Do you think Sansa is next in line to die?

[mormont]

Going behind their families backs/authority in order to see their specific goals through?

-Ratting out to Cersei

-Freeing Jaime

I like chocolate chips

Nice try, but what we're looking for is a way in which the two characters are alike, not a way in which two of their actions can be portrayed as in some way similar. (If that were enough, we'd be able to say any two characters in the series are 'alike'.)

I think I'll just eat these myself. ;)

[Darksnider05]

Catelyn freeing Jaime was something she did to save a member of House Stark. It was really stupid but in the interest of saving Sansa.

What Sansa did was in the interest of Sansa no one else.

Arya and Cateyln share a lot of traits which they'll probably never get to share together.

A love of whole sale slaughter.

The ability to hold a grudge to extremes.

Loyalty above and beyond the call to family and friends.

Catelyn just lacks the pragmatism Arya has developed in accomplishing her goals.

[Woman of War]

I'll give you a cookie if you can name a single way that Sansa is anything like Catelyn, other than having auburn hair.

Cat is intelligent and energetic, while Sansa......... so unfortunately no cookie for me.

Sansa indeed can't die soon since she is the only observing POV in the Vale at the moment. And Baelish won't die before he has done some more mischief, probably making use of Sansa, so she will continue being important either as observer, as catalyst of bigger events or as LF's accomplice.

[Alta1r]

I'll give you a cookie if you can name a single way that Sansa is anything like Catelyn, other than having auburn hair.

This supposed 'similarity' gets brought up all the time, and it simply doesn't exist. Cat is not at all interested in romantic songs and ideals of chivalry, and she never has been: the whole backstory with LF shows this at every turn. Cat is practical, down-to-earth, not particularly interested in nice dresses, and happy to travel without a maid. She's motivated by duty and family concerns. Sansa is arguably becoming more like this, but Cat always was like this. She has more in common with Arya than she does Sansa.

Sansa actually has quite a bit in common with Robb: she's certainly as much a 'Stark' as he is. Arya is the one who's left her identity as a Stark behind, almost completely. So this notion that the death of Lady thematically shows that Sansa isn't a Stark any more is tremendously shaky stuff.

Hmm, I guess that's true about Sansa not being like Cat. But how is she like Rob? She's still not very Stark-like. We see with Arya that she consistently refuses to give up her identity as a Stark, so I don't think saying Arya ha left her identity behind is accurate.

Going behind their families backs/authority in order to see their specific goals through?

-Ratting out to Cersei

-Freeing Jaime

I like chocolate chips

:lol:

[BaseBornBastard]

I think the next major POV (someone with at least 10 chapters) to die will probably be Cersei.

[Darkbringer]

Problem for Sansa is she is in a position where only a marrige to Harry the Heir will make her important again. And then only if Sweetrobin dies. The only way I see her dying is in the following scenario. Sansa discovers LFs poisoning plot involving SR. Does nothing. Sansa gets implicated and possibly caught in a lie. Is put to death. Harks back to Lady being killed for a crime she didn't commit, but was ultimately Sansa's fault.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I rather think that the death of Lady foreshadows her eventual abandonment of her identity as a lady when she flees King's Landing with LIttlefinger and becomes Alayne Stone. It's not about whether she's a Stark, because she clearly takes strength from the snow once she arrives at the Eyrie as Stark would, but the eventual change in perspective that comes with it. Similarly, Nymeria becoming a vicious wolf that sees men only as prey is meant to mirror Arya's transformation into someone that no longer values life and has no problems killing someone to accomplish her goals.

This!

The last Stark will be Rickon. He is currently flying under everyone's radar. Good for him.

Rickon is about to be brought on the scene and if he follows suit like his older siblings, will be someone's pawn, probably Stannis, so he won't be under the radar for long.

Lady led the way down the path Sansa ultimately followed and remains true to even now-----disappearance.

Actually it was Nymeria that led the way of disappearance as a survival strategy for Arya. If we use this line of thinking then Lady set the example of complete obedience and wound up losing her life.

[SugarCrisp]

I think Sansa will be the one to finally get the armies of the Vale off of their butt. We've heard about them enough, let's see them in action.

