[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[Frozentree]

Not sure how I should feel about it. Was it supposed to be a story or a facto-graphic narration? I mostly enjoyed it, but I would enjoy it more if it had its genre more decided.

A mini-series of cool moments and battles of Dance of the Dragons interconnected with few lines of general event narration in-between? Epic.

A concise, detailed description of the war from disinterested perspective, with the most epic of quotes mixed in? Epic.

But before I gained enough insight into the situation, I was suddenly reading an epic battle between two dragon-riders. Then, while I was consumed by the action and awesomeness, it ended abruptly because we had to move on to different event.

Don't get me wrong, as I said already I enjoyed it overall, the stories were good, if little too short, and it gave us a good deal of informations (which will certainly prove invaluable for theorycrafting for the ever-present parallels), if interrupted from time to time.

Lastly, I must say how unfair it is for poor Aegon to be called "dragonsbane". I wonder how would other people fare in preserving a species with like 1 living individual?

[sillent]

It's worth noting that Aegon actually resisted taking the crown, insisting it belonged to his sister, and only committed to it when he was convinced that because of the uncertain legitimacy of her eldest sons she would have to get rid of him and his children to clear their way to the throne...

... at least according to one account, anyways. ;)

Yeah found the story super sad because of how it was all started. Pretty much if Aegon and Rhaenyra could have a conversation without the greens bad-mouthing her the whole thing could have been sorted out. It was pretty much cut short by Aemond and Blood & Cheese. Though I did find it kind of odd how Aegon resisted taking the crown at first, but once he was convinced he became pretty hostile towards his sister even before any blood was shed. It would be understandable if the hate started after the Blood & Cheese incident, but his switch seemed to go off way before.

[History of Westeros]

It's not definitive...because there's this thing called pruning...that's not what he was doing...but....we have ZERO evidence...

It is strongly implied that the dark-eyed youth "sliced" the arrows off of living branches of the heart tree. He didn't break them off, he didn't find them on the ground, he "sliced three branches off the weirwood." You don't even believe your own alternative explanation. Plus this seems to have been repeated to the extent that Bloodraven armed the Raven's Teeth in war w/ sufficient arrows to make it rain over the Redgrass Field w/ their 300 bows (i see now you missed that example, and i think he used living weirwood branches not stumps). It's hard to see him relying on salvaged materials to supply the war effort. There's a simpler explanation: he cut off living weirwood branches to make hundreds if not thousands of arrows for war and in later years intimidation.

Slicing doesn't indicate permanent damage to the tree, Daemon's slashes are permanent, as we know. (and fyi, slicing/cutting is a part of pruning. You remove dead/weak/excess branches to make others stronger. It's an ancient practice, and removal requires cutting or slicing). We also don't know that this dark-eyed youth is devout. He's a youth and young people rarely are devout. I realize this is argumentative, but the point is that we don't know. That's why there is room for theorizing.

As to your point about the source of the Raven's Teeth arrows, yes we have no proof of where they came from. Stumps and dead trees are possible, as is the possibility that cutting on the trees is not a problem religion-wise. It's also possible cutting a Heart Tree is sacrilegious, while a normal un-activated weirwood is no big deal.

The theory is not helped by the fact that the Raven's Teeth used weirwood arrows, but it isn't necessarily hurt by it either. You are casting doubt, not disproving something.

Your buffalo example only proves my point:

From your perspective, relying on what you know about Native American's, Daemon's actions are interpreted as sacrilegious, a kin to killing buffalo for sport.

From my perspective based on stuff from the text, the face carvings and the use of weirwood for tools/weapons (the arrows seem to come from living weirwoods), by known followers of the old gods, it's not necessarily sacrilegious to cut or carve into a weirwood. Therefore Daemon's actions are nothing like killing buffalo for Sport. Such an analogy brings to mind Roose Bolton's final days in Harrenhal more than it does Daemon's.

See my point about the source of the arrows and why weirwoods and heart trees might be seen differently. Second, we are still only guessing at their source as living trees, so you can't take this too far. It's not important to attack the minutiae of a theory that is already clearly stated to be a guess based on common sense.

