Why Didn't Tywin say Joffrey Choked?

[Antler's Fury]

I was rereading the Purple Wedding scene in preparation for Season 4 of GoT, and I was wondering why Tywin didn't just declare the whole thing to be an unfortunate choking accident rather than a poisoning. The whole point of that extravagant and hideously expensive wedding was to exhibit the power of House Lannister to the world, making the king's dropping dead at his own feast embarrassing enough. However, the king's being murdered at his own feast makes the incident even more damaging, because it shows that House Lannister cannot even protect its most important member from from his enemies in his own castle, surrounded by his Kingsguard. The idea that Tyrion did it is simply twisting the knife, because it shows the world that House Lannister has significant internal disputes and weaknesses that manifested themselves in successfull assasination, showing that the House is tearing itself apart at the seams and is not nearly as strong as Tywin would have everyone believe.

However, Lady Alerie provided the easiest method of controlling the fallout. "He choked, sweetling. He choked on the pie. It was naught to do with you. He choked. We all saw." Indeed, Alerie's comment seems to have accurately reflected the view of the Wedding's attendants. The Kingsguard, the Tyrells, and everyone else seemed to think that Joffrey was choking on the pie. The idea that he was poisoned was only considered when Cersei said so, and even then, she had no hard evidence. Considering that Tywin's maesters were the ones who actually did the autopsy, why didn't he just bribe/threaten them into silence and shut Cersei up, sending Tyrion back to Casterly Rock for good measure? Even if Tywin privately had reason to believe that Tyrion was responsible, then the solution would be to have him quietly murdered or sent to the Wall. The trial only dragged out a public embarrassment that humiliated the Lannisters, something that we know Tywin would not have wanted. So why not prevent it by declaring that Joffrey did indeed choke? It's still an embarrassing incident, but no more than it needs to be, and crucially preserves the illusion of Lannister power, which Tywin wants.

[Kasporio]

Tywin didnt had the time to figure out and Cersei immediatly ordered Tyrion's arrest.

Then someone had to be guilty. Moreover, after autopsy, it was clear Joff had been poisened.

Mace wants him dead, Cersei too, Olenna needed a scapegoat, Tywin probably saw a way to get rid off the son he hates.

Well, this plan backfired, anyway.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Maybe he was pissed at Tyrion and wanted it publicly known he doesn't accept Tyrion.

I think it was all because Tyrion took Shae to KL when he was specifically told not to.

Remember the tent scene where Tywin shows Tyrion respect for the first time. He's badmouthing Cersei and Joff and telling Tyrion to go be the Hand and keep them under control.

This was a great father/son moment IMO.

So why when Tywin returns to KL, he immediately goes back to treating Tyrion like a stunted fool.

Why???? He did a good job as Hand and was important in the Blackwater battle.

I think when he heard about Shae he got real mad like this kid hasn't changed a bit. Still falling in love with whores! I'm done win him!

[Antler's Fury]

Maybe he was pissed at Tyrion and wanted it publicly known he doesn't accept Tyrion.

I think it was all because Tyrion took Shae to KL when he was specifically told not to.

Remember the tent scene where Tywin shows Tyrion respect for the first time. He's badmouthing Cersei and Joff and telling Tyrion to go be the Hand and keep them under control.

This was a great father/son moment IMO.

So why when Tywin returns to KL, he immediately goes back to treating Tyrion like a stunted fool.

Why????

I think when he heard about Shae he got real mad like this kid hasn't changed a bit. Still falling in love with whores! I'm done win him!

But he could disinherit Tyrion by doing a Randyll and sending him to the Wall on pain of death. There's no need to accuse him of regicide and kinslaying for that.

[Facebookless Man]

Cersei didn't really consult him on the matter IIRC...

[Minsc]

It is possible that Tywin actually belives that Tyrion did murder Joffrey.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

But he could disinherit Tyrion by doing a Randyll and sending him to the Wall on pain of death. There's no need to accuse him of regicide and kinslaying for that.

I don't think it would be that easy to just to make the former Hand of the King disappear without an explanation.

I suppose he could have him murdered, but theres still Bronn and whoever is loyal to him to deal with, he could buy them all off but still would require explanation of Tyrions dead body.

If it was back on CR, Tywin could get away with more but this is KL, where more eyes that aren't Lannister loyal are watching.

[Fat Mac]

Tywin couldn't let the poisoning of his grandson go unpunished. Even though Joffrey was who he was, and it would have been easier to sweep his death under the rug, he was a Lannister.

[Northernmonkey]

He might have believed that Tyrion was behind it, but I doubt he'd believe that Tyrion and Sansa came up with the plan alone - he must have wondered whether Dorne, the Tyrell's or someone else had a hand in it as well.

[Antler's Fury]

Cersei didn't really consult him on the matter IIRC...

I know she didn't, but I'm saying that he could have strong armed her into accepting the idea that Joffrey did indeed choke, if he said there was no evidence of poisoning.

It is possible that Tywin actually belives that Tyrion did murder Joffrey.

Tywin couldn't let the poisoning of his grandson go unpunished. Even though Joffrey was who he was, and it would have been easier to sweep his death under the rug, he was a Lannister.

Sure, but Tywin is all about preserving the power of the family. Accusing Tyrion weakens the family. Joff is dead. Tywin has to think about those remaining family members.

