So...did Cat know she was starting a war?

[James Arryn]

When she kidnaped Tyrion, do you believe she could reasonably have known or in fact did know that she was very probably starting a war?

I say she did. Based on 2 points, mostly.

1) When she kidnapped him, she lied loudly about where she was going because she knew that Lannister forces or similar would mount an armed pursuit of her across her father's lands...an almost certain act of war...and wanted to mislead them.

2) Even if whoever was nearest took the bait and missed them, there was every reason to fear that Tywin Lannister would march his armies East when he heard, and Cat knew this.

So, that's my take. Do you agree, or disagree?

[LordStoneheart]

Well since she didn't start a war I don't think she knew

[James Arryn]

Well since she didn't start a war I don't think she knew

What? Tywin did send forces East as a result. What's in dispute?

[TalalOfDorne]

She knew that she would be putting her kids life in possible danger if she didnt.

And given the fact that she had good reason to believe the Lannisters were conspiring against her, it was ok IMO to ARREST him. And her intent to take him to KL only affirs that there was some legality in what she was doing.

The fact that Tywin had a hissy-fit is on him and not her. Even he knew that what he was doing wasnt legal.

Cat was in the middle of two difficult choices and she did the right thing. And the war was going to start regardless of her actions.

ETA: Hasnt this topic been done to death already?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

To her knowledge, the war had already started several months earlier.

[David Selig]

What? Tywin did send forces East as a result. What's in dispute?

So Tywin started the war, not her.

More importantly, the war started openly only after Robert died. Even Tywin wasn't arrogant and dumb enough to start an open full scale war while the king was alive.

[LordStoneheart]

What? Tywin did send forces East as a result. What's in dispute?

Well... let's go over that again...

Tywin did send forces East as a result.

I recall no one dying due to Tyrion's arrest, save hilltribesmen who attacked first. But Tywin started the first battles even if it wasn't a declaration of war.

Honestly, I don't understand why Tywin's atrocious actions are justified but Catelyn's "started a war."

[The Sleeper]

Yes,it was among the possible consequences of her action she could reasonably anticipate. After all, she and Ned had already discussed the possibility. The war, of course did not begin in earnest until quite a few skirmishes, and raids. It would be more accurate to describe it as one of the steps towards escalation.

[James Arryn]

She knew that she would be putting her kids life in possible danger if she didnt.

And given the fact that she had good reason to believe the Lannisters were conspiring against her, it was ok IMO to ARREST him. And her intent to take him to KL only affirs that there was some legality in what she was doing.

Not an arrest. ( when asked directly if she had the authority, GRRM demurred and said she might have come closer if it had been in the North.) Hence, a kidnapping. The wiki agrees.

And her avowed intent was not KL, but Winterfell, where she WOULD have had authority. And her actual destination was the Vale.

The fact that Tywin had a hissy-fit is on him and not her.

Not really. As shown, she was not operating in the clear, and a Tywin attack was the probable repercussion.

So if you choose to act outside the law, knowing war will likely result, and it does...that's on you?

Even he knew that what he was doing wasnt legal.

Who knew what?

Cat was in the middle of two difficult choices and she did the right thing.

ETA: Hasnt this topic been done to death already?

I'm not asking if you think it was right to knowingly start a war, I'm asking if it's probable that she did know. I think it's clear she did.

[James Arryn]

So Tywin started the war, not her.

More importantly, the war started openly only after Robert died. Even Tywin wasn't arrogant and dumb enough to start an open full scale war while the king was alive.

Wait. Why is it on Tywin, again? She acted outside her remit for her family, and as a result Tywin acted out of his remit for his.

But more to the point, if we can look back and give Rhaegar the knowledge that running off with..no, scratch that...assume kidnapping for a neater comparison...that kidnapping Lyanna would probably start a war,and he does it anyway...who started the war? Jon Arryn?

[redtree]

If she didn't know that she's more of an airhead than i think of her

Cat took member of liege lord's main line. what did she exactly expect ? That his father would sit idly in his castle ?

[redtree]

Wait. Why is it on Tywin, again? She acted outside her remit for her family, and as a result Tywin acted out of his remit for his.

But more to the point, if we can look back and give Rhaegar the knowledge that running off with..no, scratch that...assume kidnapping for a neater comparison...that kidnapping Lyanna would probably start a war,and he does it anyway...who started the war? Jon Arryn?

Exactly this, you light a match and surprise that there's a fire ? ridiculous

Tywin is reacted to what she has done. I'm not justifying how he reacted but understand why he did

[James Arryn]

Well... let's go over that again...

I recall no one dying due to Tyrion's arrest, save hilltribesmen who attacked first.

A) Only as a result of his own wit, money, and luck. His life was in serious danger at least 3 times.

2) Tywin didn't know that. For all he knew, Tyrion was dead.

C) What does this have to do with anything?

But Tywin started the first battles even if it wasn't a declaration of war.