You yourself admit that it is "not necessarily sacrilege" which is kinda like saying, "you might be wrong". Well, as to that, I knew that the moment I posted this in the first place. Anyone who proposes a theory recognizes the possibility they are wrong (or should, anyway).

We have zero definitive examples of known devout followers of the Old Gods cutting, hurting, damaging, doing *anything* to a Heart Tree. We have one guy, whose name and personality we have no information on slicing off branches, and this somehow goes a long way towards proving that non-face carvings on a Heart Tree are not sacrilegious? I don't see it. At best, you're casting mild doubt on a theory, that's not saying much.

And no I don't see where you're coming from with my buffalo example. I think it is a rather fitting example that lends a lot of possibility to this theory, but does nothing to prove it. Killing a buffalo for sport is not ok, killing one for food, shelter, tools is ok. Painting the ceiling on the Sistine Chapel is holy, someone spray painting 13 marks on a different wall in the Chapel is sacrilege. Cutting a face into a weirwood is holy, slashing 13 marks in the tree is...? We don't know but there's a decent enough chance it's the same kind of sacrilege.

I have already stated at least twice that there's no evidence for my theory, but the common sense argument is very strong. In an nutshell I'm suggesting that cutting marks on a holy item is quite possibly sacrilege (not exactly a leap of logic) despite other forms of cutting being acceptable (because there's only one known acceptable form of carvings, the faces). That casts doubt on whether or not Daemon had a connection to the Old Gods.

Daemon's connection to the Old Gods is a far bigger stretch and also has no real evidence, yet I still consider it a valid theory because it cannot be explicitly disproved and it isn't crackpot.

Same goes for the sacrilege theory. Doubt has been cast, but nothing comes close to disproving it, thus it remains.

[RumHam]

Also about carving into heart trees. If that was acceptable behavior among followers of the old gods, wouldn't at least some of the heart trees we've seen have carvings on them? (Other than the faces, of course.) For example nobody ever mentions the names of the kings of winter being carved into Winterfell's tree or anything like that.

[Gil Galad]

This is maybe one of my favorite things I have read of GRRMs. Wow.

[John Hulboy]

gave book to my dad to read today for xmas waiting for him to call me.i found the book pretty gruesome when familys battle nothing good comes out of it.it was the beginning of the demise of the targs.definitely gave me a new prespective on the dragons.

[not in the face]

How old was Cregan Stark? He fought Aemon the Dragonknight. Was Cregan an old man at the time they dueled? I imagine he had to be young since he never took to the battlefield but the the Blackwood kid was 11 and was in the thick of it. Then again there could be the Stark in Winterfell thing that kept him from marching south.

[RumHam]

How old was Cregan Stark? He fought Aemon the Dragonknight. Was Cregan an old man at the time they dueled? I imagine he had to be young since he never took to the battlefield but the the Blackwood kid was 11 and was in the thick of it. Then again there could be the Stark in Winterfell thing that kept him from marching south.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100284-spoilers-the-princess-and-the-queen-complete-spoilers-discussion/page-62#entry5226241

Barristan Selmy was beating men half his age at 60.

Nothing prevents Cregan Stark from being an old man when he fought Aemon... nor does anything prevent the Dragonknight from being, perhaps, somewhat exaggerative about an old man's ability; he was the very soul of courtesy, after all.

[Nezzer]

How old was Cregan Stark? He fought Aemon the Dragonknight. Was Cregan an old man at the time they dueled? I imagine he had to be young since he never took to the battlefield but the the Blackwood kid was 11 and was in the thick of it. Then again there could be the Stark in Winterfell thing that kept him from marching south.

Maybe it's not even the same Cregan. The one that defeated Aemon could be his son, or maybe even his grandson.

[RumHam]

Maybe it's not even the same Cregan. The one that defeated Aemon could be his son, or maybe even his grandson.

Ran confirmed it was the same guy.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Maybe Cregan had no heirs or siblings at this time? Several of the Lord Paramounts are very young during the dance. Lord Tyrell is pretty much a babe at the breast, the Lord Reaper of Pyke is 16, and the Lady of the Vale is a young maid.

[CosimaistheHottest]

Maybe Cregan had no heirs or siblings at this time? Several of the Lord Paramounts are very young during the dance. Lord Tyrell is pretty much a babe at the breast, the Lord Reaper of Pyke is 16, and the Lady of the Vale is a young maid.

