[tPatQ Spoilers] How to Kill Your Dragon

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Grey Ghost could never be pinned in one spot for the taming to begin, and Cannibal apparently was too ill-tempered to be tamed.

I mean, why were they not tamed from birth, like the others?

[The Great Walrus]

I mean, why were they not tamed from birth, like the others?

I suspect that by the time they hatched, there were more dragons then suitable riders. After all, the Targs only let non-Targs bond dragons during the Dance.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Cannibal, Sheepstealer, and Grey Ghost were not born in the rookeries. They were wild. They couldnt catch Cannibal or Grey Ghost. Nettles got lucky with Sheepstealer cuz of his love of mutton.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

Cannibal, Sheepstealer, and Grey Ghost were not born in the rookeries. They were wild. They couldnt catch Cannibal or Grey Ghost. Nettles got lucky with Sheepstealer cuz of his love of mutton.

How could they have been born in the wild? Where did their wild parents come from?

I suspect that by the time they hatched, there were more dragons then suitable riders. After all, the Targs only let non-Targs bond dragons during the Dance.

This seems to be the most likely explanation.

It just seems odd/idiotic that the Targaryens would just release untamed dragons.

[Nictarion]

From what i've gathered, Balerion actually died of old age during the reign of Jaehaerys I.

That would be my guess. What was he 200 years old? That's a good run.

[Ygrain]

I won't be getting the novella any time soon but I wanted to ask: what is there about this character Nettles? As I read the description "small and brown", it immediately reminded me of CotF. What is known about her background?

[Nictarion]

I won't be getting the novella any time soon but I wanted to ask: what is there about this character Nettles? As I read the description "small and brown", it immediately reminded me of CotF. What is known about her background?

Nothing really. She lived on Dragonstone, and possibly was a Targ bastard.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I won't be getting the novella any time soon but I wanted to ask: what is there about this character Nettles? As I read the description "small and brown", it immediately reminded me of CotF. What is known about her background?

She is supposedly a "seed," someone with bastard Targaryen blood who steps up to tame one of the wild dragons. However, I think it's left completely ambiguous as to whether she actually is a bastard Targaryen, or if she just stepped up for the hell of it. In which case, the entire "must have Targ blood to be able to ride a dragon" thing goes out the window or is at least compromised, and it becomes more an issue of access -- only Targaryens ride dragons because they're the only ones who have them, not because they're the only ones who can.

The two things that stick out to me regarding Nettles are:

1. Not about Nettles per se, but plenty of "seeds" with far less ambiguous Targaryen/Valyrian features get roasted and/or are unable to tame any of the dragons, even the so-called tame ones. While we obviously know that not having Targ features doesn't mean squat, I do think it's meant to throw Nettles' real background into question. It also shows that just having that blood doesn't necessarily mean automatic success.

2. The way Nettles tames Sheepstealer has fuck all to do with magic dragon-binding or blood sparkles and much, much more to do with patience and common sense. What do you do to make a dragon named Sheepstealer get comfortable with you? You bring him a bunch of damn sheep to eat and build a rapport. Once he knows you, trusts you and is used to you, then you try to ride him. Meaning, I think it's possible that anyone, regardless of blood, could have a chance of success with a dragon if they put in some work and effort and don't just vault on the thing's back.

ETA: The "small and brown" thing didn't make me think of the Children so much as it made me think that she could easily not be a Targ bastard at all, and was really just some random girl.

[The Great Walrus]

She is supposedly a "seed," someone with bastard Targaryen blood who steps up to tame one of the wild dragons. However, I think it's left completely ambiguous as to whether she actually is a bastard Targaryen, or if she just stepped up for the hell of it. In which case, the entire "must have Targ blood to be able to ride a dragon" thing goes out the window or is at least compromised, and it becomes more an issue of access -- only Targaryens ride dragons because they're the only ones who have them, not because they're the only ones who can.

