[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Petyr Patter]

Just finished reading it. Thoughts...

• If the maestars really did arrange for the dragons to die off, then this civil war justified it. A lot of posters (maybe even me, can't recall) seem to take Marwyn at his word that the meastars moved against the dragons because "magic" beasts have no place in their world of reason and research. However, the long list of towns destroyed makes it clear the dragons were a humanitarian crisis waiting to happen, again. Aegon the Conqueror appeared to use his dragons and fellow riders judiciously to win decisive battlefield victories, or to take strong castles.
  
• However, dragon vs. dragon battles were almost always pyhric, with the "winning" dragon often being maimed or having their rider killed. So, it doesn't make sense to use dragons aggresively/directly, it makes sense to use dragons to attack where your opponent doesn't have them. Resulting in a "rapine" campaign, with many villages and towns being reduced to nothing. If the Targaryen family can have one succession crisis, it certainly could have had another. Imagine how the Blackfyre rebellions would been if both sides used dragons openly.
  
• We once again have an example of a King's will versus the "law." Aegon II claimed he followed Andal law, where the sons of a man's body ALWAYS come before hid daughters. In contrast, Rhaenyra was named the heir in the king's will, and years earlier many lords had vowed to fight for her inheritance. If so, who is the traitor or usurper?
  

[sertravisredbeard]

Yeah neither side ending up looking good, they made their family seem just as conniving, trivial, and backstabbing as any of the other families in the realm would have been if they had been in power. In doing so, they killed off their one advantage, the dragons, which made them look just as mortal as the other families. That probably emboldened the future rebellions like the Greyjoys acting up, and Dorne's continued resistance after being "conquered," followed by the Blackfyre rebellions. Without dragons, the Targaryens were just annoying bosses that demanded fealty. Many in the realm just waited for the right moment to rebel after that.

I think the small army numbers could partly be explained by the leaders not wanting to lose too many men at the same time. With dragons in the field, thousands of soldiers could be wiped out too quickly, so relatively smaller armies might have been the smarter move. Also, some of the lords might have wanted to wait to see who was winning before choosing a side. The Dustins and Manderlys only make up a small portion of the north's nobility, so the Starks might not have wanted to waste a large portion of their manpower when the end would have been the same either way to them: a Targaryen king ruling over them. From what we've seen, the North was mostly left alone after the Conquest. One Targaryen probably wasn't any better than another to them.

[sertravisredbeard]

I agree Petyr that this could have influenced any maester plots to get rid of dragons. Especially after one side gave dragons to power-hungry lowborns that turned as soon as they could, insisting to be made lords of some of the most prestigious seats in the land. Having guys like Ulf the White, Hugh Hammer and Aemond rampaging around probably lessened the prestige of the Targaryen regime a bit.

[Juan_Snow]

I noticed this too. Hell, an angry mob with fairly rudimentary weapons is enough to kill, what, four or five of them in the pit? And other than the hatchlings (and Aegon's was a baby but still big enough for him to ride), I'm sure the pit dragons that were killed were bigger than Dany's.

Definitely the most surprising part of the story for me. I know the Dragons were chained and under the dome, but its hard to imagine five Dragons being taken out with pitchforks and torches. The thought of thousands of casualties as an angry mob rushed headlong into flame throwing killing machines painted a gruesome picture.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

Based on information from tPatQ and the MUSH appendix Bloodravens family tree looks to be pretty interesting:

Male Line:

Father: Aegon Targaryen IV (b.? the wiki assumes he was born “before 139”)

Paternal Grandfather: Viserys Targaryen II (b. 122 AL)

Viserys is 7 in the waning days of 129. tPartQ

Paternal Grandmother: Rhaena Targaryen* (b. 116 AL)

Rhaena is 13 in the waning days of 129 AL making her 6 years older than Viserys. tPartQ

Paternal Great-grandfather: Prince Daemon Targaryen (b. 81 – 130 AL)

Daemon supposedly dies, we never see the body, at 49 years old on the 22^nd day of the 5^th moon in the year 130 Al. tPartQ

Paternal Great-grandmother: Queen Rhaenyra Targaryen (b. 97 -130 AL)

Rhaenyra dies at the age of 33 on the 22^nd day of the 10^th month in the year 130 AL. tPartQ

*Rhaena is the most likely candidate to be Viserys’ wife considering their age and the fact that Aegon III appears to have married Jaehaera (Aegon II’s daughter), IIRC. Edit: Rhaena was not Viserys wife according to The hairy bear Ran has confirmed that Viserys' wife wasn't a Targ.