But how young was she? I doubt that young since she didn't have a regent. Maiden of the Vale is a title. It just meant she was not married during the time of her rule.

[papirico52]

Do you guys think there are hidden dragons in the present ASOIAF novels?

[Lion of the West]

Do you guys think there are hidden dragons in the present ASOIAF novels?

I surely hope there are not. One of the big things with Daenerys' arc is that she is the last Targaryen. More Targaryens jumping up will steal her thunder.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

But how young was she? I doubt that young since she didn't have a regent. Maiden of the Vale is a title. It just meant she was not married during the time of her rule.

I’m assuming she is pretty young (20’s maybe), since she is ruling and there are no male Arryns around at all. I would think she is at least still in her child bearing years? She had to produce an heir(s) or else it would have been an end to house Arryn.

[Slayer of Lies]

Do you guys think there are hidden dragons in the present ASOIAF novels?

I surely hope there are not. One of the big things with Daenerys' arc is that she is the last Targaryen. More Targaryens jumping up will steal her thunder.

That four dragons survived the Dance seems important to me, and that several of the dragons in P&Q are wild (e.g. Cannibal) certainly suggests that an old, powerful and probably riderless dragon residing somewhere in Essos (say, the Sorrows) is not something to simply rule out.

I think that giving Dany's dragons something more challenging to fight than ice zombies would be an excellent late surprise on GRRM's part, and the fact that multiple dragons survived the Dance (specifically four) only elevates that possibility, IMO.

[Hardstone]

Was it confirmed that the 4 final dragons survive the Dance? We still have 6 undocumented months to go before it ends.

Sheepstealer is obviously a question mark and I think Ran only confirmed Silverwing survives beyond 131. The Cannibal and the Unknown may not live.

Plus, there are still the malformed dragons to be hatched over the next 20 years.

[Slayer of Lies]

Was it confirmed that the 4 final dragons survive the Dance? We still have 6 undocumented months to go before it ends.

Sheepstealer is obviously a question mark and I think Ran only confirmed Silverwing survives beyond 131. The Cannibal and the Unknown may not live.

Plus, there are still the malformed dragons to be hatched over the next 20 years.

Fair enough. It was confirmed that four dragons survived the telling of TPATQ, at least, and are the very ones you mentioned.

Sheepstealer (who was ~80 during the dance) would be ~250 if still alive today, and has the “tidy” closing line of “never to be seen again at court or castle.” Of course there’s room for error in Archmaester Gyldayn’s tale, but this is as good of an indicator as any that at least this dragon might still be alive, as “court or castle” aren’t the only places for a dragon to live it out its remaining days is Westeros/Essos.

Additionally, while Sheepstealer is the closest thing to a text-supported potential survival, it seems to me that The Cannibal might make a “better nemesis” to Dany’s dragons, if he survived, being known to feast on young dragons…

But I’m not overextending a claim that any of the four surviving dragons from TPATQ “definitely” survived that long, because we don’t yet have proof.

My main point in my previous post is that there seems to be enough “grey area” post DOTD that it’s worth simply being “prepared” for a fourth dragon in TWOW/ADOS, and possibly even one that survived the Dance. Further, if there’s going to be another dragon in ASOIAF, it seems to me the overarching “story of Westeros” would be best served by tying that dragon’s identity back to one that was set up in a novella like TPATQ, as opposed to introducing a new beast with no known backstory.

[Razha]

I think the entire first Dance of Dragon is a ripe material for HBO series - there is an interesting story, some terrific scenes and at the same time enough ambiguity and room for improvisation and additions to the story - maybe after GoT is over HBO can make another series based on this story?

only downside - it would be probably very expensive to have so many GGI dragon fights

[Nezzer]

I think the entire first Dance of Dragon is a ripe material for HBO series - there is an interesting story, some terrific scenes and at the same time enough ambiguity and room for improvisation and additions to the story - maybe after GoT is over HBO can make another series based on this story?

only downside - it would be probably very expensive to have so many GGI dragon fights

I think it would be extremely expensive. It would require an even larger budget than LotR.