And she might not have plot armour, but LF is in love with her. And that is pretty good protection, considering all the connections he has.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I rather think that the death of Lady foreshadows her eventual abandonment of her identity as a lady when she flees King's Landing with LIttlefinger and becomes Alayne Stone. It's not about whether she's a Stark, because she clearly takes strength from the snow once she arrives at the Eyrie as Stark would, but the eventual change in perspective that comes with it. Similarly, Nymeria becoming a vicious wolf that sees men only as prey is meant to mirror Arya's transformation into someone that no longer values life and has no problems killing someone to accomplish her goals.

Symbolism and foreshadowing aside, I believe you have that wrong or maybe at the least backwards.

I think Nymeria is behaving perfectly inbounds of what a normal direwolf would left to their own devices - this aggression is why the direwolves were thought to be hunted out of existence - so it's entirely possible that, with the direwolf running free, Nymeria's natural nature is effecting an untrained Arya instead, if at all.

So with that in mind I can not see what you claim "is meant to mirror" here, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

AGoT Ned:

"You must train them as well," their father said. "You must train them. The kennelmaster will have nothing to do with these monsters, I promise you that. And the gods help you if you neglect them, or brutalize them, or train them badly. These are not dogs to beg for treats and slink off at a kick. A direwolf will rip a man's arm off his shoulder as easily as a dog will kill a rat. Are you sure you want this?

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm/

Martin: They're an extinct animal in that part. They're a very large and dangerous predator, and people have probably hunted them out.

Furthermore I think you have twisted this all so hard to fit your personal view that Sansa losing Lady in AGoT "foreshadows" what happens to Sansa all the way down the line in AFfC but Arya losing Nymeria means they mirror eachother immediately? I suppose you feel that way [invented this] since Lady actually died when Nymeria just ran off? As if there is not plenty of repercussions with Lady right away?

The cigar here is the fact that Sansa could not have the protection of a direwolf and be kept hostage and abused in King's Landing, or Arya for that matter. I mean who read AGoT and while waiting for future installments theorized that when Lady died it meant Sansa would be hidden in plain sight as a bastard? I feel the only thing Lady dyeing could possibly and realistically portend would be if one of the girls, Sansa or Arya, sacrifices themselves for the other and that remains to be seen.

Also I have to wonder about claiming "Sansa clearly gains strength from the snow as a Stark would" so if that's true then why does Bran name his direwolf Summer? I do think this claim should make sense in the story but I always get stuck on Bran and Summer, further I have the in-story impression that Starks gain strength from their "pack".

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Symbolism and foreshadowing aside, I believe you have that wrong or maybe at the least backwards.

I think Nymeria is behaving perfectly inbounds of what a normal direwolf would left to their own devices - this aggression is why the direwolves were thought to be hunted out of existence - so it's entirely possible that, with the direwolf running free, Nymeria's natural nature is effecting an untrained Arya instead, if at all.

So with that in mind I can not see what you claim "is meant to mirror" here, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

AGoT Ned:

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm/

Furthermore I think you have twisted this all so hard to fit your personal view that Sansa losing Lady in AGoT "foreshadows" what happens to Sansa all the way down the line in AFfC but Arya losing Nymeria means they mirror eachother immediately? I suppose you feel that way [invented this] since Lady actually died when Nymeria just ran off? As if there is not plenty of repercussions with Lady right away?

The cigar here is the fact that Sansa could not have the protection of a direwolf and be kept hostage and abused in King's Landing, or Arya for that matter. I mean who read AGoT and while waiting for future installments theorized that when Lady died it meant Sansa would be hidden in plain sight as a bastard? I feel the only thing Lady dyeing could possibly and realistically portend would be if one of the girls, Sansa or Arya, sacrifices themselves for the other and that remains to be seen.

Also I have to wonder about claiming "Sansa clearly gains strength from the snow as a Stark would" so if that's true then why does Bran name his direwolf Summer? I do think this claim should make sense in the story but I always get stuck on Bran and Summer, further I have the in-story impression that Starks gain strength from their "pack".

Regards Starks and snow/summer; I think Starks dont draw strength from Winter or snow but rather are seen to remain strong, unlike other houses. They are I suppose the Rock that others rest upon in Winter, the Guardians who safeguard others through to the new Spring. Bran I feel names his Direwold Summer because he has seen the Heart of Winter in his Comatose Dream and he sees Summer as the hope that will see him through Winter.

To make that somewhat clearer, I dont think Starks draw strength from snow but it makes them appear stronger because it does not daunt them so unlike other Houses they seem stronger in Winter. With Winter officially having arrived in Westeros, this perhaps means no more Stark deaths.

[Mladen]

It is my opinion she will survive the series.