All told Bloodraven could be the direct descendant of 3 or 4 of the last Dragonriders, if not the last Dragonrider. Assuming Rhaena Targaryen married Viserys II, Bloodraven would also be a descendant of Leana Velaryon who would be his 3^rd great-grand parent, and that would make him a descendent of Rhaena Targaryen the QWNW. And Daemon Targaryen, aka Uber-Targ, is his great-grandfather x2! Assuming Daemon somehow survived the impact (Ran hints at as much) and made it out to the Isle of Faces he would have only been 94 when BR was born (relatively speaking that’s young…plenty of time for them to hang out talk about the old gods, spy on the neighbors, and plot to control the world form their secret hideouts).

Female Line:

Mother: Melissa or Mylessa Blackwood (b. 158),

Maternal Grandfather: Benjicot “Bloody Ben” Blackwood, Lord of Raventree Hall (b. 117),

Maternal Grandmother: Lady Ellyn of House Baratheon (b. 119),

Maternal Uncle: Seth (b. 138), heir to Raventree Hall, m. Marian Stark (b. 140),

Maternal Greataunt: {Lady Alysanne} of House Blackwood (b. 113-146), married to Cregan Stark (b. 108), Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North.

(This information all comes from the MUSH…and it’s not Canon…as far as I know.)

Bastard Relative of Unknown Relation: Red Robb Rivers, The Bowman of Raventree, (b.?)

Assuming this Melissa Blackwood (born 158 AL) is the same person as Lady Mylessa "Missy" Blackwood, than she’s Bloodraven's mother (she would be 17 when he was born in 175 AL, so it’s quite possible). This means Bloodraven’s maternal grandfather was Benjicot Blackwood who fought in the Dance as a boy of 11. Ben witnessed the death of three of the last dragons from within range of their flames (a distance 50 yards) and eventually ordered the mercy killing Tessarion (Billy Burley placed 3 arrows in her eye from 100 yards and out of the range of her flames). Bloodraven’s maternal grandmother was a Baratheon (presumably one of the illiterate lords little sisters). And His Uncle was Seth Blackwood who married a Stark (Marina), as did his greataunt/mother-in-law Alysanne Blackwood who was Cregan Stark's second wife and the mother of Seth’s wife Marina Stark. And there's Red Robb Rivers an illigitmate, though recognized, relative of unknown relation to Raventree known for his archery skills.

Daemon and Harrenhal

It’s been noted by others, Lord Varys, in particular, that Daemon Targaryen’s decision to go to Harrenhal and face Aemond in one on one dragon-combat doesn’t make much sense. He had his kids to worry about in a post-Lucerys/Blood and Cheese world, he still had a wife he seemed to care for, and he had a war to finish. Yet he seemingly abandons all of this to go on a suicide mission, doing exactly what he said he wouldn’t do unless he had no other option, when he seems to have other options. There are a couple of possible explanations for Daemon’s decision:

1. He was done with Rhaenyra’s shit. Her betrayal cut deep and he was tired of her paranoia so he cut his ties.
   
2. He knew the balance of power had shifted since the Battle of Tumbleton and realized Vhgar had to die or all was lost.
   
3. He used the opportunity to gracefully depart from the known world to carryout some super-secret magical-prophetic-supernatural mission…like become a Green Man on the Isle of Face…so he could live a ridiculously long life and mentor his super badass great-grandson to be…
   

Problem with explanation #1 is that it ignores the risk he would have placed his kids in just save Nettles and blow off his wife.

The problem with Explanation #2 is that 2 dragons are better than 1 and by sending away Nettles he cost the Blacks more Dragons than he took out when he sacrificed Caraxes and himself also taking out the Blacks best military commander. All told it’s a net loss.

