So...did Cat know she was starting a war?

[Serwyn_MirrorShield]

So Tywin started the war, not her.

More importantly, the war started openly only after Robert died. Even Tywin wasn't arrogant and dumb enough to start an open full scale war while the king was alive.

Even before Robert's death; Gregor Clegane have already been released by Tywin to attack the river lands and put entire little towns to the torch. Ned sends Beric Dondarrion to stop him in the name of the King.

I know here are a lot of Cat' lovers, whom never wants to see anything where Cat could be blamed for. But yes, Cat did start the War by her actions and creates a lot of new problems in the process: The Kidnapping of Tyrion, going to the Eyre instead Winterfell, by sending ser Rodrik to winterfell as castellan instead of she herself to protect and care her own two litle boys, by negotiating the wed of the heir to the North to a mynor House (The Freys are a mynor house at that moment), by releasing Jaime for a promise, and even for being there in the middle of the war taking out authority from Robb and making Robb feels like a boy sometimes just for the need of feeling needed there.

[Serwyn_MirrorShield]

I don't think it was intended as a hate thread. That being said, I agree that the idea cats actions caused the war is silly. Cat not kidnapping tyrion doesn't change the incest, or lf and varys schemes. Not does it change Lysa framing the lannisters for killing Jon.

Yeah Varys schemes would lead to a war in the near future; that or Baelish schemes would too.

Yet, from the conversation between Ilirio and Varys when Arya was a fortuit witness, we know the war should not began so quickly because they needed more time for their plot to become succesful.

Cat is not to be blamed for the incest, or the varys schemes, or the alarming stupidity level of Viserys. but her sole action of kidnapping a Lannister did forces Tywin to do something for the honor of his house.

[SkaggCannibal]

You can't blame one single person for starting the WOT5K. There were many players manipulating others from the shadows.

This is a bit like asking what event caused the Pelopennesian War. No event did, and a whole series of events did. Each escalating action led towards war, rather than any one event causing war.

If it wasn't her, someone else would have started it. Also, keep in mind she was absolutely certain at the time (due to Littlefinger's trickery) that Tyrion was responsible for Bran's attempted assassination. Would you not have taken him in yourself, regardless of possible consequences? If anyone is to blame, it's Littlefinger- for poisoning Jon Arryn, manipulating Lysa and through her turning the Starks against the Lannisters and of course for the whole dagger buisness. I wonder if he has something against Tyrion... Why else give him the blame for this and Joffrey's poisoning?

Joffrey was the main instigator in the war, firstly by trying to have Bran murdered in his bed and secondly for taking off Ned Stark's head.

Neither Cat nor Jaime started a goddamn war. I don't know why this is even being debated.

Robert's death and Ned's beheading officially started the war.

Has anyone here read the Catnapping thread?? That's what made me realize how necessary her kidnapping of Tyrion was.

What was this War of Five Kings, if not a succession war? Every single act can be traced back to Jaime and Cersei and their huge treason of making illegitimate heirs to the throne. Without Jaime and Cersei's twincest, no one could've started this war. So that's why, I put the blame on them. Like they didn't know what the risks were...

I would also like to point out the difference between an instigator and a cause. Catnap, poisoning, beheading, lies of LF... those were all instigators. The cause of the war was the twincest and the successionproblems because of it.

[Whitering]

Well, I haven't read the thread, they should have grabbed Tyrion and taken him to King's Landing. If all justice flows from the King, that's where they should have gone. It may still have caused a conflict, but Robert would have been bloody pissed that someone sent an assassin into Winterfell, so who knows. Tywin may still have gone after her and Winterfell at some point because he was just like that but take Tyrion to the Vale was just completely wrong.

[LC Jaime Lannister]

What? Tywin did send forces East as a result. What's in dispute?

Tywin sending forces East means Tywin is starting a war. If you are talking about a catalyst, well that's much different.

[butterbumps!]

Let's talk about "stupid ideas" for a minute.

You know what is breath-takingly stupid? Tywin's bellicosity from the start of aGoT. He was ostensibly cornered 5 to 1 and yet he still decided to lash out. Here is the breakdown:

There are already 3 iron-clad alliances from the Rebellion era: Starks-Arryns- Tullys. Just before aGoT, Tywin learns that Arryn and Baratheon are going to cement a new marriage alliance (Sweet Robin/ Shireen + fostering). We know Tywin saw that writing on the wall because he tried to intervene and foster SR himself. Then Stannis leaves KL and is allegedly raising forces at Dragonstone. Then it looks like the Tyrells are getting in on this, as Renly plots to replace Cersei with Marg.

From Tywin's angle, it looks like no less than 5 Houses are teaming up to oust his daughter from KL. Given that it looks like a massive anti-Lannister conspiracy and that he'd be surrounded, one might say that the risk Tywin took in raising arms and seeking pride restoratives is monstrously idiotic. The only reason it's not called idiotic is merely because it worked out (by sheer luck, I hasten to add). (Also, I'm almost positive the plans for the Riverlands rape campaign preceded the Catnap given the Lannister perspective in this-- I think it was supposed to be a hail mary pass to thwart what he thought was a conspiracy against his House to intercept KL before Stannis attacked).