Right, as mentioned both Cat and Tywin acted outside the law for their families. But Cat's came first and knowingly lead to Tywin's. You're saying she has no reasonable or moral blame for starting the conflict?

Honestly, I don't understand why Tywin's atrocious actions are justified but Catelyn's "started a war."

Where did I justify Tywin's actions?

[David Selig]

Wait. Why is it on Tywin, again? She acted outside her remit for her family, and as a result Tywin acted out of his remit for his.

Because he ordered his troops to invade and started the military actions. You know, what starting a war means.

But more to the point, if we can look back and give Rhaegar the knowledge that running off with..no, scratch that...assume kidnapping for a neater comparison...that kidnapping Lyanna would probably start a war,and he does it anyway...who started the war? Jon Arryn?

Of course. Though the assumption is incorrect, there wouldn't have been a war if brandon wasn't a moron and Aerys insane.

[fuem]

Seems weird tywin hates his imp but he goes to war over him for what reason because his a captive. In ASoS twyin would have glady watched his head roll even though he offered the black there's no way that would have happened Twyin was like the Biggist Bad arse EVER. The imp wasn't dead just being held by Lady Cat. So what does Twyin do his like righto war it is for what reasons who knows.

[The Sleeper]

Not an arrest. ( when asked directly if she had the authority, GRRM demurred and said she might have come closer if it had been in the North. Hence, a kidnapping. The wiki agrees.

And her avowed intent was not KL, but Winterfell, where she WOULD have had authority. And her actual destination was the Vale.

Not really. As shown, she was not operating in the clear, and a Tywin attack was the probable repercussion.

So if you choose to act outside the law, knowing war will likely result, and it does...that's on you?

Who knew what?

I'm not asking if you think it was right to knowingly start a war, I'm asking if it's probable that she did know. I think it's clear she did.

You make it sound as if it was a yes or no deal. For all she knew, it was equally s possible that having a hostage could help prevent the war.

And Martin's statement could well include practicalities as well as issues of jurisdiction. Yes, if she had arrested Tyrion in the north her action would have been far less ambiguous. That does not mean that arresting him in the Riverlands had no merit, whatsoever. It was for his arrest she called for at the inn and she was acting lord of Winter fell at the time.

Really, isolating this incident as the whole reason for the war does not work. And let's not forget the context that she had information from people she considered trustworthy that was a conspiracy against the king in which Tyrion was involved, and that conspiracy included the murder of Jon Arryn and two attempts on her son's life. These are issues that need to be addressed.

[Arya kiddin']

Not an arrest. ( when asked directly if she had the authority, GRRM demurred and said she might have come closer if it had been in the North.) Hence, a kidnapping. The wiki agrees.

And her avowed intent was not KL, but Winterfell, where she WOULD have had authority. And her actual destination was the Vale.

Not really. As shown, she was not operating in the clear, and a Tywin attack was the probable repercussion.

So if you choose to act outside the law, knowing war will likely result, and it does...that's on you?

Who knew what?

I'm not asking if you think it was right to knowingly start a war, I'm asking if it's probable that she did know. I think it's clear she did.

When you talk of authority and jurisdiction, you should take into account the fact that during the arrest she was in Riverlands, her father's territory and Vale was being ruled by her sister. she banked on their authority overthere, which I don't think is that big a deal. She thought she can trust her father and sister to see through what she had started.

Exactly this, you light a match and surprise that there's a fire ? ridiculous

Tywin is reacted to what she has done. I'm not justifying how he reacted but understand why he did

You might read what others have stated upthread already, the war was going to start anyway. The arrest merely meant the war will start now. It's seeds were planted by Baelish - he needed chaos in the realm to utilize it to his own means.

[JC Denton]

Neither Cat nor Tywin started the war ... thats on Jaime Lannister, along with Joffrey. If not for the assasination attempt, Cat would continue to believe it was an accident.

[James Arryn]

Because he ordered his troops to invade and started the military actions. You know, what starting a war means.

Being the first to 'invade and start military actions' is not the same as being the one who caused the War. For example, Gavrilo Princip is widely credited with being the trigger to cause WWI.

Cat acted outside the law, and knowing a war would likely result. How is this not her fault? Her choice endangered thousands. Her alternate choice endangered no one in fact, and only...her fsmily? Justice for Bran? And she chose the war one.

As did Tywin.

Of course.

Well, there we are then.

Though the assumption is incorrect, there wouldn't have been a war if brandon wasn't a moron and Aerys insane.

No, that's just the reality. The hypothetical assumes Rhaegar knows war is the result AND that it was a kidnapping. Brandon is just one of the things Rhaegar knows will likely happen if he kidnaps Lyanna in the hypothetical.

[The Sleeper]

Exactly this, you light a match and surprise that there's a fire ? ridiculous

Tywin is reacted to what she has done. I'm not justifying how he reacted but understand why he did

This works both ways. If you allow Tywin the excuse that he was reacting, you must allow the same for Catelyn. Only her reaction did not include an invasion.