Heresy 83

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 83, this week’s edition of the popular and fast moving thread which takes a rather sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

It began by two years ago by questioning who really built the Wall and why and whether the Children really are the good guys or whether they are or are connected to the Others and over those two years it has developed from there into a free-flowing discussion challenging all sorts of orthodoxies in an attempt to figure out what’s really going on.

As the story itself has progressed from AGoT to ADwD we have come to see a much darker world and that there is a far more complex conflict going on which may have little or nothing to do with the struggle for the Iron Throne. Instead its one which seems to be fairly deeply rooted in Celtic and Norse mythology; upon the Mabinigion, the Tain bo Culaidh and Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to name but three – and not forgetting Young Tam Lin either – and lately we’ve also been looking at some of the equally compelling parallels in Greek mythology. The appearance of Dangerous Women has also provided food for thought which we’re still only starting to get to grips with. It probably ought to be spoilered as a matter of course but in any case beware of what you might find.

This is the Song of Ice and Fire; and the Others and the rest of the Old Powers together represent only one side of a conflict that has been waged since time began. While it would be true that most heresy revolves around the cold, blue-eyed lot and the other things beyond the Wall, we don’t neglect the Fire.

All of the theories under discussion are just that and matters of controversy rather tenets of faith. We think we’re reaching a better understanding of what’s really going on, but as heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot which is what makes this thread cycle so much fun.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction, but if you’re new to the game please don’t be intimidated by all those earlier threads. And if you’ve only just recently joined us here’s a link to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/ We’re very good at talking in circles. We’re also friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask.

Otherwise, all that we do ask of you as ever is that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all great good humour.

[nanother]

Wow, a new thread already?

[Black Crow]

You'll get used to it, we've been running at the rate of a thread a week for some time

[alienarea]

If we take this latest short story (that I haven't read) as an indicator for the Targaryens having for reasons and by methods still unknown, blood of the dragon ...

... and the Starks are the Targaryen counterparts, do they have blood of wolves, of winter, or both?

Again, 5 Stark children plus 1 (6), 6 direwolf pups, 6 white walkers in the prologue.

Also, if Craster's boys are used in a ritual to create White Walkers, who performs this ritual?

The only equivalents to MMD and Quaite in the north I can think of are the woodwitches like Morna White Mask.

Which links to "... he gives them to the woods"(witch)? And I can imagine a woodswitch to wear antlers. Hescox ... oh no.

Apologies, didn't want to go there when starting to post.

[Mace Cooterian]

If we take this latest short story (that I haven't read) as an indicator for the Targaryens having for reasons and by methods still unknown, blood of the dragon ...

... and the Starks are the Targaryen counterparts, do they have blood of wolves, of winter, or both?

Again, 5 Stark children plus 1 (6), 6 direwolf pups, 6 white walkers in the prologue.

Thoughts like these start getting pretty close to the stone Stark kings in the Winterfell vaults with their direwolves perched at their feet and their swords unsheathed.

[wolfmaid7]

To jump in on the Dragon discussion when it has to do with mating.We all know that Dany's son was stillborn and deformed.

"A still born girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby scaled tail." (princess and the Queen)

"He was inhuman, hideously deformed and covered in dragon-like scales. He had the stub of a tail small leather wings, reminiscent of a bat" (agot).

First i want to say that i believe that the Dragonbond is the equivalent to the Wargbond and that Targs actually do have Dragon's blood.I mention the texts in the spoiler not only because of the description of the still births but because of the women involved.

In Dragon lore,when Earth dragons reproduce and i will dispense with the mating displays which are plentiful,from all the unions only one female will be born, for only the dragon's first egg contains a female embryo.She is like an Alpha female and it is true her the race continues.

Dany and R are alike in a lot of ways and i'm compiling a profile on them as Dragon Alpa females(when i read the book) But thanks Lynns,Snowy and Fire and blood for the dragon posts.

[#Fire and Blood]

If we take this latest short story (that I haven't read) as an indicator for the Targaryens having for reasons and by methods still unknown, blood of the dragon ...

... and the Starks are the Targaryen counterparts, do they have blood of wolves, of winter, or both?

Again, 5 Stark children plus 1 (6), 6 direwolf pups, 6 white walkers in the prologue.

Also, if Craster's boys are used in a ritual to create White Walkers, who performs this ritual?

