most socially liberal/conservative factions/houses by modern standards

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i saw an interesting thread discussing if stannis appeals to those with a more conservative ideology, so I thought for fun, we could rank the factions from the most socially (not fiscally) liberal/progressive houses and factions to the most conservative...we're talking bill maher to pat robertson

most liberal

team renly

robb's starks

dany's 'targs

dorne

highgarden

riverrun

littlefinger

varys/team aegon

"modern/current" northerners

bobby b's/neds baratheons

tywin/joffs lannisters

team greyjoy (minus euron/asha)

nights watch

team stannis

most conservative

edit:would be awesome if we can avoid turning this into a marriage equality, gun control, obama care debate and keep it strictly in context of the houses!

[Caggo Corpsekiller]

Well the Tyrells are Liberal for a certainty.

Tywin Lannister seems like a conservative, and definitely Stannis as well.

The Starks love trees and support the local charity (nights watch) so they are Liberal.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Well the Tyrells are Liberal for a certainty.

Tywin Lannister seems like a conservative, and definitely Stannis as well.

The Starks love trees and support the local charity (nights watch) so they are Liberal.

Stannis is not a conservative, there is a whole thread on that.

[Sullen]

The Greyjoys being so "conservative" makes little sense.

The Greyjoy rebellions are all populist in nature, every captain is King on the Iron Isles, and they have the smallest disparity between citizen classes, it seems.

Not to mention that Asha and other women are allowed to fight, or that Asha was considered heir by a considerable amount of the Lords.

The Kingsmoot is also the closest thing to a democratic election we've seen in the series so far... with the exception of the Volanteen elections, IIRC.

[Fat Mac]

The Kingsmoot is also the closest thing to a democratic election we've seen in the series so far... with the exception of the Volanteen elections, IIRC.

Actually, the NW LC elections are the most democratic, since its a direct democratic election.

[Sullen]

Actually, the NW LC elections are the most democratic, since its a direct democratic election.

I had forgotten about the NW, balls!

[Er Rn]

The Martells and Dorne in general are probably most liberal.

The Lannisters (namely Tywin) are probably most conservative.

[Dicer]

If it were not for all the rape and kidnapping south of the wall, the Wildlings would be a pretty liberal, democratic society I would think.

Among houses, I think Dorne and the Martells are pretty liberal and the Tullys are pretty conservative. I would have said Starks are conservative as well except for members like Jon and Arya who seem to be a bit more forward thinking.

Among individuals I think Stannis is the most conservative and Oberyn/Jon Snow are the most liberal.

[Dicer]

The Lannisters (namely Tywin) are probably most conservative.

I don't think Tyrion or Jaime/Cersei are all that conservative.

[Er Rn]

I don't think Tyrion or Jaime/Cersei are all that conservative.

Nah, I don't think so either. I was referring more to the Tywin and Kevan regime.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

If it were not for all the rape and kidnapping south of the wall, the Wildlings would be a pretty liberal, democratic society I would think.

Among houses, I think Dorne and the Martells are pretty liberal and the Tullys are pretty conservative. I would have said Starks are conservative as well except for members like Jon and Arya who seem to be a bit more forward thinking.

Among individuals I think Stannis is the most conservative and Oberyn/Jon Snow are the most liberal.

How is Stannis Consevative? Explain.

[Djinn]

Tarly is the top conservative. Martells, Tyrells, Greyjoys are the most liberal of the great houses(as Houses, not individuals)

[A Duke]

Wait, are we talking liberal as in Liberalism (political philosophy) or liberal as in the liberal party? those are very different.

I am asking because you put them on the same scale while the opposite of Liberalism is not conservatism. But people seem to answer as if you refered to Liberalism.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The proper definition of conservative is someone who supports traditional social institutions, and opposes perceived change (conservatives want to conserve things).

From that point of view, I'd class Balon Greyjoy and Bowen Marsh as incredibly conservative.