Anyway, I really question calling things stupid because they didn't happen to work out. Tywin was the one who took the major risk here, not Cat. All the odds looked stacked against him at this point in time.

[Trigger Warning]

She knew it could cause a war, whether she was the cause or not of the actual war is irrelevant when judging her actions.

[E-Ro]

Yeah Varys schemes would lead to a war in the near future; that or Baelish schemes would too.

Yet, from the conversation between Ilirio and Varys when Arya was a fortuit witness, we know the war should not began so quickly because they needed more time for their plot to become succesful.

Cat is not to be blamed for the incest, or the varys schemes, or the alarming stupidity level of Viserys. but her sole action of kidnapping a Lannister did forces Tywin to do something for the honor of his house.

Well the post of mine that you are responding to was deleted(for some reason, idk) but anyway.

Does it matter if what she did caused the inevitable war to happen faster? I dont think that it does. Especially considering her options at the time this all happened at the inn.

[nirolo]

I'm with you on this, James.

Clearly war was on her mind. Or at least that it was a distinct possibility. We know this because she was under direct order from Ned to fortify Moat Cailin in the event of a war against the Lannisters. Furthermore, in that very same chapter, but before she actually arrested Tyrion, Cat thought to herself, "It must not come to war..."

If war was already a distinct possibility before, taking Tywin's son under questionable authority will only make war more likely. And I don't see how Cat could be ignorant of this.

[Djinn]

Also Ned was a traitor to Robert in this matter since Robert order the release of Tyrion but Ned never really tries to contact Catelyn into doing that.

What happens if Tyrion was killed during this kidnapping? Before any sort of trial?

[Treemaster]

I don't know if Catelyn knew she was "starting a war", per se -- as others have pointed out, the war had already begun, and had multiple causes -- but Catelyn did know that the kidnapping actions could have serious consequences. I don't have the books handy, so I can't quote from the book, but I do know that she thinks that she has to make a decision, fast, on less-than-adequate evidence, but Tyrion's actions forced her into making a premature decision on what to do with the evidence she had.

That does not mean that Catelyn's actions were wrong or made her unsympathetic. From what she reasonably believed, Tyrion was indeed responsible. By the time she gets to know Tyrion better, it is too late -- because her sister has gone off the rails, unbeknownst to her.

[jentario]

What was this War of Five Kings, if not a succession war? Every single act can be traced back to Jaime and Cersei and their huge treason of making illegitimate heirs to the throne. Without Jaime and Cersei's twincest, no one could've started this war. So that's why, I put the blame on them. Like they didn't know what the risks were...

I would also like to point out the difference between an instigator and a cause. Catnap, poisoning, beheading, lies of LF... those were all instigators. The cause of the war was the twincest and the successionproblems because of it.

Very true. They might not have done it with bad intentions (depends on your views of incest) but they definitely put a lot at risk, and left the world ripe for the taking at the hands of vultures like Varys and Littlefinger. People say Jaime had no choice but to push Bran out the window, I say he made his choice when he kept banging Cersei after it became a royal treason. It's definitely their fault...

[Jasta11]

Blaming Cat for the war is like blaming Gavrilo Princip for World War 1. Sure, it was the event that led to the hostilities blowing up, but by no means is it the primary cause. Rather, it's a catalyst; there already was emnity between Starks and Lannisters, much renforced by the fact Cercei's children were bastards. The whole situation was a powder keg waiting to be lit, and while the kidnapping did not help matters, it's the death of Robert and the events surrounding it that made it explode. In the grand scheme of thing, Cat's actions did not change much. The war was going to happen, and Tywin would certainly have still targeted the Riverlands first, as they were allies to the North and much more vulnerable than them.

And it's not like she had a wealth of options either. She wanted to stay incognito, but Marillion revealed her presence, and from there she had to act. Else many, many questions would be posed later on when Tyrion gets back to King's Landing and mentions her running around the Realm when she's supposed to be back in Winterfell. Plus, she heavily suspected Tyrion of trying to kill Bran, so it's not like she could stand by and let the possible murderer of her child walk away once she was cornered; in the customs of her world, such an assassination is basically an act of war, there's no way the perpetrator shouldn't be punished.

If people want a culprit for the War, I'd suggest Littlefinger first and foremost for orchestrating the thing. Then Cercei for making sure Robert had no trueborn heirs out of spite (stupid as hell). Then Varys for doing nothing to stop it, looks like. Then Jaime for fucking Cercei even after it became treason and ran the risk of leaving no heirs, not that he cared. After these four you have the usual melting pot of divergent interests.

[Facebookless Man]

No.

[Minstral]

Its the first open act of hostility in the game. No knife and shadow, but a public fued for the realm to see. She is not responsible for the War of the five kings, there are two many players that added to that fire, but she did partake in this contribution.