Do you think Sansa is next in line to die?

[Mithras]

I think Sansa will have her first sex with Baelish, and certainly not in a violent manner, Baelish is not dumb enough for this, he could easily seduce her and I guess he will. Martin will not give us some rape, Sansa will enjoy it, though maybe with mixed feelings. And then for a while Sansa may go along with playing Baelish's games until she finds out how he betrayed her family. This will be the turning point for her, she would seek revenge and maybe succeed. This may leave her cynical and dark or open a path for Sansa back to herself after she has gone through hell.

I believe Harry the Heir is only a big red herring, there will be no first sex with him. Nor do I think that having sex will be the big game changing turning point, since at a certain age, well, it happens to all of us and doesn't turn our personalities upside down. It will be the knowledge how she has been manipulated and abused that would completely turn her worldview around.

No, she won't die a virgin.

[sansa grabs the dragonbone dagger] "I DID warn you not to thrust me!"

[Woman of War]

[sansa grabs the dragonbone dagger] "I DID warn you not to thrust me!"

I think Sansa, Dany or Arianne e.g. are just not meant to be martial. While Dany or Arianne are in a position to order their killings Sansa may trick someone into killling or simply use poison. Sansa is not Cat who throws all her body and weight into a fight, literally or metaphorically, despite being a slim woman. Sansa would kill by accident, by poison or by making use of people.

[Éadaoin]

I think Sansa will have her first sex with Baelish, and certainly not in a violent manner, Baelish is not dumb enough for this, he could easily seduce her and I guess he will.

What exactly makes you think that LF could "easily seduce" Sansa? Because I've come to the exact opposite conclusion-- she shows no sign of being attracted to him, she only suffers his advances because she has no other choice (he's a sexual predator ffs), and though I'm not really that into SanSan, it's pretty clear to me that she'd prefer him, for example, over LF any day.

[E-Ro]

What exactly makes you think that LF could "easily seduce" Sansa? Because I've come to the exact opposite conclusion-- she shows no sign of being attracted to him, she only suffers his advances because she has no other choice (he's a sexual predator ffs), and though I'm not really that into SanSan, it's pretty clear to me that she'd prefer him, for example, over LF any day.

Yeah, I agree. If littlefinger and sansa did have sex (not gonna happen) It would not be consensual. LF is a disgusting small little shit and sansa is hot, no way he seduces her.

[Le Cygne]

Yeah, I agree. If littlefinger and sansa did have sex (not gonna happen) It would not be consensual. LF is a disgusting small little shit and sansa is hot, no way he seduces her.

Myranda dissed him, too. "How little is it, do you know?"

[Cruella]

Even the courtiers are shunning her.

Are you saying they are shunning her because she betrayed someone? They are shunning her because she's a traitor's daughter.

I also don't see how all these deaths happened because of her information (maybe Syrio, that could make sense). Slaughter started because Ned walked up to Cersei and tried to arrest her and Joffrey. If Sansa kept her mouth shut LF would still betray Ned and Cersei would still order Stark retainers killed, and all that happened before Arya was being wisked away to safety, which Ned knew perfectly well.

Truth be told, I am not sure how many of those plotpoints Martin even remembers by now. It's been ages since he wrote GOT. I'd love for some interviewer to ask him to clarify this point and plot point about Mirri Maz Duur - why she warned Dany not to enter the tent if we're supposed to believe she wanted her child dead (as per app). What was Cersei's plan in case Robert didn't run into boar - why not just poison him? Etc.

[SeanF]

I think Sansa, Dany or Arianne e.g. are just not meant to be martial. While Dany or Arianne are in a position to order their killings Sansa may trick someone into killling or simply use poison. Sansa is not Cat who throws all her body and weight into a fight, literally or metaphorically, despite being a slim woman. Sansa would kill by accident, by poison or by making use of people.

Well, her mother knew how to use a dagger quite effectively. I'm pretty sure that either Dany or Arianne could do so. I think it would be much harder for Sansa, given that her nature is gentler than either of theirs, but who knows?