The two things that stick out to me regarding Nettles are:

1. Not about Nettles per se, but plenty of "seeds" with far less ambiguous Targaryen/Valyrian features get roasted and/or are unable to tame any of the dragons, even the so-called tame ones. While we obviously know that not having Targ features doesn't mean squat, I do think it's meant to throw Nettles' read background into question. It also shows that just having that blood doesn't necessarily mean automatic success.

2. The way Nettles tames Sheepstealer has fuck all to do with magic dragon-binding or blood sparkles and much, much more to do with patience and common sense. What do you do to make a dragon named Sheepstealer get comfortable with you? You bring him a bunch of damn sheep to eat and build a rapport. Once he knows you, trusts you and is used to you, then you try to ride him. Meaning, I think it's possible that anyone, regardless of blood, could have a chance of success with a dragon if they put in some work and effort and don't just vault on the thing's back.

I also think that the taming process could be significantly different for different dragons. Vermithor and Silverwing were tamed by two strong, domineering men, where as Sheepstealer was tamed through a slow process of building trust between Nettle and the dragon.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I also think that the taming process could be significantly different for different dragons. Vermithor and Silverwing were tamed by two strong, domineering men, where as Sheepstealer was tamed through a slow process of building trust between Nettle and the dragon.

Yes, two strong, domineering men who ended up being treacherous, destructive, backstabbing drunks. If anything, the novella shows that having dragons does not make you fit to be a ruler, and that a morally lacking person in possession of a dragon (like Aemond) can be something horrific on a large scale, when the rider doesn't use the animal strategically but just starts wantonly burning things. The idea that anyone "deserves" to rule merely due to possessing dragons was always an illogical one; after the novella, it becomes downright stupid.

[King Hammer]

Yes, two strong, domineering men who ended up being treacherous, destructive, backstabbing drunks. If anything, the novella shows that having dragons does not make you fit to be a ruler, and that a morally lacking person in possession of a dragon (like Aemond) can be something horrific on a large scale, when the rider doesn't use the animal strategically but just starts wantonly burning things. The idea that anyone "deserves" to rule merely due to possessing dragons was always an illogical one; after the novella, it becomes downright stupid.

On the other hand, one could say that this is even more reason to give the rule to the person with dragons. Aemond is only going around burning everything in sight because they are in the middle of a war. That war is between two factions that both have dragons, meaning dragons will necessarily be used for death and destruction. In a situation such as the one of the current ASOIAF narrative, there is only one party with dragons. One could say that it is an ethical imperative to give the rule to the one who holds dragons to avoid devastating war. If dragons are possessed by the monarch, they are less likely to be used against innocents due to the monarch's interest in securing good public opinion. People are also much less likely to rebel against a monarch who has dragons (and yes, in my opinion, rebelling in a society such as Westeros is almost always immoral because it is almost never based on principle and rather is simply a naked power grab). Otherwise, there is bound to be war because no monarch can sit idly by while a potential enemy flies around on a massive fire-breathing beast, flaunting his or her brute power. I realize this sounds a bit perverted, as I am essentially saying that it might be better to simply give power to whatever brute force possesses the greatest strength in arms. This is not to say that this is just in any way, but in a realpolitik way, in a society so dominated by personal warfare as Westeros, perhaps putting whatever warlord who is most powerful on the throne is moral because it is the best way to avoid death and destruction that would result in a war against that brutal warlord. As they said in The Wire, deserve got nothin' to do with it, and in Westeros, where there is surely no hope of changing the world to be more just, maybe the only good that can be done is to avoid war at all costs. In a society such as ours, power is channeled through institutions and such a situation would never be tolerated by the populace. We do not live in fear that if Mitt Romney loses the election, he will declare war on Barack Obama and we will see massive civilian casualties, but if we did, and Mitt Romney had a dragon, maybe it would be better to just give him the presidency, is all I'm saying. :wacko:

That comes from a place of accepting the terrible power structures that exist in Westeros.Obviously a more moral solution would be to just eradicate dragons from existence, and less realistically, to change the hell out of that society.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

On the other hand, one could say that this is even more reason to give the rule to the person with dragons. Aemond is only going around burning everything in sight because they are in the middle of a war. That war is between two factions that both have dragons, meaning dragons will necessarily be used for death and destruction.