The only equivalents to MMD and Quaite in the north I can think of are the woodwitches like Morna White Mask.

Which links to "... he gives them to the woods"(witch)? And I can imagine a woodswitch to wear antlers. Hescox ... oh no.

Apologies, didn't want to go there when starting to post.

If this really is something that is happening, we should also consider asking more important questions.

Was Mance aware of the Witches who transform the babies? If so, did he lie to most of the wildlings to move south with him to throw off their real intentions? Would their real intentions include taking over the wall so that when their Icey creations make their way South they can let them through? Is that why they were looking for the horn of winter?

But that then begs the questions of, what is in it for them to do this? I would like to flesh this theory out a little bit more to see if it makes sense. Does that sound fair?

[Black Crow]

Flesh it out by all means. I certainly think what we might be seeing here is a firming up of some of the concepts we've discussed before about changelings.

[Black Crow]

On the subject of which, one of the characteristics about changelings is that outwardly they appear normal - leaving aside little clues of various descriptions.

As to Dany's still-born dragon child; did it appear thus because it was still-born? In other words if it had lived would the scales end everything else have faded and disappeared leaving him to grow up outwardly human. I'm also thinking here about the scurrilous tale that when Tyrion was born he had one.

Then crossing to the other side of the Wall; as we've discussed some time ago are Craster's sons collected because they are also changelings?

[Lord Ravenstark]

You'll get used to it, we've been running at the rate of a thread a week for some time

Once we had one for less than 5 days.

If we take this latest short story (that I haven't read) as an indicator for the Targaryens having for reasons and by methods still unknown, blood of the dragon ...

... and the Starks are the Targaryen counterparts, do they have blood of wolves, of winter, or both?

Again, 5 Stark children plus 1 (6), 6 direwolf pups, 6 white walkers in the prologue.

Also, if Craster's boys are used in a ritual to create White Walkers, who performs this ritual?

The only equivalents to MMD and Quaite in the north I can think of are the woodwitches like Morna White Mask.

Which links to "... he gives them to the woods"(witch)? And I can imagine a woodswitch to wear antlers. Hescox ... oh no.

Apologies, didn't want to go there when starting to post.

I have a -crackpot- theory: The Others were created for some reason... they are aware and sapient, alive and their creation cost lives. Happened somewhat like this: someone somewhere wanted a thrall, this one made an snowman... then took a baby, sacrificed and boom, a Other is born. The problem: The Other was intelligent and then realized how to create others of his kind. Kidnapping babies... things like that. They realized that "farming" humans is much more profitable. At end the Others recluded themselves at LoAW... things like that.

I personally don't like this crackpot... 't sounds like "Rogue AIs - Ye Olde Magick version". However I believe that Frosty, the First of the White Walkers was a created thing. They may be just a different form of life, evolved in the cold desert of LoAW like dragons but unlike dragons are human/giant/singer-like sapient. I'm not writting the novels, it's up to GRRM.

-How can I write so badly? I will stop crackpotting, I promise-

[Urrax]

Based on the new GRRM story:

Targs have dragon blood. It is known.

They carry a recessive dragon gene.

Sometimes this gene pops out and female Targs are delivered of creepy critters, part human and part dragon, not alive.

It is known.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

To jump in on the Dragon discussion when it has to do with mating.We all know that Dany's son was stillborn and deformed.

"A still born girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby scaled tail." (princess and the Queen)

"He was inhuman, hideously deformed and covered in dragon-like scales. He had the stub of a tail small leather wings, reminiscent of a bat" (agot).

First i want to say that i believe that the Dragonbond is the equivalent to the Wargbond and that Targs actually do have Dragon's blood.I mention the texts in the spoiler not only because of the description of the still births but because of the women involved.

In Dragon lore,when Earth dragons reproduce and i will dispense with the mating displays which are plentiful,from all the unions only one female will be born, for only the dragon's first egg contains a female embryo.She is like an Alpha female and it is true her the race continues.

Dany and R are alike in a lot of ways and i'm compiling a profile on them as Dragon Alpa females(when i read the book) But thanks Lynns,Snowy and Fire and blood for the dragon posts.

Not quite finished reading the new issue (TPATQoTBATG)... but there are some very interesting passages. In addition to the spoiler mentioned above, there is an intriguing mystery having to do with the dragon Sunfyre that I think might be relevant to our discussion of blood sacrifice, old powers, and "death pays for life."