The problem with explanation #3 is that it’s a highly speculative crackpot theory to think Daemon learned of some prophecy-vision-wisdom-knowledge-stuff and then decide to abandon his entire family in the middle of a war. Nevertheless it’s seems possible. This section of the text references themes connected to the old gods and North more so than the rest. For instance:

Hospitality/Guests Rights

Upon receiving the Queen’s letter demanding Nettles head Daemon was apparently ready to violate guest’s rights as he brandished his sword before learning the Maester had come to him “in secret.” Nevertheless when Daemon takes his leave of Maidenpool the next morning he specifically thanks Lord Mooton for his “hospitality.” IIRC, this is the first and I believe only reference to hospitality or guest rights in tPatQ.

Wierwoods

Daemon spends 13 days alone, aside from Caraxes, in Harrenhal. Every passing day he made a slash in the Wierwood. These are described as “old wounds” that “bleed afresh every spring.” Clearly Daemon spent some alone time with old gods before he disappeared. This is also the only reference to a weirwood in tPatQ, IIRC.

Seeing

There is also an emphasis on seeing in this section. Daemon says to Lord Mooton “This is the last that you will see me.” Despite having spread the word that he was alone at Harrenhal when Daemon asks how Aemond found him, “’My lady’ Aemond answered. ‘She saw you in a storm cloud, in a mountain pool at dusk, in the fire we lit to cook our suppers, She sees much and more, my Alys.’” Thus a “seer” was the only witness to their fight. They battle above the Gods Eye and the Isle of Faces. In the battle Aemond’s lack of one eye impairs his vision and he gets blinded by the setting sun, and finally he’s stabbed through his one-blinded-eye. All of which appears to have been Daemon’s plan.

Who’s the real “seer” here?

Aemond supposedly has a seer with him and calls his uncle a fool for having come alone, yet it seems as though he has fallen into Daemon’s tarp. I think Tze is probably correct in arguing Lady Alys Rivers is unreliable source regarding her own prowess as a “seer” however the presences of a “seer” claiming to see through storm clouds, mountain pools, and cook fires (ie multiple objects) in this section does probably suggest that someone: Nettles, Daemon, or their offspring are potential seers capable of seeing through more than just one source/object…and Bloodraven’s just so happens have 1001 eyes and be Daemon’s Great Grandson twice over.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Definitely the most surprising part of the story for me. I know the Dragons were chained and under the dome, but its hard to imagine five Dragons being taken out with pitchforks and torches. The thought of thousands of casualties as an angry mob rushed headlong into flame throwing killing machines painted a gruesome picture.

After Daemon and Aemond's duel in the sky, the dragonpit attack is by far the most visceral imagery for me. How insane and manic those people must have been. But it also blows a huge hole in the idea that dragons are invincible WMDs for whoever possesses them.

[alguien]

Fun read. Here's my crackpot theory:

So... did anyone else think of Varys when reading about Master of Whisperers Larys Clubfoot? His total knowledge of the Red Keeps passages. His manner shifting from glib to somber. His smuggling of a royal prisoner out in a barrel by sea...

For a moment, I seriously began to entertain notions that Varys was a sort analog of Flagg in Stephen King's Eyes of the Dragon (and many other novels). The supernatural advisor who seems to bring about chaos in his wake and returns often.

I mean, its probably just a coincidence, but damn, there sure were some superficial parallels there. (I've always suspected Varys of being a Blackfyre or something anyway)

On another note, I hope that Daemon Uber-Targ lived. And I really wonder what happened to Nettles and Sheepstealer. Couldn't help but think of How to Train Your Dragon when I read their story.

[The Faceless Bard]

Unreliable narrator, new Valyrian sword, dragon egg lost at sea, dragon missing! Amazing story so far!

[Newstar]

Fun read. Here's my crackpot theory:

So... did anyone else think of Varys when reading about Master of Whisperers Larys Clubfoot? His total knowledge of the Red Keeps passages. His manner shifting from glib to somber. His smuggling of a royal prisoner out in a barrel by sea...

For a moment, I seriously began to entertain notions that Varys was a sort analog of Flagg in Stephen King's Eyes of the Dragon (and many other novels). The supernatural advisor who seems to bring about chaos in his wake and returns often.

I mean, its probably just a coincidence, but damn, there sure were some superficial parallels there. (I've always suspected Varys of being a Blackfyre or something anyway)

On another note, I hope that Daemon Uber-Targ lived. And I really wonder what happened to Nettles and Sheepstealer. Couldn't help but think of How to Train Your Dragon when I read their story.

Not to mention Larys and Varys rhyme. Real original there, GRRM. I guess the strain of coming up with the dozens of new names for TPATQ like Hobert and Orwyle took its toll.