[brashcandy]

<snip>

I find your analysis of the small council meeting where Sansa is present to be overly simplified, LAS, and you seem to have twisted the thoughts of a frightened and panicked girl into something much more severe in order to justify this parallel with Theon as a "turncloak". I'm afraid it doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny. Neither Sansa nor Arya have much time for each other, especially not when they come to KL and Sansa is fascinated with the courtly scene straight from her imagination and Arya is taking her “dancing” lessons. Whatever their differences – and most of it can be put down to childish squabbles and rivalry – both girls are shown to cherish the memories of each other after they are separated.

To isolate a few of Sansa’s less than kind statements of her sister as a traitor or exaggerated fears of her father marrying her to a hedge knight is to ignore the overwhelming manipulation and coercion that is in play during the council meeting. At that point Sansa wants more than anything to convince Cersei that she can be a good wife to Joffrey and her words against her sister are spoken in rash haste to assure them of such. Observe what Cersei said just before:

The queen looked at her, troubled, and yet Sansa could see kindness in her clear green eyes. “Child,” she said, “if I could truly believe that you were not like your father, why nothing should please me more than to see you wed to my Joffrey. I know he loves you with all his heart.” She sighed. “And yet, I fear that Lord Varys and the Grand Maester have the right of it. The blood will tell. I have only to remember how your sister set her wolf on my son.”

These are not the words of a girl who is out to tell lies at any cost for her own benefit, but one who has been only just been released from captivity into a hostile and coercive good cop/bad cop atmosphere and is threatened with losing the person she believes is her great love through no fault of her own. Cersei and the others are only too willing to take advantage of Sansa’s confusion and infatuation for Joffrey to get her to do what they want.

However, what the council meeting also reveals is that when it comes to the safety of the father Sansa is neither unthinking nor unfeeling. She shows repeated reluctance to write the letters to her family, and continues to doubt that her father was involved in any treason:

“The word of your lord father’s treason will no doubt reach them soon. Better that it should come from you. You must tell them how Lord Eddard betrayed his king.”

Sansa wanted Joffrey desperately, but she did not think she had the courage to do as the queen was asking. “But he never … I don’t … Your Grace, I wouldn’t know what to say …”

The queen patted her hand. “We will tell you what to write, child. The important thing is that you urge Lady Catelyn and your brother to keep the king’s peace.”

“It will go hard for them if they don’t,” said Grand Maester Pycelle. “By the love you bear them, you must urge them to walk the path of wisdom.”

“Your lady mother will no doubt fear for you dreadfully,” the queen said. “You must tell her that you are well and in our care, that we are treating you gently and seeing to your every want. Bid them to come to King’s Landing and pledge their fealty to Joffrey when he takes his throne. If they do that … why, then we shall know that there is no taint in your blood, and when you come into the flower of your womanhood, you shall wed the king in the Great Sept of Baelor, before the eyes of gods and men.”

… wed the king … The words made her breath come faster, yet still Sansa hesitated. “Perhaps … if I might see my father, talk to him about …”

“Treason?” Lord Varys hinted.

“You disappoint me, Sansa,” the queen said, with eyes gone hard as stones. “We’ve told you of your father’s crimes. If you are truly as loyal as you say, why should you want to see him?”

“I … I only meant …” Sansa felt her eyes grow wet. “He’s not … please, he hasn’t been … hurt, or … or …”

“Lord Eddard has not been harmed,” the queen said.

“But … what’s to become of him?”

“That is a matter for the king to decide,” Grand Maester Pycelle announced ponderously.

If Sansa was hell-bent on betraying her family in order to secure her marriage to Joffrey, the above conversation should have gone a lot smoother, I’d imagine. Instead, she finally agrees to write the letters because she thinks that it is Joffrey’s love for her that will safeguard her father, only on the condition that she can persuade her family not to rebel. The observation that a king has to be stern with rebels is after all the truth. It’s a political reality that Sansa is aware of, and her concern is to ensure her father’s life through seeking mercy from Joff.

Considering the mess that was brought on the North and their allies after Robb declared himself KITN, I’d say taking Sansa’s “advice” might have saved a lot of lives and sorrow in the long run. As for being responsible for the deaths of everyone in the South besides Arya, I’d be interested to know how you arrived at that conclusion and where is the quote from GRRM supporting this?

The observation that she is a ghost before her time in KL is because people are too scared to be seen talking to her, not through any malfeasance on her part, but because she’s Ned Stark’s daughter aka the man who has accused Joff of not being the rightful heir. To talk to her could be seen as colluding with the enemies and no one is more afraid of their skin than the courtiers in the RK.