[#Fire and Blood]

On the subject of which, one of the characteristics about changelings is that outwardly they appear normal - leaving aside little clues of various descriptions.

As to Dany's still-born dragon child; did it appear thus because it was still-born? In other words if it had lived would the scales end everything else have faded and disappeared leaving him to grow up outwardly human. I'm also thinking here about the scurrilous tale that when Tyrion was born he had one.

Then crossing to the other side of the Wall; as we've discussed some time ago are Craster's sons collected because they are also changelings?

Have we discussed changelings before? I just want to read up on whats been discussed before I go digging.

Thank!!

[Mother Other]

Yes, I would say that it seems to be a recessive gene.

The inbreeding seems to keep it prominent. But dragonseed or bastards can display it as well, it is hinted at, even if the gene was introduced in past generations. It need not be freshly planted.

Which will only lead to a new plethora of secret Targ theories, oh lord help us all.

ETA: spoiler tag. I believe many heresies ago someone had a theory that credited dragonriding to a recessive gene, not sure who proposed it but Kudos to whomever it was!

[#Fire and Blood]

From the Wiki.... "A changeling is a creature found in folklore and folk religion. It is typically described as being the offspring of a fairy, troll, elf or other legendary creature that has been secretly left in the place of a human child. Sometimes the term is also used to refer to the child who was taken. The apparent changeling could also be a stock or fetch, an enchanted piece of wood that would soon appear to grow sick and die. The theme of the swapped child is common among medieval literature and reflects concern over infants thought to be afflicted with unexplained diseases, disorders, or developmental disabilities.

A human child might be taken due to many factors: to act as a servant, the love of a human child, or malice.^[1] Most often it was thought that fairies exchanged the children. Some Norwegian tales tell that the change was made to prevent inbreeding: to give trolls and humans new blood, humans were given children with enormous strength as a reward. In some rare cases, the very elderly of the Fairy people would be exchanged in the place of a human baby, and then the old fairy could live in comfort, being coddled by its human parents"

I know this is not exactly what is happening right? I mean the babies are being born and there is no chance of a physical swap but maybe an internal transformation occurs? It seems like there is something here.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

On the subject of which, one of the characteristics about changelings is that outwardly they appear normal - leaving aside little clues of various descriptions.

As to Dany's still-born dragon child; did it appear thus because it was still-born? In other words if it had lived would the scales end everything else have faded and disappeared leaving him to grow up outwardly human. I'm also thinking here about the scurrilous tale that when Tyrion was born he had one.

Then crossing to the other side of the Wall; as we've discussed some time ago are Craster's sons collected because they are also changelings?

I think this is a good direction. My suggestion earlier was that Gilly's boy is the changeling of particular relevance... either for possible future developments of the plot, or for events that have already come to pass. I'm especially interested still in the notion that, unwittingly, Sam received a token payment (the clove of gilliflower) as consideration for a contract with Craster's wives - and that his end of the bargain was a commitment to bearing Gilly's son across the Wall. What is not yet clear is whether this act has already resulted in a larger failure of the wards and magical protections built into the Wall - but I would certainly theorize that Gilly's child would not have been permitted across the border without Sam's assistance and invitation. The Wall has been breached. (Recall the "big deal" made of the fact that only a brother of the NW can pass through the Black Gate... and the various clues by Martin identifying Gilly and her child - and even Craster himself for that matter - as creatures of a faerie nature.)

Guess I oughta finally polish off those Gilly posts and make a thread, huh?

[wolfmaid7]

Yes, I would say that it seems to be a recessive gene.

The inbreeding seems to keep it prominent. But dragonseed or bastards can display it as well, it is hinted at, even if the gene was introduced in past generations. It need not be freshly planted.

Which will only lead to a new plethora of secret Targ theories, oh lord help us all.

ETA: spoiler tag. I believe many heresies ago someone had a theory that credited dragonriding to a recessive gene, not sure who proposed it but Kudos to whomever it was!

Thank you :blushing:

[Toccs]

Have we discussed changelings before? I just want to read up on whats been discussed before I go digging.

Thank!!

Indeed we have, many times but I couldn't off the top of my head point you to which Heresies. There is a great thread by Bran Vras called "Ramsay Snow, the Washer Woman and the Changeling", well worth a read if you can track it down.

