Ser Adam Marbrand cloth-of-gold

Margaery Tyrell cloth-of-gold

Victarion cloth-of-gold cape

Crow's Eye cloth-of-gold tent

Little Lady Ermersande gown cloth-of-gold

The High Septon but he sold all the cloth-of-gold they owned..so this could nullify the curse of cloth-of-gold if there truly is one.

Jaime Lannister doublet cloth-of-gold

Davos has a written thing a ribbon a thing from Stannis a black velvet ribbon trimmed with cloth-of-gold and bearing three seals. Could indicate this will never be fully realized.

Stannis wore grey plate, a fur trimmed cloak of cloth-of-gold.

So what am I suggesting? There are many characters who wear gold or gold and silver but only these particular characters are wearing or are associated with cloth-of-gold.

Each character has other clues regarding their possible fate in the next two books..but I have noticed this pattern and I keep a running talley. Make of it what you will or not. :cool4:

Interesting pattern. I can see most of them dead, especially Cersei and Tommen.

[Vaxis]

I really love these patterns, very useful for predictions. Though all that has been said about gold has been said, it's also worth noting the significance of other metals:

Silver: associated with healing in both real life and by a maesters chain. Also much loved by Littlefinger since he was a boy, whereas no one else in Westeros ever seems to wear it at all.

Bronze: associated with things that are ancient and traditional, by the bronze runic armor of House Royce, the bronze in Robbs crown, and the bronze used by the Thenns. Bronze was used by the First Men, and was worked long before Steel ever was.

Iron: associated with warcraft and justice. Obviously the Iron Throne. Also on Robbs crown. Often used to describe hard and unyielding men such as Stannis. Black iron is always viewed as apart from refined steel. It's use in weapons was said to be introduced to the Andals by the Rhoynar. The Braavosi use iron coins.

Valyrian Steel: too much to say about this one!

[Fire Eater]

Tonight it was rich black velvet with high leather boots and a wide belt with a silver buckle. A heavy silver chain was looped around his neck

A description of Benjen's wardrobe

He pulled the heavy silver Hand clasp from his pocket

As Hand, Ned simply wore a silver Hand clasp compared to the gold chain

And of course the extra silver you [Catelyn] were so kind to promise

silver bracelets on her [sansa's] wrists

Sansa wore a gown of silvery satin

His [bran's] surcoat was new, dark grey wool with silver buttons and a heavy silver pin

The Starks are more associated with silver, which fits their dichotomy with the Lannisters who are associated with gold. Of course they aren't the only family who has associations with silver.

And for my silver prince.

Connington thinking of Rhaegar

The red priest outside seemed to think Volantis should fight for this silver queen

Dany is referred to as the silver queen throughout ADwD, and once in AFfC, and her horse is her silver.

[EstEst]

I too tried to find something about magic properties of silver in ASoIaF, but found only this definite statement:

(Moqorro to Victarion, ADwD)

"I will heal this. I will need a blade. Silver would be best, but iron will serve."

There also was some gibberish about Sansa's silver hair net being magic, cannot find the quote right now. But I'm almost sure that doesn't count, since Ser Dontos had other reasons to wish Sansa wearing this net.

Apart from this, and some occasional mentions like Fire Eater listed above ^^ I found nothing particular.

And some horse was named Quicksilver, which is not silver at all. :-))

[Old-Growth]

The westlands have gold mines and the north has silver mines (near white harbor). It's more than that, to be sure, but we might as well start with the prosaic.