Larys Clubfoot continues GRRM's ongoing theme of disabled = badass. And it's no surprise to me that the misfit drab, brown, "notably ugly" Sheepstealer is the one which survives the Dance, while the beautiful, resplendent dragons are the ones that perish by the truckload. By way of foreshadowing, I similarly expect the "beautiful people" in ASOIAF (Margaery, Aegon, Arianne, Harry the Heir, etc.) to start dropping like flies when GRRM ups the body count, while they are survived by their much uglier, disabled, or outcast peers.

I thought of How to Train Your Dragon as well! In addition to Hiccup plying Toothless with fish and bonding that way, in the opening sequence of HTTYD, several of the dragons carry off sheep during the raid.

[maidenandwarrior]

Daemon and Harrenhal

It’s been noted by others, Lord Varys, in particular, that Daemon Targaryen’s decision to go to Harrenhal and face Aemond in one on one dragon-combat doesn’t make much sense. He had his kids to worry about in a post-Lucerys/Blood and Cheese world, he still had a wife he seemed to care for, and he had a war to finish. Yet he seemingly abandons all of this to go on a suicide mission, doing exactly what he said he wouldn’t do unless he had no other option, when he seems to have other options. There are a couple of possible explanations for Daemon’s decision:

1. He was done with Rhaenyra’s shit. Her betrayal cut deep and he was tired of her paranoia so he cut his ties.
2. He knew the balance of power had shifted since the Battle of Tumbleton and realized Vhgar had to die or all was lost.
3. He used the opportunity to gracefully depart from the known world to carryout some super-secret magical-prophetic-supernatural mission…like become a Green Man on the Isle of Face…so he could live a ridiculously long life and mentor his super badass great-grandson to be…

Problem with explanation #1 is that it ignores the risk he would have placed his kids in just save Nettles and blow off his wife.

The problem with Explanation #2 is that 2 dragons are better than 1 and by sending away Nettles he cost the Blacks more Dragons than he took out when he sacrificed Caraxes and himself also taking out the Blacks best military commander. All told it’s a net loss.

The problem with explanation #3 is that it’s a highly speculative crackpot theory to think Daemon learned of some prophecy-vision-wisdom-knowledge-stuff and then decide to abandon his entire family in the middle of a war. Nevertheless it’s seems possible. This section of the text references themes connected to the old gods and North more so than the rest. For instance:

Hospitality/Guests Rights

Upon receiving the Queen’s letter demanding Nettles head Daemon was apparently ready to violate guest’s rights as he brandished his sword before learning the Maester had come to him “in secret.” Nevertheless when Daemon takes his leave of Maidenpool the next morning he specifically thanks Lord Mooton for his “hospitality.” IIRC, this is the first and I believe only reference to hospitality or guest rights in tPatQ.

Wierwoods

Daemon spends 13 days alone, aside from Caraxes, in Harrenhal. Every passing day he made a slash in the Wierwood. These are described as “old wounds” that “bleed afresh every spring.” Clearly Daemon spent some alone time with old gods before he disappeared. This is also the only reference to a weirwood in tPatQ, IIRC.

Seeing

There is also an emphasis on faces and seeing in this section. Daemon says to Lord Mooton “This is the last that you will see me.” Despite having spread the word that he was alone at Harrenhal when Daemon asks how Aemond found him, “’My lady’ Aemond answered. ‘She saw you in a storm cloud, in a mountain pool at dusk, in the fire we lit to cook our suppers, She sees much and more, my Alys.’” Thus a “seer” was the only witness to their fight. They battle above the Gods Eye and the Isle of Faces. In the battle Aemond’s lack of one eye impairs his vision and he gets blinded by the setting sun, and finally he’s stabbed through his one-blinded-eye. All of which appears to have been Daemon’s plan.

Who’s the real “seer” here?

Aemond supposedly has a seer with him and calls his uncle a fool for having come alone, yet it seems as though he has fallen into Daemon’s tarp. I think Tze is probably correct in arguing Lady Alys Rivers is unreliable source regarding her own prowess as a “seer” however the presences of a “seer” claiming to see through storm clouds, mountain pools, and cook fires (ie multiple objects) in this section does probably suggest that someone: Nettles, Daemon, or their offspring are potential seers capable of seeing through more than just one source/object…and Bloodraven’s just so happens have 1001 eyes and be Daemon’s Great Grandson twice over.