ETA : Found it. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/66560-ramsay-the-washerwoman-monsters-and-maidens-the-changeling/?hl=%2Bramsay+%2Bsnow+%2Bwasherwoman

[wolfmaid7]

I think this is a good direction. My suggestion earlier was that Gilly's boy is the changeling of particular relevance... either for possible future developments of the plot, or for events that have already come to pass. I'm especially interested still in the notion that, unwittingly, Sam received a token payment (the clove of gilliflower) as consideration for a contract with Craster's wives - and that his end of the bargain was a commitment to bearing Gilly's son across the Wall. What is not yet clear is whether this act has already resulted in a larger failure of the wards and magical protections built into the Wall - but I would certainly theorize that Gilly's child would not have been permitted across the border without Sam's assistance and invitation. The Wall has been breached. (Recall the "big deal" made of the fact that only a brother of the NW can pass through the Black Gate... and the various clues by Martin identifying Gilly and her child - and even Craster himself for that matter - as creatures of a faerie nature.)

Guess I oughta finally polish off those Gilly posts and make a thread, huh?

Seems to be a reoccurring theme, i kind of have the same vibes concerning Ghost ( for another time)

Not quite finished reading the new issue (TPATQoTBATG)... but there are some very interesting passages. In addition to the spoiler mentioned above, there is an intriguing mystery having to do with the dragon Sunfyre that I think might be relevant to our discussion of blood sacrifice, old powers, and "death pays for life."

Oh gosh,you guys have already read it???? Where are you guys?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

From the Wiki.... "A changeling is a creature found in folklore and folk religion. It is typically described as being the offspring of a fairy, troll, elf or other legendary creature that has been secretly left in the place of a human child. Sometimes the term is also used to refer to the child who was taken. The apparent changeling could also be a stock or fetch, an enchanted piece of wood that would soon appear to grow sick and die. The theme of the swapped child is common among medieval literature and reflects concern over infants thought to be afflicted with unexplained diseases, disorders, or developmental disabilities.

A human child might be taken due to many factors: to act as a servant, the love of a human child, or malice.^%5B1%5D Most often it was thought that fairies exchanged the children. Some Norwegian tales tell that the change was made to prevent inbreeding: to give trolls and humans new blood, humans were given children with enormous strength as a reward. In some rare cases, the very elderly of the Fairy people would be exchanged in the place of a human baby, and then the old fairy could live in comfort, being coddled by its human parents"

I know this is not exactly what is happening right? I mean the babies are being born and there is no chance of a physical swap but maybe an internal transformation occurs? It seems like there is something here.

I think there are clues in there which relate both to Patchface - who looks more and more like a twisted version of the changeling archetype - and to what's been going on at Craster's for years. I'll have to dig it up, but there is an interesting essay posted somewhere analyzing a passage from Shakespeare's A Winter's Tale in which Shakespeare's characters discuss "gillivors" and carnations, and debate the merits of attempting to breed a more beautiful, perfect flower than those already present in nature. One of the characters condemns the practice, and the other praises it - while the subtext builds all sorts of irony having to do with the perceived legitimacy or illegitimacy of the speakers themselves, whether they are nobles, or bastards. After reading the passage, I can't help but notice all the places this question turns up in Martin's work.

Here's the passage from A Winter's Tale:

PERDITA (To CAMILLO):

...Reverend sirs,

For you there's rosemary and rue; these keep

Seeming and savour all the winter long:

Grace and remembrance be to you both,

And welcome to our shearing!

POLIXENES

Shepherdess,

A fair one are you--well you fit our ages

With flowers of winter.

PERDITA

Sir, the year growing ancient,

Not yet on summer's death, nor on the birth

Of trembling winter, the fairest

flowers o' the season

Are our carnations and streak'd gillyvors,

Which some call nature's bastards: of that kind

Our rustic garden's barren; and I care not

To get slips of them.

POLIXENES

Wherefore, gentle maiden,

Do you neglect them?

PERDITA

For I have heard it said

There is an art which in their piedness shares

With great creating nature.

POLIXENES

Say there be;

Yet nature is made better by no mean

But nature makes that mean: so, over that art

Which you say adds to nature, is an art

That nature makes. You see, sweet maid, we marry

A gentler scion to the wildest stock,

And make conceive a bark of baser kind

By bud of nobler race: this is an art

Which does mend nature, change it rather, but

The art itself is nature.

PERDITA

So it is.

POLIXENES

Then make your garden rich in gillyvors,

And do not call them bastards.