As for what Lady's death has foreshadowed or symbolized, I believe it was forceful domestication of Sansa. Lady's death is following Mordane's observation about Sansa's behavior. She-wolf as the symbol of independence, freedom, strength, and in many ways used as feminist symbol of strong women, was in Sansa's case embodied in Lady. So, in a way, this was cutting Sansa's strength in half, which would later allow her to be obedient "little bird" in order to survive. Interestingly, the first time she was referred as she-wolf, after Lady's death was during her wedding with Tyrion, and we all know what has happened there. So, I do believe that Lady's death in fact represented Sansa being transformed into obedient girl. That is quite impressive use of animal motifs in portraying female characters. More about this idea, you can read here

Lastly, I always find curious how people say that what Sansa did in KL is something contrived with being Stark, when we have strong indications that her aunt did exactly the same. The Stark one, in case you have been wondering which aunt :)

[Dragon Roast]

No, she will not be the next to die. Love her or hate her, I think she has too much plot armor for that. I tend to agree with those who think she'll make it to the end of the books,

While I do not think Sansa will die, I do think that she will learn to kill (by her hand and/or by her order). This is a skill every successful medieval ruler had. Like her sister Arya, I think Sansa will become very comfortable with getting blood on her hands. For me the more interesting question is who will be Sansa's first kill and how many will follow...

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

She should've died in AGOT when she was considering jumping Joffrey and taking him with her off the battlements of the Red Keep. That would've given her character a purpose aside from observer/tool.

[Newstar]

So this notion that the death of Lady thematically shows that Sansa isn't a Stark any more is tremendously shaky stuff.

Mmm, I dunno about that, looking at this post from Trebla:

We've had these debates before about whether Sansa's actions truly resulted in her losing her wolf and father. And whether losing Lady symbolized her ceasing to be a true Stark. In fact, we've had this debate in front of GRRM twice.The first time was in St Louis in 2001 while at dinner. GRRM let us debate, smiling and nodding here and there. He also told us why he created Sansa in the first place, because there is always someone in a family that the others don't get along with. He was a bit coy in answering our questions but in the end he did indicate that Sansa did have responsibility for Lady's and Ned's deaths. I reported this to the board and I recall it being dismissed by some. I distinctly recall someone saying, "Well what I think he really meant to say was..."

The second time we had this discussion was in Indy in 2007. There was a boarder there that didn't believe that Sansa's losing Lady symbolized her not being a Stark anymore. The person said so in front of GRRM and GRRM smiled and said, "Doesn't it?"

GRRM loves to troll the fans and all, but this hardly sounds "tremendously shaky" to me.

Sansa actually has quite a bit in common with Robb: she's certainly as much a 'Stark' as he is. Arya is the one who's left her identity as a Stark behind, almost completely.

I suppose the distinction to be drawn is that for all her supposed intentions of pledging herself to the FM, Arya continues to have wolf dreams, tying her to the Starks, and she has kept Needle, showing an unwillingness to relinquish her Stark identity completely, whereas Sansa has given herself over to the Alayne Stone identity completely while lacking any such touchstone or totem to anchor her to her Stark self. This renders her connection to her Stark identity much more precarious than Arya's, who still has a living direwolf and who refused to discard Needle. Sansa's Stark connection still exists--"Sansa" briefly reappears when she hears the wind howling in the last AFFC chapter--but it's much more fragile and weak than Arya's connection.

I think the idea of Lady's death being tied to Sansa's loss of her Stark identity seems unappealing or disturbing because it seems like Sansa (on a meta level) is being cast out of the Starks for an innocent mistake she made as a child, which seems awfully unfair. And yet in ASOIAF an ongoing theme is youthful mistakes made by good people with no malicious or evil intent having horrific, permanent consequences, and for Sansa one such consequence, in addition to Lady's death, could be the permanent loss of her identity as a Stark.

...Sansa kind of reminds me of Susan from the Narnia books, who also loved girly things ("nylon and lipstick and invitations"), and who also wound up being cast out of paradise in a sense (or at least barred from paradise) and separated permanently from her family...pretty much for precisely that reason.

