[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Ruby Chevrolet]

I was thinking it swooped and caught them. Like an eagle.

Could be that.

The diet of fish is mentioned twice (I think) so it jumped out at me that it might be significant for some reason.

[Father of Hosts]

That's how I took it. Plenty of birds dive to feed on fish without actually swimming in the water or being good in the water.

Being fire made flesh and all, it would make sense from a literary standpoint if their extreme power was negated in the water.

[Sevumar]

Also, the dragon's effectiveness is enhanced only to the rider's ingenuity and skill. Hints on hints on hints.

ETA: They seem most effective when they show up as a surprise. As opposed to flying with an army for a pitched battle. Basically, you don't want anyone to know where your dragons are in a fight, until the most opportune time.

It makes sense that their greatest combat value would be as shock weapons, just like anything else that has been used that way. Their power to bolster the morale of friendly troops or intimidate opposing troops can't be underestimated either. The arrival of friendly riders on their dragons proved to be a turning point in more than one battle during the Dance.

Still, even if the Dance proved the mortality of dragons, they are still highly dangerous creatures in capable hands. Riderless, they're wildcards, as we've started to see in Meereen. From what we now know about dragons, it seems a bit unrealistic to expect Dany to have domesticated and trained all three that hatched in her clutch, but she could have fared better with Drogon.

[Anath]

Ah ok. I suppose the Vale's armies could still proclaim Rhaena as heir then.

I don't think so. For now, Rhaena has no claim - her father was only Viserys' younger brother.

But she can be their figurehead, especially if she managed to hatch a dragon. She can be the "mascot" of the army fighting to release their true king Aegon III.

At this stage, their adult supporters might take her as his future wife - she's his half-sister. In fact, it is quite possible that either she or Baela marry Viserys later - or even Aegon, after Jaehaera's death. When GRRM spoke of his Velaryon bride, tPatQ was not written yet, I think, so the details were not clear. But they are both daughters of Laena Velaryon, so they are Velaryon by blood, especially when it looks that Alyn has yet to marry and father a daughter old enough to become Aegon's wife and bear him children some 15 years later.

[Father of Hosts]

Ah ok. I suppose the Vale's armies could still proclaim Rhaena as heir then.

Maybe they're referred to now as effective as WMD's because it's been so long since anyone had to deal with them. All the random ways people killed them are probably forgotten by most regular people and soldiers int he series of present day. During the Dance, all kinds of brave or foolish people tried different ways to kill dragons. Most of them died, and it sounds like the successful ones were mostly lucky. By the time of Dany's dragon's, spears and crossbow bolts to the eye are pretty much the only thing anybody has suggested to kill them.

The main one I'm referring to is Vermax, the one that died because some random sailor tied a chain to the ship then threw a hook into the dragon's path to use the dragon's own strength to wound it. That particular death sounded brutal to me. Most of the other ones were too though.

This is probably true. The character's in the TPaTQ probably spent a lot of time considering ways to kill a dragon. However, plenty of clever characters in ASOIAF are about to start thinking of ways to kill dragons.

Vermax was pretty lucky. I was thinking along the lines of the peasants as well as couple others. It seems like pure brute force can, if not actually kill a dragon, damage it in such a way that it becomes much less effective. The one whose wing is badly mangled and can barely fly comes to mind and the dragon pit.

I didn't mean to sound like I was saying it was easy. For sure not.

[Father of Hosts]

It makes sense that their greatest combat value would be as shock weapons, just like anything else that has been used that way. Their power to bolster the morale of friendly troops or intimidate opposing troops can't be underestimated either. The arrival of friendly riders on their dragons proved to be a turning point in more than one battle during the Dance.

Still, even if the Dance proved the mortality of dragons, they are still highly dangerous creatures in capable hands. Riderless, they're wildcards, as we've started to see in Meereen. From what we now know about dragons, it seems a bit unrealistic to expect Dany to have domesticated and trained all three that hatched in her clutch, but she could have fared better with Drogon.

I didn't mean to sound like I was talking about Dany in particular. I meant it more in the way of, Daemon was able to slay the most powerful force at the time by being a creative rider who played to the strengths of his particular dragon. I was thinking more along the lines of someone clever and resourceful being a rider, Tyrion just as an example, and how much more they can accomplish as opposed to say, Victarion with a dragon. They aren't just a one trick death machine.

