Heresy 83

[Urrax]

Yeah, no Rhaegar in the House of the Undying, no mention of the PtwP ever in the show that I recall.

And in the same general area, did the show ever have Quaithe's "go east to go west" etc.?

[Black Crow]

More importantly, though: Why would GRRM ask about Jon's mother as a test? The R+L=J camp will tell you that the logical question should have been "Who are Jon's parents?" I consider GRRM's alternate test somewhat suggestive... and wonder if he's been using that test all along.

Its a perfectly reasonable question to ask given that so far as the text is concerned Jon is the bastard son of Eddard and that Jon and everyone else who speculates on it in text is looking to who his mother was, not who his father was.

As to "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly," I don't recall any other substantive references to him in the show, but I do note that the "blah blah blah" was actually "and Rhaegar died" and wonder whether this was GRRM telling us to forget about him, because he's dead, he is an ex-prince, he is no more etc. He's not important.

[dios_achilleus]

I was thinking about this the other day, and specifically the thread a few weeks ago regarding what is in Lyanna's tomb. The folks in that thread asserted that there would be items of relevance to the Starks (Torrhen's crown) and possibly Rhaegar's harp to indicate a consensual relationship.

I don't see how any number of items in the tomb could a) survive the storage conditions, or b) be relevant enough to assert Jon's true parentage. Only Howland Reed has testimony to support the story, and he's just one man. It seems to me people in Westeros will believe what they wish to believe.

Jon's parentage will not be important in an explicit way, only in a magical subtle way. He will be a Stark of Winterfell, and that is why he is a warg, and that is why he will make it to the Lands of Always Winter.

[Black Crow]

This is an old and respectable theory in Heresy.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I was thinking about this the other day, and specifically the thread a few weeks ago regarding what is in Lyanna's tomb. The folks in that thread asserted that there would be items of relevance to the Starks (Torrhen's crown) and possibly Rhaegar's harp to indicate a consensual relationship.

I don't see how any number of items in the tomb could a) survive the storage conditions, or b) be relevant enough to assert Jon's true parentage. Only Howland Reed has testimony to support the story, and he's just one man. It seems to me people in Westeros will believe what they wish to believe.

Jon's parentage will not be important in an explicit way, only in a magical subtle way. He will be a Stark of Winterfell, and that is why he is a warg, and that is why he will make it to the Lands of Always Winter.

Good post. Well said.

[Orrin Storm]

As to "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly," I don't recall any other substantive references to him in the show, but I do note that the "blah blah blah" was actually "and Rhaegar died" and wonder whether this was GRRM telling us to forget about him, because he's dead, he is an ex-prince, he is no more etc. He's not important.

I always took this to just be Jorah telling Dany that Rhaegar played by the rules, and he paid for it. He said it in Clash to encourage her to accept bought slaves were the best course to Westeros.

I doubt Martin would set up so much about Rhaegar, particularly in the HotU and through the Harrenhal tourney story Jojen tells Bran. I'm pretty sure that that generation has much to do with the current political and magical layout of the world. I don't think Rhaegar is such a moot point yet, but I could see that he is maybe talked about as a red herring, to lure speculation from a more immediately pertinent character.

[Urrax]

I always took this to just be Jorah telling Dany that Rhaegar played by the rules, and he paid for it. He said it in Clash to encourage her to accept bought slaves were the best course to Westeros.

I doubt Martin would set up so much about Rhaegar, particularly in the HotU and through the Harrenhal tourney story Jojen tells Bran. I'm pretty sure that that generation has much to do with the current political and magical layout of the world. I don't think Rhaegar is such a moot point yet, but I could see that he is maybe talked about as a red herring, to lure speculation from a more immediately pertinent character.

I think the feeling being expressed is that the small number of references to Rhaegar (and Lyanna) in the show as compared with the books suggests that the topic is not that essential and thus may be a red herring in the books.

[wolfmaid7]

This is so evocative Evita. Bran is now holding the keep for his brother (Rickon) and his King (of Winter) Jon, or so I interpret the meaning.

Ever since rereading Redriver's Winterfell thread; I've been taken up with the blood motif, the communion motif and the laws of hospitality. I think we've begun to unravel the blood of the dragon and changeling mysteries and I wonder where to begin on the ice side of the equation with the Stark, Wildling and north men abilities to warg and skinchange in some of the population.

I think this goes back to the Pact and the original sin; the violation of the laws of hospitality and the shedding of blood. We are told that above all, the old gods consider the laws of hospitality inviolate taking precedence even over kinslaying and kingslaying as an atrocity.

The First Men either came to Westeros as migrants or as refugees. I prefer to think that they were given sanctuary under the laws of hospitality and that this law was grievously broken causing retribution or denial of board by calling down the Cold as a defense.