:agree:

This is a great post, I absolutely agree with it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I really didn't get a romantic sense from Nettles and Daemon's relationship. I also didn't get a familial one. Actually, I couldn't put my finger on it until the later mention of Addam going to the Isle of faces, and then I immediately thought that it was Nettles instead. We are told she turned her dragon east from Maidenpool, but she could have easily doubled back. Once I really started thinking about this, I realized that the feeling I got from their (Daemon and Nettles') relationship was Mentor/Student. It would be very interesting if Nettles was connected to the Old Gods and the Greenseers and she was training Daemon.

I agree with the above posters who hoped Daemon survived. I really want to know more about him, and it would be interesting to me if he ended up on the Isle of Faces. His actions at Harrenhal are odd, and this idea of a greater destiny would clear up a lot of things for me. Weirdly, the Blood and Cheese incident reminded me of Jaime and Bran. Can't wait for the World Book now!

[The Faceless Bard]

Also, no mention of the Reeds, however the description of Nettles makes me think of the Reeds, along with a (stretching it)similarity between the name nettles and Reeds....

[maidenandwarrior]

Also, did anyone come away from this feeling sorry for the dragons? I basically spent the whole time thinkng that we have been brainwashed to see them as the ultimate killing machines, when they really weren't, unless provoked. I am actually hoping they get a second chance, rather than heading straight for extinction again.

I'm wondering too how a Second Dance will play out with only three dragons. It seems like it will feel as though the stakes are much lower.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

:agree:

This is a great post, I absolutely agree with it.

I don't know about anyone else, but I really didn't get a romantic sense from Nettles and Daemon's relationship. I also didn't get a familial one. Actually, I couldn't put my finger on it until the later mention of Addam going to the Isle of faces, and then I immediately thought that it was Nettles instead. We are told she turned her dragon east from Maidenpool, but she could have easily doubled back. Once I really started thinking about this, I realized that the feeling I got from their (Daemon and Nettles') relationship was Mentor/Student. It would be very interesting to me if Nettles was connected to the Old Gods and the Greenseers and she was training Daemon.

I agree with the above posters who hoped Daemon survived. I really want to know more about him, and it would be interesting to me if he ended up on the Isle of Faces. His actions at Harrenhal are odd, and this idea of a greater destiny would clear up a lot of things for me. Weirdly, although I was deeply uncomfortable with the Blood and Cheese incident, it reminded me of Jaime and Bran, and the idea that a character can be a lot more complicated than one action, even when it is a horrendous one like harming a child. Can't wait for the World Book now!

I thought the Daemon/Nettles relationship was romantic. It reminded me of Lyanna. She tamed her dragon, ran off with her Prince even though he was married to someone else. Maybe she had a baby by Daemon.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Just finished, tried to take my time with it, as if that would make it last longer, but like that, it's gone. tze, I hope you don't mind if I quote some of your analysis, which is full of it's usual brilliance and spunk.

I'm curious to know when Viserys reappeared. Was it relatively soon after Aegon II's restoration---a year or two, perhaps?---or did he only "emerge" say, 5 or 10 years down the road? If the latter, it would have some very interesting potential implications, particularly as we last "saw" him in the custody of a pirate from Lys, i.e. that place known for producing people with Valyrian coloring.

This was on the back of my mind throughout the story from the time of his capture, but by the time it was finished I was so excited I had forgotten. Now that you mention it I was surprised to see it was not addressed.

It very much looks to me like people in Westeros want the Targs to essentially be skinchangers, because they want to believe the Targs were special and magical, "closer to gods than the common run of men". They want there to exist some romantic "soul bond" (for lack of a better term) between the dragons and the riders. (Ironically, given the Faith's attitude toward actual wargs, the same people spreading these sorts of legends would probably be calling a holy crusade against the people who actually can have this sort of relationship with an animal.) But as readers, I think we need to look at these legends, look at what we're actually shown with the dragons, compare it to what we see with the actual skinchangers, and try and suss out the actual situation. I think if GRRM wanted to show us a warg-ish bond (as opposed to showing us that the Targaryens' subjects wanted to believe there was some warg-ish bond), he wouldn't have written elements in here as he did.