[Sevumar]

I didn't mean to sound like I was talking about Dany in particular. I meant it more in the way of, Daemon was able to slay the most powerful force at the time by being a creative rider who played to the strengths of his particular dragon. I was thinking more along the lines of someone clever and resourceful being a rider, Tyrion just as an example, and how much more they can accomplish as opposed to say, Victarion with a dragon. They aren't just a one trick death machine.

I don't think we disagree. I was just trying to fold some of what we may have learned from the Dance into our understanding of Dany's situation. The fact that there are no truly experienced and skilled dragonriders in present times is going to be a huge advantage for Dany and anyone allied to her. Daemon seemed to be a rider of singular talent, and it seemed like Nettles was headed that direction as well.

[Blood of the Flagon]

Could be that.

The diet of fish is mentioned twice (I think) so it jumped out at me that it might be significant for some reason.

i assume based on his size that he ate a lot of seals and other marine mammals that he may not have to dive for

[Father of Hosts]

I don't think we disagree. I was just trying to fold some of what we may have learned from the Dance into our understanding of Dany's situation. The fact that there are no truly experienced and skilled dragonriders in present times is going to be a huge advantage for Dany and anyone allied to her. Daemon seemed to be a rider of singular talent, and it seemed like Nettles was headed that direction as well.

Ha, I don't think we do either. My line of thought is that we may see this dichotomy again. One rider is natural talent that pushes their dragon beyond what others think it's capable of and the other just tries to brute force over everything, probably getting their dragon and themselves killed.

[Fire Eater]

I felt bad for the people of Westeros for what they had to go through, especially the people of Spicetown and Tumbleton. I felt some sympathy for the dragons as well. They were the last of their kind, and they were being used to kill each other. The Shepherd was right that the dragons were the ones causing their problems, but he just had the wrong dragons. It was actually the figurative dragons who were causing the problems, the ones who controlled the literal dragons.

Both claimants, IMO, were unfit for the throne. Aegon was impatient and stupid while Rhaenyra had a bad temper and suffered from paranoia. Aemond pretty much started the war by being an asshole, and attacking his nephew who didn't want to fight. How did he think Rhaenyra was going to respond to that? He also, in his scorched earth campaign, burned a motherhouse. What traitors amongst septas did he expect to find there? I felt no sympathy for Aemond when he was killed although it was ironic that he rode Visenya's dragon but was killed with Visenya's sword.

Daemon I have mixed feelings for. He shows to be a badass in waiting for Aemond to show up at Harrenhal on a dragon twice the size of his, and brilliantly jumping from his dragon to Aemond's to kill him. Daemon also shows to be an excellent military commander in having the blacks fall for his feint at Harrenhal and go straight for KL. At the same time, Daemon also appears to be a bit villanesque in having children murdered, and poor Helaena was forced into a literal Sophie's Choice.

We know that Meraxes was killed in Dorne by a scorpion bolt in the eye. It could have been a lucky shot IMO. We also know that the precedent for legitimizing bastards predates Aegon the Unworthy.

I see bits of Rhaenyra and Alicent in Cersei.

Alicent:

• Moved to seize the throne the moment her royal husband was dead and place her son on IT
  
• Cersei likes to wear green, including emeralds and Alicent wore green at the tourney
  

Rhaenyra:

• Suffered from a serious case of paranoia, increasing with the deaths of her children to the point that she was making enemies out of friends
  
• Had a son named Joffrey
  
• Took the throne with the backing of the gold cloaks
  
• Had KL, but had to deal with mob riots over food
  
• Grasping and vindictive
  
• "King Maegor with teats"/Cersei is well on her way to becoming Maegor in warring with the Faith later and her cruel and brutal measures
  
• Tried to have Daemon's lover killed/Cersei will likely try to kill Brienne for mowing her lawn
  
• Was named her late father's heir
  
• Called "the bitch queen"
  
• Noted for affairs
  
• Killed by her brother
  

[Newstar]

It's funny, but after reading TPATQ, dragons as weapons seem less impressive, not more. The point that only Vhagar approaches something resembling WMD status

Rhaenyra definitely had a Cersei-meets-Lysa vibe. Apple Martini's point that Rhaenyra could be an older version of Dany is an interesting one, especially since it seems pretty much guaranteed we're going to get a Dance 2.0 and that Dany will play the "Rhaenyra" (the "black" female claimant), likely to Aegon's Aegon.

