Weakest Arc/Plot Device/POV in your opinion?

[Cynthia Snow]

I thought that Jorah just happening to run into Tyrion was a huge cop-out. Yes, Catelyn running into Tyrion at the Inn at the Crossroads was unlikely, but they were traveling on the same road (and the primary means of North-South travel in Westeros) in opposite directions, so it make sense. However, I live in the US, and I know a quite a few people in Europe. The odds of me traveling to Europe and going to a random restaurant and randomly running into someone I know are ridiculously small. Deus ex machina at its finest.

[Lasicka]

The Dumbhair POVs. Why couldn´t the kingsmoot be told from someone else´s POV, like the Reader for example?

[Grave Rob]

pate's chapter was also to show us there's a FM in the citadel...

Which I dont care about at all. There is FM all over westeros for all we know. We could have learned about the FM when he comes into play through Sams POV.

I thought that Jorah just happening to run into Tyrion was a huge cop-out. Yes, Catelyn running into Tyrion at the Inn at the Crossroads was unlikely, but they were traveling on the same road (and the primary means of North-South travel in Westeros) in opposite directions, so it make sense. However, I live in the US, and I know a quite a few people in Europe. The odds of me traveling to Europe and going to a random restaurant and randomly running into someone I know are ridiculously small. Deus ex machina at its finest.

I've been on the road for the last 2 years. (european traveling in Asia&australia) and I guarantee that it happens more frequently than you think. :D

Am I really the only one who hates Sam's invincible plot shield? 5 books in and ser Piggy doesnt have so much as a black eye to show for it. Ranging north of the wall? No probs, he happens to randomly have the one item that can defeat the others on him. Stroll down the streets of Braavos? No worries, the only other POV character in the city is there to randomly feel like helping him. Long sea voyage plagued by pirates? Nothing to worry about, the crew of the random ship he got on are really competent. Go to citadel where you are likely be killed for knowing what you know? First person he runs into is one of the only people who would help him.

I really want Sam to endure at least a bit of physical pain and actualy hardship (other than "its really cold/there is only oats to eat/my dad is really mean"). Its only fair to the other POV characters.

[The Frosted King]

Weakest in terms of plausibility and actual "characterization that makes sense" for me is the entire Ironborn northern excursion.

Balon pops up because Robb sends Theon there with the best offer he's gonna get, Balon says no, there is more stupidity to be had elsewhere, Theon goes, Rodrik dunces, Balon writes a letter, is soundly rejected, falls off a bridge and dies.

The whole point of that entire thread was to doom the Starks brightest hope, get the youngest moving on their separate paths and bring Theon to his point of bleakness, while also giving him a nickname in Turncloak.

I don't mind the moves, just the terrible characterisation that enabled it.

Asha goes from daddy's girl in ACOK to a longsuffering woman with an idiot father in AFFC?

Balon is only seen once, heard from twice and then killed offpage via a raven.

I respect the pathos Martin was mining when he wrote it, but it was entirely too plot driven for my taste.

[Saint Saga]

-Briene in AFFC,because her chapters were too long,and we know her quest was futile.But her POV had some good moments like her last battle before meeting UnCat.

-In general Danny's chapters not envolving magic or dragons (the funeral pyre,house on undying,and Drogon onslaught in the arena were amazing).The Mereen plot was booring,I only come to like it when she left the city,with Barristan's POV.

A Feast for crows and A dance of Dragons should really be re-edited in one book.

[Rooseman]

Judging the arcs by how enjoyable you found them is totally okay.

But if we start judging their grand purpose in the story, we really should exclude those which haven't been concluded yet. If the conclusion to an arc seems obvious and cliche, how do we know that GRRM isn't playing with our expectations and planning to put a twist on it?

As to Maggy's prophecy, I like to think that she served Cersei a mixture of truth and lies. Her marrying Robert and only having children with Jaime was something that Maggy has foreseen which would have happened anyway. But I believe, that the young queen to cast her down, as well as the valonqar are caused by Cersei's belief in the prophecy. Yes, I think Margaery is the young queen. Cersei's downfall was only because she tried to get rid of her. And if Jaime or Tyrion or whoever are going to kill her, I think the cause of that event can be traced back to something she did because she tried to prevent the prophecy.

As Marwyn puts it so beautifully and eloquently, prophecy is like a woman who takes your cock in her mouth, and when you think "Oh well, that's nice" she bites down and your moans turn to screams. That's the nature of prophecy.

[Das_Boof]

if you haven't read the whole series you really shouldn't be here. There are spoilers everywhere!

So far I've been pretty good about avoiding spoilers...

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Weakest PoV imho is probably Areo Hotah. He's the closest we'll ever get to a sentient brick wall.

Weakest plot device: fucking Maggi.

Maggi the Frog is a pointless addition to cartoonise Cersei by turning her paranoia upto eleven when there was no need for that extra push. Consider: she believes that her younger brother murdered her firstborn son and her father. Furthermore she has evidence that her son's wife's family probably had a hand in this-why does she or the reader need a stupid prophecy to further unhinge her?

Furthermore, pre-Feast the Cersei-Tyrion relationship was toxically complex: she held him responsible for the death of their mother but did not outright hate him-she is furious when Cat kidnaps him, yells at Blount when he disobeyed Tyrion, and shows glimmers of some affection throughout Clash.