Furthermore, did anybody else go "now wait just a minute here" at the whole Joffrey/Syrax thing?

So let me see if I understand this properly. People were supposedly throwing stones, spears, and arrows at Syrax, "maddening" her. The dragon was "twisting" under Joffrey, and we know that was because he was an "unfamiliar rider" and not because of those aforementioned stones/spears/arrows hitting her . . . why, exactly? Joffrey ends up falling off a larger-than-he-was-used-to dragon (that is thrashing around while being attacked!) when he doesn't have a saddle to hold him in place, which . . . doesn't seem that odd to me. And shouldn't the fact that Joffrey was able to mount the dragon in the first place give readers pause? Why would Syrax take off with an unfamiliar rider on her back in the first place if she could somehow sense he was the "wrong" rider? And apparently dragons will attack complete strangers who try to mount them, as we saw with the failed "dragonseeds" and with the people who try to ride Silverwing later on . . . but the only time we see a dragon get mounted by a non-rider who she is accustomed to being around, that person doesn't get attacked. Am I the only one who senses bullshit here?

Gyldayn takes this story as evidence that a dragon will only let one person ride it at a time, but I think if you pull it apart, it starts making less and less sense. Syrax was flying low enough that those stones, spears, and arrows were capable of hitting her, yet Gildayn thinks she must have later "chosen" to descend on the crowd rather than flying away? To me, that looks like evidence Syrax was having difficulty flying because she was already injured. (As I noted upthread, why was Syrax stabled in the Red Keep rather than the Dragonpit?) If Syrax was injured, then this whole sequence of events looks very different. Rhaenyra's "He does not know" comment looks more like "He does not know Syrax is injured" than "He does not know he can't ride my dragon"; after all, how on earth could someone in Joffrey's position have never been told he couldn't just take mom's dragon (or his older brothers' dragons, or his uncle-father Daemon's dragon) for a spin?

The entire section about wargs was really good and made me think of how different the northmen are with regards to their.. I don't even know what to call it, kinship with their warg animals, as opposed to how the Targaryens treat their dragons more like fearsome circus animals.. like the Deadliest Show on Earth. But then that bolded section got me really thinking about Joffrey, and if GRRM was really just trolling all of us with that, especially with the way you phrased it. Sansa thought Joffrey would be the perfect prince for a reason, maybe the author is finally telling us the song that Sansa heard with Joffrey's name, sung in the Great Hall of Winterfell by all those singers, and that's part of the reason why she fell so hard for him. His name was part of the Westerosi perfect prince mythos.

I'm curious to know what happened to the Manderly brothers. One minute they're urging Rhaenyra "to accompany [them] back to White Harbor", which makes it sound like they were leaving her regardless (were they recalled for some reason?), and the next minute Rhaenyra is disembarking from a ship "with her son Aegon, her ladies, and three Queensguard knights, all that was left of her party." What happened to the rest of her party? Did she send them away, did they abandon her, or were they recalled by their lords for some reason? I'd be curious to know what was going on in the North at this point. Dalton Greyjoy didn't appear to take part in the Dance, and I'm wondering if maybe he went the route of Dagon and Balon.

:rofl:

No, they're really, obviously, incontrovertibly not "part-dragon". The two deformed children (which, by the way, are not described as being deformed in the exact same way) operate both to symbolically link Dany to Rhaenyra (as it appears Dany will be playing the "role" of Rhaenyra in the upcoming Dance) and to symbolize the idea that these wars, and seeking the throne, cost (and will cost) these women what was most precious to them---Dany's firstborn son and Rhaenyra's only daughter. (And I feel it necessary to point out that, for all we know, the story of Rhaenyra's child being born deformed is actually entirely Green propaganda.) And why does Visenya supposedly have a hole in her chest instead of a heart? Dragon genes? Come on, now.

I wondered about the northmen and Greyjoys as well. But since she shunned White Harbor I figured the northmen just went home and bent the knee once they heard about Larys Strong's plan.

This was another big thing in the novel. Larys Strong, okay I get it he is like the Varys of 170 years odd ago, but what exactly did GRRM tell Benioff and Weiss, the creators of the television show? So far, from the two creations:

1. The books mention tunnels beneath the Red Keep, constructed by Maegor the Cruel, but never passage out of the city itself

2. Varys produced a map on the show during Season 2's episode, "Blackwater," which was written by GRRM and makes this more confusing, that gave the location of secret tunnels under the city so Tyrion could lead men to attack Stannis, but this has never yet happened in the books.