We are told that the First Men and the CotF joined together to defeat a common foe. I prefer to interpret this joining together as the Pact itself; an agreement to cease fire so long as certain laws are observed and conditions are met. I'm inclined to think that the Pact took the form of a Blood Oath, the strongest form of pact. Where those in attendance exchanged blood and flesh; the wine and the host in Catholic tradition, witnessed by the old gods/weirwoods. I imagine the aggressors, their kings or chieftains spilled their blood and were given the blood of the gods (weirwood paste) in exchange; to seal the bond. I think skinchanging and warging begins with this communion cup.

I think the ancestors of the Starks were present and signatories to the Pact. Their bloodline paying the price for breaking the laws of hospitality and now assigned to guarding the law and ensuring that the oath is kept by men. The old gods are given Bran the Builder as a ward; who then builds the Wall and Winterfell. The Starks are assigned as wardens of both Winterfell and the Wall.

The Wall has the peculiar characteristic of acting like a prison for the Wildlings and the Night's Watch. At one time, the Wall was a place of honor, knights came to the Wall with their entourages and serving men to do their duty. Now it's a gulag; where political prisioners, petty thieves and dishonorable men are disappeared. Anyone deserting their post and any Wildling moving south are summarily executed. It's the prisoners in charge of the prisoners and I'm reminded of the prison cells in the bowels of the Night Fort.

But why are the Wildlings held as prisoners down through the generations; tainted by their ancestors transgressions? The Wildlings are held in a prison colony. Ned's justice doesn't seem like justice at all when poor Gared has his head removed. The Starks could not have been the only signatories to the Pact among men. Joramun played a role as well. Why was he given the horn of winter? Is this a countermeasure if the Starks should fail?

As wardens of the Wall; what do the Kings of Winter signify with their swords across their knees? Are they denying hospitality to anyone north of the wall? In other words, this place is reserved for the old gods and conversely; the Wildlings may not pass south of the Wall. They are the shock troops of the cold gods should the pact fail? It's the last line of defense should Winter Fall with all it's castles and fortification on the south side; literally with their backs to the wall.

Why direwolves? Direwolves seem to provide a means for communication with the old gods with their wardens; the most sympathetic animal to bond with men; emissaries from the old gods and guardians to the Starks. The kings in their crypts with their dogs snarling at their feel; so evocative of prison wardens and their dogs.

Ned Stark acts as the proxy for the King's justice. But is he in reality a proxy for the old gods? I'm not so sure that we have seen blood sacrifice in Bran's vision. Rather we have seen justice served and witnessed by the weirwoods as a condition of the Pact. If legend says that once all the old houses kept their own godswood tree; is this a reminder of the laws of hospitality?

I love this theory,with a little variation it's pretty much what i deduced happen. DWs,Crows and Dragons to me represent those Old Races that are telepathic in nature and the most appropriate to make contact and or bond with this new race that landed( Man). Initially during first contact there would have to be be some means of communication before people learnt each others tongue. So it seemed plausible that the races that didn't need words per se break the ice after sensing that there were some members that were susceptible .

This i think would not have gone down well,first contact and some of your people start having funny dreams about trees and wolves etc.We can understand the strong belief the FM had about the trees watching them and the almost decimation of the DWs.Certain of their kin had now become compromised.

In addition to the above my couple of differences i have of course is the Skinchanging/Warging gift given by the COTF theory .I believe this a trait that precedes men coming to Westeros and i say that for two reasons.The proportion beyond the wall,which makes me believe that they came as refugees.Secondly, because of the similarities to the Dragons with the Targs.An element is missing here and to me its why members of two ancient races choose the Starks and why choose the Targs it has to do with an already existing trait that made them "bond able"

[Orrin Storm]

I think the feeling being expressed is that the small number of references to Rhaegar (and Lyanna) in the show as compared with the books suggests that the topic is not that essential and thus may be a red herring in the books.

I find it hard to take the shows liberties as anything more than that. One liberty, Drogo killing Pono?, the blood rider that challenged him, was beyond even what Martin was down with. He said that Pono? was alive in the books, and would eventually interact with Dany in Vaes Dothrok.

Based on that "needless" addition changing up interactions 5 books later, I think it's safe to say not everything in the show crosses well or intentionally with the books.

I would only consider episodes written by or edited by Martin to be very prophetic or relavent to the books. He even flat said that the show and the books were two separate things after last season.

[Urrax]

Do you recollect which episode in the show had Drogo killing Pono?

[Black Crow]

I find it hard to take the shows liberties as anything more than that. One liberty, Drogo killing Pono?, the blood rider that challenged him, was beyond even what Martin was down with. He said that Pono? was alive in the books, and would eventually interact with Dany in Vaes Dothrok.

