Is Stannis main motivation for the crown to prove himself better than Robert?

[Draco_Dracul]

What was the alternative? Surrender the castle and hope the Mad King shows mercy?

Exactly. He has every reason to assume that for his brother's defiance surrendering will get him killed. Holding Storm's End meant that there was at least a chance that he could live. In the Defiance of Duskendale Areys had all of House Darklyn and all of House Hollard (save Dantos Hollard) killed and the war started not with kidnapping of Lyanna nor the murders of Rickard and Brandon, but when Aryes called for the heads of Ned and Robert.

[E-Ro]

"Aerys, if you only knew…that was hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king."

Regardless of what the mad king would have done to stannis, it is clear that in stannis' opinion, he had the OPTION of going over to the loyalists and fighting for aerys. But he chose not to.

[The Great and Mighty Poo]

I don't think Stannis is doing what he is doing out of duty or inherit greed, but because of his ego.

"Whatever he did, Robert had done first, and better."

This explains his motivation. Robert was a better warrior, more handsome, more charismatic, and arguably even a better commander.

However, Robert was a shit king. In this regard, Robert would be king first, but Stannis would be king better.

"All the same, the king had been on the point of refusing them until Lord Bryce Caron said, "Your Grace, if the sorceress is with us, afterward men will say it was her victory, not yours. They will say you owe the crown to her spells." That had turned the tide. Davos himself had held his tongue during the arguments, but truth be told, he had not been sad to see the back of her."

This strikes me as odd. Why does Stannis care so much if people think he won because of a sorceress or not?

Its because Robert won his war with his warhammer alone. He didn't need dragons, or magic or any of that crap. Stannis being better than Robert in a regard would be absolutely ruined if they found out he "cheated" in a sense.

And we know that Stannis has ISSUES with Robert. His entire crest for the crown seems to be one gigantic ego trip.

This is what I thought he's got little brother syndrome.

[Draco_Dracul]

"Aerys, if you only knew…that was hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king."

Regardless of what the mad king would have done to stannis, it is clear that in stannis' opinion, he had the OPTION of going over to the loyalists and fighting for aerys. But he chose not to.

He certainly had the option. That that option would almost certainly get him killed was likely a factor in his thinking.

That it is a stupid option doesn't prevent it from being an option, just look at Balon.

[E-Ro]

He certainly had the option. That that option would almost certainly get him killed was likely a factor in his thinking.

That it is a stupid option doesn't prevent it from being an option, just look at Balon.

Only, stannis doesn't think it would most likely get him killed. And, honestly the people saying it would are basing it on nothing at all. If stannis decides to fight for aerys, against robert the chances are Stannis would be lauded as a hero among the loyalists and one of the most honorable men in westeros. He could have made a name for himself in one stroke.

[The Great Walrus]

Perhaps it might be a subconscious motivation, but i believe his active motivation is that be believes the IT is legally and rightfully his, and that he could make a far better ruler then any of the other claimants that arouse during the WOT5K.

[Draco_Dracul]

All of which requires a man that it of sound mind. A man capable of that sound reasoning would have simply named The Sword of Morning his champion rather than fire (which makes a mockery of an ancient tradition) and wouldn't have called for man to send the closest thing he had to sons to their deaths.

[Tetrarch42]

He certainly had the option. That that option would almost certainly get him killed was likely a factor in his thinking.

That it is a stupid option doesn't prevent it from being an option, just look at Balon.

The idea that this would have gotten him killed almost certainly is an assertion, there's no reason to believe that's true.

Also, you could argue that holding Storm's End carried just as much risk as supporting Aerys - damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Mad Monkey]

If Renly had supported Stannis, than he wouldn't have a lot of soldiers and lords defecting to the other side when seeing Renly's armour during Blackwater. He might have had some more support after that battle instead of just the Florents. But still, they would have needed more support besides just the Stormlands. Maybe if they had won the Blackwater and removed (killed) Cersei and Tyrion and kept Joffrey and Tommen as a hostage the Lannisters might have bent the knee.

That's just it though. I don't think that Stannis could have beaten both the Lannisters and the Tyrells if he had Renly's stormlords because... well... he did have Renly's stormlords at the Blackwater when he fought them and he lost to them anyway. The Renly's ghost thing is a good point, but even without that Stannis would have been hopelessly overmatched.

That being said, if Stannis had somehow won the battle then it would have been smooth sailing.

Now, in theory Renly could have somehow figured out some way to charm the Tyrells over to Stannis's side but I don't see that really happening. And if he can't do that, then there really is no difference between between Stannis and Renly teaming up and Stannis's position after killing Renly.

[Lord Flashheart]

Because it is his by rights and any who deny that are his enemy. He's the ruler westeros deserves.