Then Maggi comes along and goes all "Nope! there's no nuance here-she's always hated and feared him since she was ten." Cripes.

And there's the prophecy itself-until another younger and more beautiful than you-excuse me, but when did this turn into Snow White? Who wants to bet that next book, she has Qyburn concoct a poison peach for Margery?

I 100% agree with your post, Maggi is a fail

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

I thought that Jorah just happening to run into Tyrion was a huge cop-out. Yes, Catelyn running into Tyrion at the Inn at the Crossroads was unlikely, but they were traveling on the same road (and the primary means of North-South travel in Westeros) in opposite directions, so it make sense. However, I live in the US, and I know a quite a few people in Europe. The odds of me traveling to Europe and going to a random restaurant and randomly running into someone I know are ridiculously small. Deus ex machina at its finest.

Yes, this is the one for me as well.

[David Selig]

As to Maggy's prophecy, I like to think that she served Cersei a mixture of truth and lies. Her marrying Robert and only having children with Jaime was something that Maggy has foreseen which would have happened anyway. But I believe, that the young queen to cast her down, as well as the valonqar are caused by Cersei's belief in the prophecy. Yes, I think Margaery is the young queen. Cersei's downfall was only because she tried to get rid of her. And if Jaime or Tyrion or whoever are going to kill her, I think the cause of that event can be traced back to something she did because she tried to prevent the prophecy.

Self-fullfilling prophesies used this way is really lazy writing and very annoying to me. Someone gets obsessed about the prophecy, tries for years to avoid it, yet causes it to happen through his attempts to avoid it. That was already a cliche in ancient Greek literature and has been way overused in modern fantasy. Even the wording of the Maggi prophecy here is straight out of Snow White.

[SeanF]

I'm fine with Maggi the Frog. It makes me a little more sympathetic to Cersei, having this Sword of Damocles hanging over her for years.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I'm fine with Maggi the Frog. It makes me a little more sympathetic to Cersei, having this Sword of Damocles hanging over her for years.

But it dumbs down her character even more.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Cersei's whole arc is the weakest in my opinion.

In addition to the Maggi thing.

Her downfall happens really quickly, she is one of the few characters that would have benefited from the 5 year gap.

In one book she turns into one of the dumbest characters, which I find odd for someone that was able to hide her bastard children as trueborns for quite a long time.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm fine with Maggi the Frog. It makes me a little more sympathetic to Cersei, having this Sword of Damocles hanging over her for years.

But we don't see that. Cersei pre-Feast is not hyper paranoid about Tyrion and for someone who believes he's going to kill her, she sure doesn't try to get rid of him or even keep her children away from him.

[SeanF]

But we don't see that. Cersei pre-Feast is not hyper paranoid about Tyrion and for someone who believes he's going to kill her, she sure doesn't try to get rid of him or even keep her children away from him.

There is intense dislike between them, from the first time we see them together. They do, just about, manage a working relationship in ACOK, in the face of a common enemy, Stannis. They revert to intense dislike in a ASOS.

My own view is that Cersei had half-forgotten the prophecy until Joffrey and her father were murdered. Suddenly, she's on her own, and sick with fear for herself and her children.

[SeanF]

Cersei's whole arc is the weakest in my opinion.

In addition to the Maggi thing.

Her downfall happens really quickly, she is one of the few characters that would have benefited from the 5 year gap.

In one book she turns into one of the dumbest characters, which I find odd for someone that was able to hide her bastard children as trueborns for quite a long time.

I agree about the five year gap. Cersei's government should take years, rather than months, to fall apart.

However, I see nothing implausible about a reasonably competent person failing in the top job. It happens all the time in real life.

[yolkboy]

I'm fine with Maggi the Frog. It makes me a little more sympathetic to Cersei, having this Sword of Damocles hanging over her for years.

I like Maggi too, I don't see the problem. It's a intriguing part of Cersei's story.

[Jasta11]

-Brienne's excursion was really pointless. Yes, yes, worldbuilding and all that jazz, but it should never happen at the expense of the plot. Not only that, but the reader knows it's completely pointless, and it ends in yet another cliffhanger to boot. At least the fight at the inn was good.

-Littlefinger in general is a weak character to me. His continued survival defies the odds, his plans just happen to always work despite being completely random, and no one thinks to mistrust a guy who has shown to be utterly untrsutworthy. The worst part is when Tyrion, a pretty vindicative character, seems to simply forget it was Baelish's lie to Catelyn that resulted in his humiliation and imprisonment. And to top it off, old Petyr basically engineers continent-wide civil war because he was friendzoned? That's the excuse? Sheesh. Talk about a guy who exists to advance the plot.

-And yeah, Maggie the Frog was a weak development. I dislike prophecies in general, too easy for a writer to use, But GRRM usually keeps them mysterious enough that I'm not too bothered (Patchface is a great example of well-used prophecies). But that one is straight out of a fairy tale, complete with ye olde ''it's self- fulfilling because she's too obsessed by it, oh the aesop!'' thing we've seen half a million bloody times. I don't think it was that big of a character derailment for Cercei, as she already was a barely disguised smug bitch even beforehand, but it did provide an all-too convenient excuse for her villainy and coincided with her stupidity kicking into overdrive.

[ductastic]

Maggy :bang:

Totally agree. I don't like Cersei but this damn "prophecy" ruined at least half of her storyline and made her look like some evil queen.

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

Benjen's arc.....(or lack thereof)