I also think you’ll find that her using Barristan Selmy’s cloak to protect her dress does not point to any thoughtlessness, but has a lot more symbolic meaning when placed against her later actions with Sandor’s cloak. Sansa is the only one in the throne room that day who shows any compassion towards Barristan!

They all laughed then, Joffrey on his throne, and the lords standing attendance, Janos Slynt and Queen Cersei and Sandor Clegane and even the other men of the Kingsguard, the five who had been his brothers until a moment ago. Surely that must have hurt the most, Sansa thought. Her heart went out to the gallant old man as he stood shamed and red-faced, too angry to speak. Finally he drew his sword.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Yes the courtiers are shunning Sansa due to her father being a traitor. Sorry I was not clear in my posting. Sansa though is a turncloak so to speak in how she is justifying her actions by making up things about her family.

My father will marry me to a hedge knight. My sister has traitor's blood...etc etc.

Sansa has paid for her mistakes, and I do see her changing. There is a little bit of foreshadowing in AGoT..that might relate to Sansa and LF.

When at last he reached the bottom, a narrow, muddy trail along the water’s edge, Littlefinger was lazing against a rock and eating an apple. He was almost down to the core. “You are growing old and slow, Stark,” he said, flipping the apple casually into the rushing water.

Little Finger never eats the core of the apple.

Sansa's name comes from a type of apple.

Could be foreshadowing that in the end. Sansa is a Stark and she has now opened her eyes and is seeing. She no longer looks at outward appearances.

She prays at the Sept and in the godswood. She sings the mother song to Sandor and she prays for his healing. She is mothering SweetRobin. She is growing stronger I believe in her core to the honor and family duty to her family and the north. I sincerely hope GRRM continues to write her in this growth pattern.

[Lady Arya's Song]

Brash, yes I am not trying to bash Sansa, She is one of my favorite characters. I have alot of empathy for her and probably because I too am a bit of Sansa. I do say that Sansa and Theon have similar story arch..except Sansa is an innocent young girl and Theon no. There are parallels to their storylines.

I did simplify what I wrote because it would just be so darn long to write it all out which is why I said it makes more sense to read Theon's povs and Sansa's side by side to see the parallels and the contrasts in their story archs.

I have followed along on the Sansa reread now for a long time and I absolutely love what you folks have done. One of my favorite threads in this whole forum.

I think people will have emotional responses on characters due to their own subjective moral codes. :) My children are grown now and I am as old as Martin. I grew up as a Sansa in the sense that I wanted the Leave it to Beaver home with me in the pearls and apron. When Sansa is manipulated by the older adults ..it still felt like throwing her family under the bus..because in my own mind..family is so important. However that does not mean that I think Sansa was evil.

My issue has been with Ned, Catelyn, and the Septa. I still struggle with the fact that Ned did not gather his family up when Robert refused to allow Lady to live. Ned placed his family in danger to find out what happened to Jon Arryn?

This whole series is subjective. We each make moral calls about how GRRM has written the characters...in my case I am still hoping Sansa gets the castle, her own agency, a make up time with her sister Arya..and perhaps a dog and a few pups.

By the way my daughter who is in her twenties is an Arya. She is ambitous, fiercely independant..all the qualities that I am not. I am so proud of her but I also pray for her every night. So please no bashing..I had emotional responses to what Sansa did as a young girl, but I think Ned was so much more at fault.

[ladytiger]

I think that Sansa is one of the most likely characters to survive the series; and Martin has heavily hinted that her plot/story is going to change again. It wouldn't make sense to kill her in TWoW, when we didn't even see her in ADWD. Her story in AFFC was just starting to get the wheels turning.

[Sansa_Stark]

foreverapawn

I see Sansa surviving, but I don't see her as anything more than a pair of eyes.

[Mladen]

Yes the courtiers are shunning Sansa due to her father being a traitor. Sorry I was not clear in my posting. Sansa though is a turncloak so to speak in how she is justifying her actions by making up things about her family.