[Draco_Dracul]

The idea that this would have gotten him killed almost certainly is an assertion, there's no reason to believe that's true.

The Mad King's history with people that defy him tends toward family annihilation.

[Bronn Urgandy]

What was the alternative? Surrender the castle and hope the Mad King shows mercy?

Exactly. He has every reason to assume that for his brother's defiance surrendering will get him killed. Holding Storm's End meant that there was at least a chance that he could live. In the Defiance of Duskendale Areys had all of House Darklyn and all of House Hollard (save Dantos Hollard) killed and the war started not with kidnapping of Lyanna nor the murders of Rickard and Brandon, but when Aryes called for the heads of Ned and Robert.

Stannis surrendering is a good alternative for him, when the alternative at that stage really did look like being on the losing side of a Rebellion, if Stannis surrenders the Castle and pledges his allegiance to the Targareans (which is definitely something he could disguise as duty, as well) then that means that Storms End is lost to Robert, his support begins to dwindle, and Mace Tyrell joins in on the Trident or even the battle of the bells, making Roberts forces far more outnumbered than they were already, and almost definitely defeated, since the likes of Tarly would be taking the field. Maybe Stannis even fights there himself to prove his loyalty?

You really think the likes of Rheagar, Barristan and others wouldn't be pushing Aerys to spare Stannis and name him Lord of Storms End? Which means the guy gets an instant promotion, doesn't have to starve for a year and merely has to fight against the brother he isnt fond of. But no, Robert told him to hold Storms End, so he held it, during a war most thought Robert couldn't win, but Stannis sat there and held it. Then Robert demanded he give it up, so he gave it up, insult or no, he gave it up. I'll admit that mad Aerys might've burned the guy regardless, but Stannis doesn't know that, and like I said, Robert was licking his wounds and looking like being defeated already, so Stannis' alternative at the time was to sit and starve and if he lived through that, then he would face execution.

Stannis does his duty. Now he is the rightful heir, so he has a duty to the realm, to his daughter, and still to Robert, to make sure his trueborn heir sits the Throne. In fact, its possible that little brother syndrome is the reason Stannis fights for the Iron Throne now, since he's done his duty to Robert through Roberts entire life, he's not going to stop now just because Robert is dead.

[Draco_Dracul]

Every time except after Jon Arryn died.

Or he Aryes could kill Stannis anyway as he has no purpose for him after he surrenders. Given that Robert has a magnet Charisma that Stannis lacks, keeping him alive won't win any Stormlanders Aryes doesn't have already.

[LordStoneheart]

I'd say it's 75% of his motivation.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Surely he wants to prove himself to be better than Robert, but I think that it would not be enough motivation to aim for the crown, as Robert himself never wanted it.

Based on his words alone we can't even dismiss the possibility that he's as obsessed with power as Cersei, only better at hiding it. So it could very well be assumed that he, similar to Renly, wants the Throne to prove himself a better King.
But I think, that from his decision to take KL alone we can be sure that that's not the case.

At first it seems clear that Stannis seems to win the Throne and the war in one move. But what did Stannis really hope to accomplish? I don't think that Stannis actually assumed to be in a good position after he would've taken KL. The Lannisters wouldn't have suffered major losses, as only few of their men actually were in KL, and they very likely would have backed Myrcella. Also, to Stannis it must have been much more obvious than to the reader, that the Tyrells would have allied with the Lannisters, instead of supporting a man they certainly knew they had absolutely nothing to gain from. No positions in the small council for men that nearly starved him to death and then supported the brother who betrayed (may be the wrong term, but you know the meaning)

him.
Essentially, he was planning to position himself in a starving city, with an army of uncertain loyalties, surrounded by numerous foes. Likely, his only options for the time after the battle would have been flight or death.
Therefore I don't think that we can interpret his attempt to storm the city primarily as reaching for power. Instead, his main goal must have been punishing Cersei and other corrupt members of the small council, avenging his brother, Jon Arryn (and Ned), and eliminating the false heirs to the throne.

I think this is proof enough that his main concern has indeed always been justice, and not his own personal power.

edited: grammar

[Lord Egeman]

Surely he wants to prove himself better than Robert, but I think that it would not be enough motivation to gain the crown, as Robert himself never wanted it.

Based on his words alone we can't even dismiss the possibility that he's as obsessed with power with Cersei, only better at hiding it. So it could very well be assumed that he, similar to Renly, wants the Throne to prove himself a better King.

But I think, that from his decision to take KL alone we can be sure that that's not the case.