When you add 1 and 2, you get:

3. Someone in The Winds of Winter or A Dream of Spring, I'm actually going to hedge my bets on Aegon's royal family once Dany comes calling, is going to need to use these tunnels to escape King's Landing during the Second Dance of the Dragons.

I think Varys used these to escape King's Landing after he let Tyrion loose, and it's how he came back to kill Kevan Lannister and Grand Maester Pycelle at the end of A Dance With Dragons.

Oh, and finally, tze, I agree more with your point about the story being Green propaganda than Rhaenrya's baby actually being a malformed and in the shape of a dragon. I doubt there were any survivors to tell the truth of the matter, and if there were, they were "persuaded" to tell a different story. She was starting a war, with the way they were telling it. It was pretty fascinating to watch the entire small council get in line, only for Beesbury to try to leave and get too close of a shave by the Kingmaker, Criston Cole. There was a death I was waiting for.

There was so much propaganda in this story it was amazing. The Queen Who Never Was, her death reads like an obituary. The maester wrote it as if to say, here's one good Targaryen, you can have this one, she died the way you all should die. Now die, you and your dragons both.

I loved it, but I can't wait to read about the Battle of Ice through Theon's tortured soul, and find out about what the hell happened to Jon Snow, and read Sansa's next chapter, and where Arya's headed, and Brienne and Jaime, and DAVOS. But I will wait, through the long winter, and the ones after that.

[Florina Laufeyson]

After Daemon and Aemond's duel in the sky, the dragonpit attack is by far the most visceral imagery for me. How insane and manic those people must have been. But it also blows a huge hole in the idea that dragons are invincible WMDs for whoever possesses them.

Indeed. This means that mundane weapons and people can easily kill dragons as long as theres enough madness and numbers involved. Most of the dragons involved were actually older than Dany's so ummm...yeah. Dragons can die and quickly with enough force.

So... did anyone else think of Varys when reading about Master of Whisperers Larys Clubfoot? His total knowledge of the Red Keeps passages. His manner shifting from glib to somber. His smuggling of a royal prisoner out in a barrel by sea...

Ohhh shit yeah. Clubfoot is Varys' spiritual ancestor in my books. :P Even their names are similar. I wonder....

Some notes:

Rhaenyra and Dany have a lot in common. A lot.

Daemon is a badass. I found it interesting he fell in love with that little Nettles girl and spirited her away. Also, Dark Sister out of fucken nowhere! That shit was found in the God's Eye..OoooOoooOoooo....

Aemond was awesome too.

The Greens win mostly through trickery. Foreshadowing much?

Targaryen blood seems absolutely necessary to ride dragons, but full on Targ blood isnt necessary. Bastards everywhere! BASTARDS! Golly gee. Thanks for the huge nudge, GRRM.

Numbers, in the end, dont matter because people cannot be trusted.

The smallfolk. Do. Not. Underestimate. Them.

Two dragons are better than one. But the older the dragon, the bigger the badass it is.

Hightowers....

Dragon bonding is an odd thing. It is not like warg bonds. It seems shallower. "One cannot know the heart of a dragon." Dragon against dragon is super effective.

Targs arent fireproof. And when they crash, they crash hard.

Dragons have gender. Deal with it.

I'm wondering too how a Second Dance will play out with only three dragons. It seems like it will feel as though the stakes are much lower.

Theres also the impending invasion of the Others to consider. I dont think the Others and a Second Dance are going to happen simultaneously, i do think one of the three dragons wont be a part of the Second Dance. I think its going to be Drogon vs .....probably Rhaegal.

Im beginning to think one of Danys dragons is actually a she-dragon. My vote is for Viserion.

[By the Old Gods Not theNew]

After reading tPatQ I read Jamies ADwD PoV at Raventree and here are some cool things I noticed:

Raventree is surrounded by nettles and sheep bones when Jamie travels through:

As Jaime Lannister and his escort wound through the rolling hills into the vale, little remained of the fields and farms and orchards that had once surrounded Raventree—only mud and ashes, and here and there the blackened shells of homes and mills. Weeds and thorns and nettles grew in that wasteland, but nothing that could be called a crop. Everywhere Jaime looked he saw his father’s hand, even in the bones they sometimes glimpsed beside the road. Most were sheep bones, but there were horses too, and cattle, and now and again a human skull, or a headless skeleton with weeds poking up through its rib cage.

