kingCotton66 Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 both have similar vows in that they require men to take no wifes and inherit no lands, but a king released barristan could a king release a member of the nights watch. If not what was the ultimate point of releasing barristan since jaime refused the same out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaselPie Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Selmy did not want to be released. Perhaps that's the difference between Selmy and Jaime. Selmy being released was a political decision... perhaps that's the similarity between Selmy and Jon. Yes, I think a Monarch could release someone from their NW vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 both have similar vows in that they require men to take no wifes and inherit no lands, but a king released barristan could a king release a member of the nights watch. If not what was the ultimate point of releasing barristan since jaime refused the same out? The kingsguard is sworn to the IT, meaning the king has authority over them and thus could technically release without the kingsguard's permission. The Night's Watch is a sworn independent movement without any direct allegiance to any king, thus a king would need the Night's Watch permission to release on their members. And as the Night's Watch attempts to stay neutral in southern(anything bellow the wall) affairs they are likely somewhat picky on what requests they would allow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 No, Jon will either abandon the NW, sacrificing his own honor for the good of the realm, or the NW will have been obliterated entirely thereby freeing him of the then non-existent vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Dead Just Broken Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Agreed. Selmy was kicked out of the Kingsguard by his boss. Jon doesn't have a boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 But Jon is dead, so he is released from his vows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Dayne's Honor Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 But Jon is dead, so he is released from his vows...GET THE HELL OUT! NOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Robb pointed out this very "blueprint" for leaving the NW when discussing the matter with Cat. The Kingsguard join for life, until Selmy is dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 But Jon is dead, so he is released from his vows... Well, if he is dead then it doesn't matter then cannot do anything as a corpse. Also, there is nothing that indicates that the Watch's vows end at death even if the figure later comes back to life (like suppose their heart stops for a couple seconds). Finally, if that is used as excuse to get Jon out of his vows then his story is the most contrived piece of garbage in the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Well, if he is dead then it doesn't matter then cannot do anything as a corpse. Also, there is nothing that indicates that the Watch's vows end at death even if the figure later comes back to life (like suppose their heart stops for a couple seconds). Finally, if that is used as excuse to get Jon out of his vows then his story is the most contrived piece of garbage in the series. Why not ? Bran is "dead", and Jon can be "dead" too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Well, if he is dead then it doesn't matter then cannot do anything as a corpse. Also, there is nothing that indicates that the Watch's vows end at death even if the figure later comes back to life (like suppose their heart stops for a couple seconds). Finally, if that is used as excuse to get Jon out of his vows then his story is the most contrived piece of garbage in the series.no. Those stories belong to either Tyrion or Arya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Addam of Hull Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Yeah, I think Jon being released from his vows because of technicality is narratively weak. If Martin's goal is to eventually have Jon break from the Watch, there are other, better ways to accomplish that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Why not ? Bran is "dead", and Jon can be "dead" too Bran's death was someone else being killed, Jon's death is him being multiply stabbed himself. no. Those stories belong to either Tyrion or Arya Jon's story benefits from that just as often, and it being written that dying only works to benefit him would just take the cake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe42m1 Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 I believe that the King can release someone from an oath or vow if they are under his jurisdiction. Since the Night's Watch does not answer to any king, its much trickier. I would expect they would need both absolution from the king, as well as permission from the Lord Commander. Since Jon is LC, I would expect he could do whatever he wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sertravisredbeard Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 I think the series is riddled with exceptions to honor bound oaths and traditions being broken, for both good and bad reasons. Robert rebelling against his king, Ned adopting Jon if R+L=J is true, Jon providing help to Stannis, the Riverlands joining Robb's rebellion against the Iron Throne (all good), and then Cersei disregarding Robert's final words, Joffrey dismissing Barristan in favor of Sandor, the Freys perpetrating the Red Wedding (all bad). Martin's made a point of turning honor on its head for whatever reason throughout the books. If Jon survives he can do whatever he wants. It's obvious some of the honor codes established in Westeros need to be broken somtimes in order to do the right thing. And it's obvious that sometimes the "legal" thing is wrong. Whichever reason Jon decides to use to justify his leaving the Watch, if he does, will be understandable. I'm partial to the "You assholes just stabbed me, I'm taking my wolf and my new wildling buddies and our giants and going to my family's castle. We'll let you get killed by the Others while we prepare for the War for the Dawn. Sorry for being such a shitty Lord Commander that doesn't live up to the sterling standards expected by Bowen Marsh, Alliser Thorne, Janos Slynt and drunken Septon Chayle. Assclowns." reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJamesBond Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 It does appear that Jon might end up expelled from the NW if he survives. It is very unlikely, but possible.The NW is sworn to the IT in that they "serve the realm" which is ruled by the IT. That being said, they don't take sides in disputes over who sits on the IT. It appears that the NW is explicitly set up to prevent the IT or anyone else from being able to cancel out a NW vow.The vow extends for "all nights to come" which would seem to mean that it stays in effect for life plus any "second life".It is possible that the White Walkers are beaten and Jon is released from his vows, but that seems to painless and without conflict. I think the story will basically force Jon to choose between his vow and being able to do more good for his family and the north by breaking his vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minstral Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 When laws and oaths are ambiguous, it usually is because those with the clout to get things to work in their favor. Really, if Jon survives the Ides of Marsh and there are people baying at him to leave and join the Northern efforts I don't think he would deny it or the rest of the Watch would stop him. A stupid group (that happens to be somewhat influential) don't want him there, and there is a strong indication that the Northern nobility may want him (due to whatever plans Robb made for him) so there is enough clout if it benefits both sides. That is more of a concrete reason then the oft repeated "death absolves him" nonsense. One aspect that GRRM has hammered again and again is that honor is worthless when it is invoked at the expense of all things. However, that is not to say it is certain that Jon will leave the Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevumar Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 We've seen plenty of hints that the proper authorities will release a party from a vow if the king requests it. There are precedents for this possibility in the Kingsguard and among the Maesters. It's not something you'd want to do often, since vows would begin to lose their significance, but if the king is willing to spend the political capital, it can be achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am of the Night Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 GET THE HELL OUT! NOW!Roflmao!!!!!!!We'll spoken, ser! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose The Weddingcrasher Posted December 3, 2013 Share Posted December 3, 2013 Note how Barristan didn't recognize the validity of his release and found the solution to this dilemma in what was basically rejoining the same institution. An option Jon wouldn't have Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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