At first it seems clear that Stannis seems to win the Throne and the war in one move. But what did Stannis really hope to accomplish? I don't think that Stannis actually assumed to be in a good position after he would've taken KL. The Lannisters wouldn't have suffered major losses, as only few of their men actually were in KL, and they very likely would have backed Myrcella. Also, to Stannis it must have been much more obvious than to the reader, that the Tyrells would have allied with the Lannisters, instead of supporting a man they certainly knew they had absolutely nothing to gain from. No positions in the small council for men that nearly starved him to death and then supported the brother who betrayed (may be the wrong term, but you know the meaning)

him.

Essentially, he was planning to position himself in a starving city, with an army of uncertain loyalties, surrounded by numerous foes. Likely, his only options for the time after the battle would have been flight or death.

Therefore I don't think that we can interpret his attempt to storm the city primarily as grabbing for power. Instead, his main goal must have been punishing Cersei and other corrupt members, avenging his brother, Jon Arryn (and Ned), and eliminating the false heirs to the throne.

I think this is proof enough that his main concern has indeed always been justice, and not his own personal power.

I have never seen a good evaluation of this move of Stannis. Kudos.

And at the Renly-Stannis-Cat parley, Stannis offers justice for Ned even though he does not like him very much.

Few months ago I have seen an analysis of Stannis and Robert's relationship which makes me uneasy in supporting the OP. I don't think that is the main cause or even a major one.

[Ser Onaventea Helms]

Yes and no.

Stannis feels it his duty to continue after Robert, he feels it to be his sacred duty.

"It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother.

It isn't to prove he is better to Robert, but to succeed him. There are a **** ton of quotes that would give you the impression that he just wants to be better than Robert, but it certainly digs deeper than that.

[Antler's Fury]

This strikes me as odd. Why does Stannis care so much if people think he won because of a sorceress or not?

Because unlike Robert, Stannis inspires no love. He needs people to be intimidated by his strength and skill, not seeing him as a puppet of a red witch.

He certainly had the option. That that option would almost certainly get him killed was likely a factor in his thinking.

That it is a stupid option doesn't prevent it from being an option, just look at Balon.

If siding with Aerys would obviously get him killed, it wouldn't be "hard choosing" now would it? It would be very easy choosing, as easy as choosing between life and death.

Every time except after Jon Arryn died.

When Stannis did the best that he could do under the circustances: get swords. He had no reason to believe that Robert would see his claim as anything more than an attempt to raise himself in the line of succession.

Or he Aryes could kill Stannis anyway as he has no purpose for him after he surrenders. Given that Robert has a magnet Charisma that Stannis lacks, keeping him alive won't win any Stormlanders Aryes doesn't have already.

Aerys has only a handful of loyalist Stormlords that Robert's going to defeat soon. The rest are behind Stannis. Even if keeping him alive doesn't win them over, killing him only alienates them further. After all, if he killed Stannis despite his surrendering, who else is he going to kill after they surrender? Killing people after they surrender ensures that everyone fights against you to the death, since you've shown that you take no prisoners.

And we know that Stannis has ISSUES with Robert. His entire crest for the crown seems to be one gigantic ego trip.

It's probably safe to say that Stannis has been overshadowed by Robert all his life, a fact that was only made more plain during RR, where Stannis' work was behind the scenes with little recompense and Robert got most of the credit and rewards. Plus, I think it's also safe to say that Stannis was disappointed by Robert's personal indulgences and general lack of responsibility both as king and as a person. Deep down, in a place that Stannis himself probably refuses to even privately acknowledge, his quest for power is partially about proving his capabilities to all of Westeros and showing that he's just as good as Robert was, if not better. Indeed, it's interesting to note that long after Robert is dead, Stannis is constantly referencing him and comparing Robert to himself, at Dragonstone, at the Wall, and in the march on Winterfell.

However, I would hesitate to say that this is his primary motivation. Stannis' problem with Robert was that he was not doing his job properly, and making the realm suffering malgovernance through a corrupt court while he fell asleep at the wheel. Stannis' entire career, whether it is his participating in RR, crushing the Greyjoy rebellion, chewing out Godric Borrell, crushing Mance, fighting the Boltons, punishing/rewarding Davos, gelding rapists, etc. has always been about saving the people of Westeros from harm, whether it is the Targs, the Lannisters, the Ironborn, the wildlings, or even his own soldiers. That is his primary motivation.

[Sansa_Stark]

"Or curse me for my stubborn pride, sending her away when I needed her most." Yeah sending mel away was more of a pride/ego thing.

[Winnief]

Because it is his by rights and any who deny that are his enemy.

There is nothing more frightening than a truly just man. I think Stannis *does* resent the fact that Robert got all the hero worship, but he would never have even considered trying to take the IT-if not for the fact that Robert having no trueborn heirs makes him next in line. Under Westeros law, Stannis has the best claim, and for him that's all there is to it.

This is going to make his interactions with Dany, (and possibly Jon if the truth of his heritage becomes known) very interesting-what does Stannis do if someone else arguably *does* have a better claim.