I agree with brashcandy about this. You are oversimplifying extremely difficult situation she was in. Cersei needed all her cunning to make Sansa believe her. Sansa was repeatedly saying that her father is innocent. In her childish mind, she even wanted to meet with Joffrey and try to influence him. She even thinks about exile for a few years, only to save her father. Sansa is being cornered by extremely cunning people, and she is 11 year-old girl. And, given how much work they put in convincing her about Ned, one simply has to admit that Sansa and Theon are nowhere near each other in being "turncloak". Sansa didn't betray her family knowingly, as Theon did to Starks. Sansa thought she was doing the best, for her and for the family. We see her train of thoughts when she is cornered... I think you have missed quite a bit with the post...

[brashcandy]

I don't think you were bashing her, Lady Arya, and I appreciate the general point of what you were going for. I've noted before the similarity in tone and mood between Sansa's snow Winterfell chapter and a part of Theon's ghost in winterfell chapter in ADWD. That both feel isolated and alienated in those moments comes through very clearly. My objection is to what I believe was an erroneous and negatively slanted interpretation of Sansa's actions with regard to her family in KL. Despite her disobedience and some unpleasant comments to Arya, she does not set out to betray them or to capitalize on her family's weakness at any point.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

It's too late to introduce any new deaths at this point in the game.

It's never to late for more death!!!!!!

Let me paraphrase a grrm quote:

All characters will die. The 6th book will be 1000 pages about how the snow is falling and blowing over hills. ;)

[Cas Stark]

Every time a Stark doesn't listen to the direwolf, bad things happen, so it would seem impossible that Sansa's own actions leading to the death of Lady would not have some consequence in the scheme of things if GRRM is going to be consistent with his symbolism. At this point, I don't know if she will die or not, since I find her the least appealing Stark, that probably means she won't die but Arya will.

[Le Cygne]

At this point, I don't know if she will die or not, since I find her the least appealing Stark, that probably means she won't die but Arya will.

I find her the most appealing Stark, so maybe we cancel each other out and they both live.

[ladytiger]

I find her the most appealing Stark, so maybe we cancel each other out and they both live.

Sansa has become one of my favorite characters. I didn't like her at all in AGOT; but I began to like her in ACoK, continued through ASoS, and after reading AFFC she became my favorite female character (Arya is a close second).

[Éadaoin]

Every time a Stark doesn't listen to the direwolf, bad things happen, so it would seem impossible that Sansa's own actions leading to the death of Lady would not have some consequence in the scheme of things if GRRM is going to be consistent with his symbolism.

What? Lady's death had nothing to do with Sansa not "listening" to her wolf. Joffrey says they should leave Lady behind, and so they do. I don't recall any mention of Lady protesting. Not to mention that Lady (along with the other wolves, IIRC) don't seem to pick up at all on the fact that Joff is pretty much a scumbag anyway. I recall her growling at Ilyn Payne and the Hound, but not Joffrey. I mean, Nymeria attacks him, but that's only after he starts attacking Arya. Am I misremembering?

Though being separated from Lady has left Sansa a little adrift, according to GRRM in an interview. He also adds after this that Arya, too, has been separated from her wolf, however.

[Cas Stark]

What? Lady's death had nothing to do with Sansa not "listening" to her wolf. Joffrey says they should leave Lady behind, and so they do. I don't recall any mention of Lady protesting. Not to mention that Lady (along with the other wolves, IIRC) don't seem to pick up at all on the fact that Joff is pretty much a scumbag anyway. I recall her growling at Ilyn Payne and the Hound, but not Joffrey. I mean, Nymeria attacks him, but that's only after he starts attacking Arya. Am I misremembering?

Though being separated from Lady has left Sansa a little adrift, according to GRRM in an interview. He also adds after this that Arya, too, has been separated from her wolf, however.

It has to do with the direwolves being sent by the old god's to protect the Stark children, and there being multiple examples of the wolves protecting the Starks, and yet other examples of when the Starks do not listen to their wolves...bad things happen...thus, it would stand to reason that Sansa having no wolf, a wolf dead due in some part to her own actions...would result in bad things happening to her. Robb chained up his wolf and refused to see the signs, and is dead.

Nymeria is still bringing it hard for Team Stark despite being separated from Arya, further evidence, it could be seen, that the wolves are important and their role is to protect the Starks. When Starks fail in their role to heed or protect their wolves...bad things happen. So, if GRRM, to me is consistent with this symbolism, that means to me Sansa should die. I doubt she will for the very reason that I don't like her, LOL.