One detail I loved was Rhaenyra getting sliced by the Iron Throne whenever she sat it over and over again, signaling (apparently) a short reign. The "cut by the Iron Throne if you're unworthy to sit it" bit is not new, but I loved the imagery.

Apple Martini pointed out all the twin sets (heh) running around in TPATQ. It's interesting, because the Targ histories were pretty low on twins before TPATQ was released, and there are a lot of them in TPATAQ: Rhaena/Baela, Jaehaera/Jaehaerys, etc.

I agree with those who said that the story kind of left them cold. Not a lot to love or really feel strongly about. The main point of interest for me became the manner of the dragons' deaths.

...Colour me completely unsurprised that Nettles, a girl who apart from her colouring is described pretty much as an Arya clone--"black-haired, brown-eyed, brown-skinned, skinny, foul-mouthed, filthy, and fearless"--is one of the handful to make it out of the Dance 2.0 alive. Portends good things for Arya, maybe?

[Sevumar]

Both claimants, IMO, were unfit for the throne. Aegon was impatient and stupid while Rhaenyra had a bad temper and suffered from paranoia. Aemond pretty much started the war by being an asshole, and attacking his nephew who didn't want to fight.

I agree on that assessment of Aegon, but I think if Rhaenyra's succession had occurred peacefully, as it was lawfully supposed to, she would have proved a capable ruler. Unlike Dany or Cersei, she was prepared by her father to assume the burdens of the monarchy.

From the descriptions and actions of her children, Rhaenyra seems to have been a good mother and a decently compassionate person. The worst actions of her side in the war were perpetrated without her knowledge or consent, or ordered by her in times of extreme distress. As a wartime leader, she demonstrates a lack of resilience, and she makes some very bad decisions.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I felt bad for the people of Westeros for what they had to go through, especially the people of Spicetown and Tumbleton. I felt some sympathy for the dragons as well. They were the last of their kind, and they were being used to kill each other. The Shepherd was right that the dragons were the ones causing their problems, but he just had the wrong dragons. It was actually the figurative dragons who were causing problems, the ones who controlled the literal dragons.

You and me both. If ever there was strong argument against this batshit clan of egotistical backstabbers, this was it. Neither faction was admirable. By the end I just wanted them to kill each other and be done with it. And yes, they both would have been terrible in the long run. Mr. Petulant and Impatient on the one hand, Ms. Vindictive and Paranoid on the other. Shit, who does that sound like ...

[sertravisredbeard]

Yeah Rhaenyra's paranoia probably wouldn't have been as bad had she been made queen instead of having to fight for it over the corpses of her sons. Only after some key betrayals and tragedy did she start making the bad decisions that lost the war. I have more sympathy for her than either Aegon II or especially Alicent. Letting Aemond loose to just burn town after town was ridiculous.

.

[Blood of the Flagon]

Yeah Rhaenyra's paranoia probably wouldn't have been as bad had she been made queen instead of having to fight for it over the corpses of her sons. Only after some key betrayals and tragedy did she start making the bad decisions that lost the war. I have more sympathy for her than either Aegon II or especially Alicent. Letting Aemond loose to just burn town after town was ridiculous.

.

These people make their greyjoy contemporaries look wise and reasonable. Which says a lot.

[Anath]

In the beginning, Rhaenyra listened to all kinds of advice, even if she ultimately disagreed with some of it. Corlys Velaryon even shouted at her - and he was not punished. She did not strike me as paranoid at all. Things changed only later. Again, I'd like to point out that the non-paranoid Cole and Alicent did commit a murder in the very night of Viserys' death - and don't give me the excuse with it only being Cole. He was their man. It is mentioned that after he did his thing, no one objected. Clearly, Alicent and Ser Otto didn't care all that much about killing the old man who wanted - oh the horror! - to honour his vows.

It wasn't as if Rhaenyra had much of a choice. She had to fight Aegon, otherwise she and hers would be physically eliminated not so long after. The Greens couldn't let them be.

The same could not be said about Aegon's party.