[Ramsay Gimp]

This thread just proves how useless the terms "conservative" and "liberal" are when used outside of the context of modern (American) politics

The Martells are the only House with a clear position on the spectrum, as most "socially liberal." Everyone else is so outside even the context of the terms, which are post-enlightenment descriptors, that it's silly to even try. Is Balon Greyjoy a "conservative" due to his nostalgia for the Old Way, or a "liberal" for his desire to see his daughter succeed him?

A big problem with trying to pin these labels on ASOIAF characters is that the ideologies behind "conservative and liberal", "right and left," "progressive and traditionalist," etc. have to do with the proper structure of society. But no Westerosi Noble House is concerned with such ideals. It's all about the advancement of their House, or their own individual advancement, or their duty to their liege. Social/political theory doesn't enter into it - that's a modern concept.

The core structure of society in Westeros is supported by every major non-Wildling character. Actually, even saying that they support it isn't quite right - it's just taken for granted. The idea of "social progress" or "social oppression" is completely alien to them

[Caggo Corpsekiller]

Tyrion seems fairly liberal.

[Caggo Corpsekiller]

This thread just proves how useless the terms "conservative" and "liberal" are when used outside of the context of modern (American) politics

The Martells are the only House with a clear position on the spectrum, as most "socially liberal." Everyone else is so outside even the context of the terms which are post-enlightenment descriptors, that it's silly to even try. Is Balon Greyjoy a "conservative" due to his nostalgia for the Old Way, or a "liberal" for his desire to see his daughter succeed him?

A big problem with trying to pin these labels on ASOIAF characters is that the ideologies behind "conservative and liberal", "right and left," "progressive and traditionalist," etc. have to do with the proper structure of society. But no Westerosi Noble House is concerned with such ideals. It's all about the advancement of their House, or their own individual advancement, or their duty to their liege. Social/political theory doesn't enter into it - that's a modern concept.

The core structure of society in Westeros is supported by every major non-Wildling character. Actually, even saying that they support it isn't quite right - it's just taken for granted. The idea of "social progress" or "social oppression" is completely alien to

Whats wrong with applying a modern concept to ASOIAF just for fun?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Whats wrong with applying a modern concept to ASOIAF just for fun?

If it's fun to you go ahead. But it's pretty ridiculous, and a lot of people seem to take it seriously

[The Marquis de Leech]

Social/political theory doesn't enter into it - that's a modern concept.

Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas, Dante, William of Ockham, and Machiavelli want to have a word with you.

[A Duke]

This thread just proves how useless the terms "conservative" and "liberal" are when used outside of the context of modern (American) politics

The Martells are the only House with a clear position on the spectrum, as most "socially liberal." Everyone else is so outside even the context of the terms, which are post-enlightenment descriptors, that it's silly to even try. Is Balon Greyjoy a "conservative" due to his nostalgia for the Old Way, or a "liberal" for his desire to see his daughter succeed him?

A big problem with trying to pin these labels on ASOIAF characters is that the ideologies behind "conservative and liberal", "right and left," "progressive and traditionalist," etc. have to do with the proper structure of society. But no Westerosi Noble House is concerned with such ideals. It's all about the advancement of their House, or their own individual advancement, or their duty to their liege. Social/political theory doesn't enter into it - that's a modern concept.

The core structure of society in Westeros is supported by every major non-Wildling character. Actually, even saying that they support it isn't quite right - it's just taken for granted. The idea of "social progress" or "social oppression" is completely alien to them

If the terms applied refer to the US political parties then I agree.

However I believe there is no reason that we cannot ask who is close a certain philosophy such as Liberalism and Conservatism. One just has to realize they are not opposites.

Is Balon a conservationist? since he believes in the old way, it's practically by definition.

Is he an adherent to Liberalism (which is a separate question)? Well, the fact that he wanted his daughter to succeed him does not make him a believer in gender equality, it mostly goes to show his attitude toward her.

On the other hand he condones slavery, rape, murder and plunder. iirc he has racist beliefs towards those not ironborn, he is on par with the rest of his society on misogyny etc.

So I wouldn't say he is philosophically Liberal.