And then there's the comic book series, Fables, where there is a set of siblings where one of them, Therese, is girly and feminine. The author describes her thusly: "In our minds, Therese was always the pretty, spoiled one. The other two females are pretty as well, but not quite aware of it as Therese was. She wanted to be in the nice dresses. She wanted the tiaras. She wanted the special attention and all that kind of stuff, so taking that spoiled child to the next level and the next level and the next level down naturally follows that digression." What winds up happening to Therese is that (spoilers for the comic book series)

She winds up committing a great evil under desperate circumstances as the ruler of a realm called Toyland--long story--and when her brother sacrifices himself to save her, she dedicates her existence to redeeming and healing the realm as penance. She returns to her world briefly, but she feels she must rule Toyland and that she cannot stay with her family...so she, too, winds up "cast out from paradise" and separated from her family permanently.

[Skoboe]

I don't think Lady's death foreshadowed anything...it was just the start of the journey in turning her from a pre-teen with fairytale dreams to a polical player.

She left WF thinking that all Kings and Queens were good and noble, all Knights were heroes who rescued fair maidens, that KL was a heavenly place full of fluffy love-bunnies and flowers, and that her Prince would marry her in the most extravagent ceremony in history then they'd have lots of beautiful children and live happily ever after.

Along the way 'stupid' Sansa betrayed Arya, which ended up with Lady being killed.

Then she betrayed Ned, which ended up with Ned losing his head.

All because they threatened this entire romantic notion of how her world should be.

Lesson learned: betray loved ones for personal gain - suffer instant karma.

Her experiences since leaving WF have shaped her into what we caught a glimpse of during her Harry the Heir talk with LF.

Kings and Queens can be cruel, Princes can be total arsehats, and Knights are simple killing machines that take orders from cruel people without question. Her ONLY friend out of KL is the one man who she could only feel revulsion for - Sandor Clegane.

'Stupid' Sansa has grown into 'player' Sansa right before our eyes...she will not be killed off after so much work has gone into her character.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I don't think Lady's death foreshadowed anything...it was just the start of the journey in turning her from a pre-teen with fairytale dreams to a polical player.

She left WF thinking that all Kings and Queens were good and noble, all Knights were heroes who rescued fair maidens, that KL was a heavenly place full of fluffy love-bunnies and flowers, and that her Prince would marry her in the most extravagent ceremony in history then they'd have lots of beautiful children and live happily ever after.

Along the way 'stupid' Sansa betrayed Arya, which ended up with Lady being killed.

Then she betrayed Ned, which ended up with Ned losing his head.

All because they threatened this entire romantic notion of how her world should be.

Lesson learned: betray loved ones for personal gain - suffer instant karma.

Her experiences since leaving WF have shaped her into what we caught a glimpse of during her Harry the Heir talk with LF.

Kings and Queens can be cruel, Princes can be total arsehats, and Knights are simple killing machines that take orders from cruel people without question. Her ONLY friend out of KL is the one man who she could only feel revulsion for - Sandor Clegane.

'Stupid' Sansa has grown into 'player' Sansa right before our eyes...she will not be killed off after so much work has gone into her character.

Lady's death has to mean something or there would be no point to it. And no, it's not that there couldn't be a direwolf in King's Landing. There would be no point in giving all the children a wolf if that was the case. The loss of Lady will be explained and felt. Martin doesn't do anything "just because".

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It's hard to predict deaths in this series so I won't make any predictions, however I think she is safe at the moment since she is the only POV at the vale.

As someone pointed out most deaths will come at the places of concentrated POVs i.e Meereen and Winterfell and maybe KL if Aegon gets there.

[Skoboe]

Lady's death has to mean something or there would be no point to it. And no, it's not that there couldn't be a direwolf in King's Landing. There would be no point in giving all the children a wolf if that was the case. The loss of Lady will be explained and felt. Martin doesn't do anything "just because".

Of course it means something, I never once said it didn't. It was a significant first step for Sansa in realising the world isn't all peaches and cream.

Not everything in the book has to foreshadow something...if it did then the series would be growing exponentially with no end in sight.

[Rickeen Baratheon]

I always assumed the death of Lady was to point out that, Sansa didn't side with her sister and paid the price for it. Not her fault, it was Cersei deciding to get one up. Because she could. But if it were to foreshadow anything, it would be as Ned says "The pack sticks together and the lone wolf dies." Sansa had drew lines, then, she didn't side with Joff but she didn't tell the truth either. I understand why and don't blame her, but I reckon that is what the death of Lady implies.

[Alty732]

I feel like its pretty obvious she will take up Robb's mantle as leader of Winterfell, as she now on a path to learning the Game. Arya is too wild, Bran is doing magic stuff, and Rickon will also probably be wild. Sansa is the Starks last hope in terms of returning as a house.