Uh, yes? All the more reason that 1. these nutcases shouldn't have dragons and 2. them having dragons doesn't make them worthy or quality rulers. All it did was cause more misery for innocent people. Fuck them.

[Barty]

I also found SunFyre's death to be interesting. He was wounded badly but that's not what kills him. His wounds become infected and start to rot - its the infection which kills him. Maybe a maester poisoned him(perhaps for revenge - SunFyre was the one who ate a Grand Maester). Also the fact that a dragon's wounds can get infected probably points to dragons not being invulnerable to disease/poison.

[The Great Walrus]

I also found SunFyre's death to be interesting. He was wounded badly but that's not what kills him. His wounds become infected and start to rot - its the infection which kills him. Maybe a maester poisoned him(perhaps for revenge - SunFyre was the one who ate a Grand Maester). Also the fact that a dragon's wounds can get infected probably points to dragons not being invulnerable to disease/poison.

Well it seems that dragons are at the very least resistant to disease and infections, seeing as Sunfyre was able to lose an eye and recover from that. What pushed him over the edge was the fact that one of his wings was essentially torn and damaged beyond repair.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well it seems that dragons are at the very least resistant to disease and infections, seeing as Sunfyre was able to lose an eye and recover from that. What pushed him over the edge was the fact that one of his wings was essentially torn and damaged beyond repair.

I think this might also be a clue as to how to take them down; their wings seem relatively delicate or at least vulnerable. If you can render them incapable of flight, you can mitigate a lot of their worst damage and/or make them easier to eventually kill.

[IRON BANK]

The fate of the last two dragons lead me to believe we have not seen the last of them even with the eggs that Dany has and the reports that they have all died out.

The maesters said something to the effect that protecting your dragons and keeping them inside will effect their size or stunt their growth. At the last part of dance it seems that Danys two dragons cleared out the great pyramids made them their home and were leaving and coming back at will. So who knows how big they are, ot have gotten.

[franko99]

Yes, two strong, domineering men who ended up being treacherous, destructive, backstabbing drunks. If anything, the novella shows that having dragons does not make you fit to be a ruler, and that a morally lacking person in possession of a dragon (like Aemond) can be something horrific on a large scale, when the rider doesn't use the animal strategically but just starts wantonly burning things. The idea that anyone "deserves" to rule merely due to possessing dragons was always an illogical one; after the novella, it becomes downright stupid.

Somehow I'm not surprise this is what you get from reading this novell, and I agree Dragons alone is not enough to make anyone special or making him/her fit to rule and in the end, dragons can cause more destruction than what they're worth

She is supposedly a "seed," someone with bastard Targaryen blood who steps up to tame one of the wild dragons. However, I think it's left completely ambiguous as to whether she actually is a bastard Targaryen, or if she just stepped up for the hell of it. In which case, the entire "must have Targ blood to be able to ride a dragon" thing goes out the window or is at least compromised, and it becomes more an issue of access -- only Targaryens ride dragons because they're the only ones who have them, not because they're the only ones who can.

I also believe Nettles background is keeping in the dark, so fans can still debate if Valyrian blood means something when taming a dragon, or if anyone who is smart and bold enough can do it. Depending on which side of this discussion you are, you will "see what you want to see" so to speak.

And it will come again in TWOW if/when Tyrion ride one of Dany's, the fandom, and specially this forum will be divided by: a ) Tyrion is a secret Targ, and b ) No, he's just Martin's favorite, and anyone witty and brave (like Tyrion) could have done it.