[Ahri Adaran]

Two things: as for Rhaenyra I think it's important to separate her normal personality and her personality after one by one by one each of her sons died until only one was left all under a year. It's like judging Catelyn's normal personality by the standards of her madness after seeing Robb cut down. She probably would've been a decent queen if it wasn't for going through that massive trauma and being sent around the bend. After that though...

I also noticed that the army numbers seemed very small for example the northern host was only 2,000 men and other armies seemed proportionally much small than the ones fielded in the War of the Five Kings. Maybe Westerosi militaries had withered away with dragons making armies mostly obsolete unless both sides had dragons?

As far as the overall plot, it looked like it's really confirmed for me one thread that runs through all of Martin's work: winning a war is like winning a hurricane. In just about every example in Martin's work when a character decided to use violence in order to get something they care about it ends up backfiring sooner or later.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah Rhaenyra's paranoia probably wouldn't have been as bad had she been made queen instead of having to fight for it over the corpses of her sons. Only after some key betrayals and tragedy did she start making the bad decisions that lost the war. I have more sympathy for her than either Aegon II or especially Alicent. Letting Aemond loose to just burn town after town was ridiculous.

.

I started out, even knowing how it ended, rooting for Rhaenyra. But she just completely lost me. Not unlike Dany, actually. And I think the outcome just goes to show that the "right" side doesn't always win and that neither side is necessarily "good."

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Dragonlore we have learnt (with apologies for pointing out the obvious)

Please add to this list if I have omitted something…

1. Dragons hatch naturally from eggs, although not predictably

2. None of the dragons in the story change their sex, nor is there any suggestion that they are able to do so.

3. The mating ritual of a dragons is typically aerial

4. Dragons are natural cannibals, (although they appear to have a range in personality)

5. Dragons are more willing to accept riders and commands when they are full of belly

6. Dragonstone might well have one or more dragon egg still hidden on it

7. Dragons appear to have a semi-wargish bond with humans-

8. The dragons of Westeros (all of whom are descended from Vhagar, Meraxes and Balerion) do not appear to show any signs of inbreeding or abnormality

9. It is possible that dragons that belong to lovers, or spouses, develop a special bond for each other

10. Once dragons have accepted one rider, they will not bear another

11. Dragons are ridden while wearing riding leathers

12. Dragons wear saddles and there are four short chains to secure the rider onto the dragon

13. Dragons are typically ridden with a steel tipped whip

14. Dragons have a quasi-wargish bond with their human riders-

15. The best way to bond with a dragon is to carry it always and be in its presence from birth, so dragons might have some sentience while in the egg

16. That only Targaryens (or those with Valyrian blood) can bond with dragons seems an unquestioned assumption but the probability from the evidence (Nettles, Hard Hugh, Ulf the white, Addam of Hull) is those with non – Targaryen blood can ride dragons.

17. Dragons gain size and experience as they grew older, but lose speed.

18. The word ‘Queen’ does not denote ‘egg layer’ as previously thought since Syrax lays eggs but is a She-Dragon.

And that dragons, especially young dragons, can be killed by fire but as they grow older they become more resistant.

[Anath]

Two things: as for Rhaenyra I think it's important to separate her normal personality and her personality after one by one by one each of her sons died until only one was left all under a year. It's like judging Catelyn's normal personality by the standards of her madness after seeing Robb cut down. She probably would've been a decent queen if it wasn't for going through that massive trauma and being sent around the bend. After that though...

My great-grandmother was a sweet old lady, telling me fairy-tales and teaching me how to pet the cats. She was quite sane.

She was also the woman who, losing two of her three children in a few days of a now vaccine-preventable disease, threw herself in one of their graves and fought and scratched against everyone who was trying to take her out. For quite a long time afterwards she was anything but sane.

She recovered. With time. Which Rhaenyra didn't have.

I don't think Rhaenyra was anything like Dany. Dany had a vicious streak even in her happy days with her khal. She intended to raise her son as a fierce Dothraki.

As far as we know, Rhaenyra didn't hurt anyone before the war. She didn't hurt Grand Maester Orwyle when he came to her with Aegon's proposals. Her sons looked quite decent.

Her problem was that immediately after a trauma, she was placed in a situation that forced her to make decisions when she was clearly unable to, for the moment. And the betrayals she encountered did not help much. Paranoia isn't the same as having a vicious streak from the start.