Hoster Blackwood tells Jamie that there’s a statue of Lady Melissa in the godswood at Raventree. And he tells Jamie that Aegon IV granted the "Teats" to her specifically. So it seems as though Lady Melissa is remembered positively at Raventree.

There's also this exchange between Hoster and Jamie about the animosity between Blackwood and Bracken:

Tyrion would like this one. They could talk from dusk to dawn, arguing about books. For a moment his bitterness toward his brother was forgotten, until he remembered what the Imp had done. “So you are fighting over a crown that one of you took from the other back when the Casterlys still held Casterly Rock, is that the root of it? The crown of a kingdom that has not existed for thousands of years?” He chuckled. “So many years, so many wars, so many kings … you’d think someone would have made a peace.”

“Someone did, my lord. Many someones. We’ve had a hundred peaces with the Brackens, many sealed with marriages. There’s Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood. The Old King’s Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That’s how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it.”

“There could be.”

“How, my lord? The old wounds never heal, my father says.”

“My father had a saying too. Never wound a foe when you can kill him. Dead men don’t claim vengeance.”

“Their sons do,” said Hoster, apologetically.

“Not if you kill the sons as well. Ask the Casterlys about that if you doubt me. Ask Lord and Lady Tarbeck, or the Reynes of Castamere. Ask the Prince of Dragonstone.” For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar’s children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

“Is that why you killed all the Starks?”

“Not all,” said Jaime. “Lord Eddard’s daughters live. One has just been wed. The other …”

Brienne, where are you? Have you found her? “… if the gods are good, she’ll forget she was a Stark. She’ll wed some burly blacksmith or fat-faced innkeep, fill his house with children, and never need to fear that some knight might come along to smash their heads against a wall.”

“The gods are good,” his hostage said, uncertainly.

The Old King Jaehaery's peace... some fresh quarrel the Dance of Dragons. Old wounds opened and began to bleed again, Daemon and the Weirwood. So long as men remember, the North Remembers and so do the Blackwood apparently. The red sky reminds jamie of Rhaegar's kids it reminded me of the blood red sky when Daemon and Aemond fight above the Gods Eye.

[Father of Hosts]

Could be that.

The diet of fish is mentioned twice (I think) so it jumped out at me that it might be significant for some reason.

One of Dany's dragons fished on their way to Slaver's bay, if I recall correctly.

[Florina Laufeyson]

After reading tPatQ I read Jamies ADwD PoV at Raventree and here some cool things i noticed.

Hoster Blackwood tells Jamie in ADwD There’s a statue of Lady Melissa in the godswood at Raventree. And he tells Jamie that Aegon IV granted the "Teats" to her specifically. So it seems as though Lady Melissa is remembered positively at Raventree.

There's also this exchange between Hoster and Jamie about the animosity between Blackwood and Bracken:

The Old King Jaehaery's peace... some fresh quarrel the Dance of Dragons. Old wounds opened and began to bleed again, Daemon and the Weirwood. So long as men remember, the North Remembers and so do the Blackwood apparently. The red sky reminds jamie of Rhaegar's kids it reminded me of the blood red sky when Daemon and Aemond fight above the Gods Eye.

Raventree is surrounded by nettles and sheep bones when Jamie travels through in ADwD:

Ohhh cool find! Nettles and a connection to Raventree is very interesting and ties with Bloodraven like someone said up thread. Jaime and Hoster seem to almost be discussing how these kinds of wars break out.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

A thought about the Cannibal. Why didn't the Targaryens gather a group of dragons to kill it? They don't seem to be afraid of riding dragons into battle against other dragons even when it is hopeless. If they brought four or five dragons to bear on the Cannibal it would have been no contest.

The reason to do it is that the Cannibal feeds on other dragons and has been known to come down on Dragonstones hatcheries to "gorge" on hatchlings. If dragons are precious, why would the Targaryens let this one old wild dragon repeatedly kill multiple young dragons?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Cannibal was too tricky to catch. That and everyone on Dragonstone seemed terrified of him. "Leave Cannibal be and he will leave us be." is pretty much how they see it.