GRRM likes to keep things ambiguous so we can spend the next 6 years debating while waiting ADOS XD

[Maia]

The way Nettles tames Sheepstealer has fuck all to do with magic dragon-binding or blood sparkles and much, much more to do with patience and common sense. What do you do to make a dragon named Sheepstealer get comfortable with you? You bring him a bunch of damn sheep to eat and build a rapport. Once he knows you, trusts you and is used to you, then you try to ride him.

Of course, you can't tame wild adult carnivores iRL that way... not sufficiently for them to allow you to manhandle them. They could learn to tolerate your presence and allow you to lightly touch them, but even that should have taken much longer than 2-3 months that it seems to in TPatQ. If Nettle had been feeding Sheepstealer for years - and where would she get the necessary flocks of sheep? - then you could say that it had "fuck all" to do with magic.

There is also the fact that Vermithor and Silverwing didn't bond with people who fed them and cleaned their stables.

And that actual Targaryens had much better than 20:1 odds of surviving a bonding attempt to a previously ridden dragon.

So, yea, I know that you think that only Starks should be allowed sparkly speshul blood, but I'd say that we saw was deliberately inconclusive.

Re: Cannibal, Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost, they were all of different ages, so they couldn't have been from an overlooked egg clutch or whatever. Also, we have seen that hatchlings need to be fed for the first several months of their lives.

So, yes, I imagine that they were hatched by Targaryens and abandoned because their intended masters died or chose to bond with an older dragon that became available due to deaths in the family. Not sure how and why they managed to escape into the wild... but then, if Dany's dragons are any guide, then it is much more difficult to keep an unclaimed dragon restrained than a (previously) bonded one.

[Ragnorak]

2. The way Nettles tames Sheepstealer has fuck all to do with magic dragon-binding or blood sparkles and much, much more to do with patience and common sense. What do you do to make a dragon named Sheepstealer get comfortable with you? You bring him a bunch of damn sheep to eat and build a rapport. Once he knows you, trusts you and is used to you, then you try to ride him. Meaning, I think it's possible that anyone, regardless of blood, could have a chance of success with a dragon if they put in some work and effort and don't just vault on the thing's back.

ETA: The "small and brown" thing didn't make me think of the Children so much as it made me think that she could easily not be a Targ bastard at all, and was really just some random girl.

I completely agree about the doubts surrounding Nettles status as "a seed." The section of her taming the dragon is even separated from the other candidates in the narrative where the others are introduced amidst the seed background story and their own Valyrian features.

What struck me about Nettles was that she used sheep to tame a dragon. While this does have a certain common sense aspect to it given that the dragon is Sheepstealer, supposedly the whole Valyrian Dragon Empire in Essos was started by people who were originally sheep herders. This very mundane dragon taming stands out in contrast to the magical dragon taming we're told a sheep-centric society managed to achieve. Clearly they had magic since we have valyrian steel blades, their roads, and architecture like we see on Dragonstone. We also have Mirri Maz Duur who is a magic wielding maegi who worships the Great Shepherd and expresses her hatred for Dothraki destruction in terms of what they burn. It invites speculation about the origins of the Valyrian Freehold.

[Gurkhal]

I completely agree about the doubts surrounding Nettles status as "a seed." The section of her taming the dragon is even separated from the other candidates in the narrative where the others are introduced amidst the seed background story and their own Valyrian features.

What struck me about Nettles was that she used sheep to tame a dragon. While this does have a certain common sense aspect to it given that the dragon is Sheepstealer, supposedly the whole Valyrian Dragon Empire in Essos was started by people who were originally sheep herders. This very mundane dragon taming stands out in contrast to the magical dragon taming we're told a sheep-centric society managed to achieve. Clearly they had magic since we have valyrian steel blades, their roads, and architecture like we see on Dragonstone. We also have Mirri Maz Duur who is a magic wielding maegi who worships the Great Shepherd and expresses her hatred for Dothraki destruction in terms of what they burn. It invites speculation about the origins of the Valyrian Freehold.

Not to mention that it also makes us wonder about possible connections between the Valyrians and the later Sheep People.