Based on that "needless" addition changing up interactions 5 books later, I think it's safe to say not everything in the show crosses well or intentionally with the books.

I would only consider episodes written by or edited by Martin to be very prophetic or relavent to the books. He even flat said that the show and the books were two separate things after last season.

Up to a point and that is that Benioff and Weiss know how its supposed to end. If Rhaegar (deceased) was to have some real relevance to that ending I'd expect to hear more of him and still think that the "Rhaegar died" has that double meaning. Rhaegar is history.

[Black Crow]

Do you recollect which episode in the show had Drogo killing Pono?

Don't recall his name but it wasn't Khal Pono.

So far as the show was concerned he defied and challenged Drogo after the battle where the Lamb-men were massacred and MMD was captured. In the book Drogo was wounded in battle, but in the HBO show he was wounded killing the blood-rider who wasn't called Pono.

[Urrax]

Up to a point and that is that Benioff and Weiss know how its supposed to end. If Rhaegar (deceased) was to have some real relevance to that ending I'd expect to hear more of him .... Rhaegar is history.

:agree:

Similarly, while Pono may reappear in Winds when Dany meets up with the Dothraki again, he may well be a side matter as compared with say Jhogo.

ETA: So it wasn't Pono in the show after all?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Up to a point and that is that Benioff and Weiss know how its supposed to end. If Rhaegar (deceased) was to have some real relevance to that ending I'd expect to hear more of him and still think that the "Rhaegar died" has that double meaning. Rhaegar is history.

Maybe. But it is also likely that, given the limitations of the format, stringing out that kind of mystery over 5 seasons or so wouldn't pay. If it doesn't affect the plot until season 6, it might not come up until season 5.

That said, I could see Rhaegar being left out entirely from the show and Jon becoming Aerys' son.

[Toccs]

I think AtS's point is that the passage doesn't say trees; it says bush. There don't seem to be any entrails in a tree.

Yeah I got that. Which is why I clarified it as an impromptu religious ceremony. Coldhands doesn't exactly have a nearby Heart Tree or Weirwood to do all the pomp and circumstance, but he is still a Black Brother and servant of the Old Gods who is dealing justice to some oathbreakers, so it's just an on-the-fly sort of thing.

I don't dispute that wolves can make a mess like that, but the description given is that the entrails are coiled around the branches.

[Toccs]

I find it hard to take the shows liberties as anything more than that. One liberty, Drogo killing Pono?, the blood rider that challenged him, was beyond even what Martin was down with. He said that Pono? was alive in the books, and would eventually interact with Dany in Vaes Dothrok.

Based on that "needless" addition changing up interactions 5 books later, I think it's safe to say not everything in the show crosses well or intentionally with the books.

I would only consider episodes written by or edited by Martin to be very prophetic or relavent to the books. He even flat said that the show and the books were two separate things after last season.

I wouldn't say that. A lot of people seem to overreact to the changes in the show. For all of them however it is still basically as faithful to the books as Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies were to their respective books. Which is to say that it covers it all in broad strokes, but it's still going to the same basic place at the end.

[Orrin Storm]

Not quoting cause this is just a general reply, but don't get me wrong I love the show. I just don't see them as comparable in terms of bringing new insight to book material. That just isn't my cup of tea anyway.

[TheMtThatRides...Your Mom]

:agree:

Similarly, while Pono may reappear in Winds when Dany meets up with the Dothraki again, he may well be a side matter as compared with say Jhogo.

ETA: So it wasn't Pono in the show after all?

I think it was Mago. Or Mogo. I wish it was Mongo.

eta - his name is mago. He was the one raping Eroeh when dany stops him. after drogo gets sick from his wound jhaqo names himself khal and mago as his bloodrider. then they rape eroeh again and slit her throat before leaving.

[Toccs]

Not quoting cause this is just a general reply, but don't get me wrong I love the show. I just don't see them as comparable in terms of bringing new insight to book material. That just isn't my cup of tea anyway.

New insight, no I would agree. However due to the difference in mediums, sometimes the show can not afford to be as subtle with something as the books. For example the White Walker collecting Craster's baby, the show has to be much more overt in showing something that in the books is only hinted at.

On the whole though I prefer to base my theories around the text. The validity of the show and just how accurate it ultimately is, is something that can't really be judged until both are completed.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I think it was Mago. Or Mogo. I wish it was Mongo.

eta - his name is mago. He was the one raping Eroeh when dany stops him. after drogo gets sick from his wound jhaqo names himself khal and mago as his bloodrider. then they rape eroeh again and slit her throat before leaving.

Interestingly, the total count of Eroeh's attackers (rapers/killers) is specified. They were 6 in number.