I don't think it would be that easy to just to make the former Hand of the King disappear without an explanation.

I suppose he could have him murdered, but theres still Bronn and whoever is loyal to him to deal with, he could buy them all off but still would require explanation of Tyrions dead body.

If it was back on CR Tywin could get away with more but this is KL where more eyes that aren't Lannister loyal are watching.

Then send him to Casterly Rock, or on a trip to the Free Cities like he always wanted, or something. Anything really to get him out of KL and out of sight.

[Scrambled Aegon]

Actually a very good point. It would have been much smarter for Tywin to say that.

I think that, like Mr Bell said, he didn't want to see it go unpunished. So his pride took precedence over what was probably the smart thing to do.

[Raven in Winter]

Well if the Queen Regent or Queen Mother (whatever her title is after Tywin showed up) makes a public accusation I would think there would have to be a trial or something.

[Minsc]

I know she didn't, but I'm saying that he could have strong armed her into accepting the idea that Joffrey did indeed choke, if he said there was no evidence of poisoning.

Sure, but Tywin is all about preserving the power of the family. Accusing Tyrion weakens the family

And Cersei would tell him to get bent as she is positive Tyrion is guilty nor is Tywin going to allow his grandson's murderer go free.

[DaarioKnowsBest]

Could go both ways, what message would it send that a king could be murdered and it can be overlooked as a choking accident?

What's next? Hey let's kill Jamie! Stupid Tywin will just look the other way and say he fell off his horse!

[CassBlackfyre]

Plus Tyrion dying/taking the black means he is no longer the heir to casterly rock

[Guillotine]

i'm pretty sure they cut open Joff's throat to show there was no food choking him so Tywin couldn't just bareface it after that

[Iona]

I don't really know... which is more embarrassing - a king is poisoned at his wedding feast, or a king binges on wedding pie and chokes on it. :/

[Minstral]

I don't really know... which is more embarrassing - a king is poisoned at his wedding feast, or a king binges on wedding pie and chokes on it. :/

It at the least doesn't cause the scandal of Tyrion's trial...

Papa Lannister has shown that he has an extremely spiteful nature, and will lash out at those that he believes have wronged him. He unleashed Clegane on the Riverlands for Tyrion's abduction, and event that could have been averted verbally, when he could have been faced by a threat of a Stark-Tully-Arryn alliance (he has no way of knowing Lysa would not take part). It's this trait that Cersei inherited from her father, and in this case they were given an opportunity to vent their bile.

[otherbeef]

actually it makes sense. Tyrion is forever an outcast to the Lannisters.

letting Tyrion take the fall as the outcast of the family looks better than having golden child Queen Regent Cersei publicly clipped of power by saying "lol no it's fine he choked" after she had Tyrion arrested. and it would look awfully suspicious if he got rid of Tyrion either by death or sending the wall or exile right afterwards.

plus it would have removed further Tyrion-Cersei infighting that was unknown at the time.

[Antler's Fury]

Well if the Queen Regent or Queen Mother (whatever her title is after Tywin showed up) makes a public accusation I would think there would have to be a trial or something.

But if they "actually found" pigeon pie in his windpipe, Tywin could just say his daughter was delirious from grief or something.

And Cersei would tell him to get bent as she is positive Tyrion is guilty

And Tywin would tell her to shut up and do as he says, much as he did when she resisted getting remarried.

nor is Tywin going to allow his grandson's murderer go free.

What does he gain from punishing Tyrion aside from showing the world that the mighty Tywin Lannister can't even control his own family?

Could go both ways, what message would it send that a king could be murdered and it can be overlooked as a choking accident?

What's next? Hey let's kill Jamie! Stupid Tywin will just look the other way and say he fell off his horse!

But Tywin doesn't know that it wasn't Tyrion who did it. So as long as he keeps Tyrion away from court, he can do no more damage as far as Tywin is concerned. If he felt that it was absolutely necessary to reveal that Joff was murdered, then he need not accuse Tyrion. He could blame Dorne, for instance, and arrest Oberyn, as Oberyn himself thought could have happened. Or why not try Tyrion and make the case intentionally weak and acquit him?

i'm pretty sure they cut open Joff's throat to show there was no food choking him so Tywin couldn't just bareface it after that

But that happened in private, IIRC, with only Tywin and his maesters as witnesses. So, he could cover it up, as I suggested.

actually it makes sense. Tyrion is forever an outcast to the Lannisters.

He was already an outcast, as far as Tywin and the world were concerned. Accusing him means that the Lannisters are perpetually humiliated as a house that had all the power but literally couldn't keep themselves from murdering each other.

having golden child Queen Regent Cersei publicly clipped of power

...is exactly what Tywin wants. He does not want Cersei interfering in governance.

it would look awfully suspicious if he got rid of Tyrion either by death or sending the wall or exile right afterwards

So send him to Braavos to deal with the Iron Bank debts. He is Master of Coin, after all, so it wouldn't look suspicious. Or let him and Sansa go on a trip, as Tyrion wanted. Anything to get him out of the capital.

plus it would have removed further Tyrion-Cersei infighting that was unknown at the time.

You don't need to execute Tyrion just to get him and Cersei away from each other.