Who is the Harpy: Hizdahr zo Loreq or Reznak mo Reznak

[Makk]

 

This makes no sense,to me. If they killed Danerys, Skahaz' power would cease to exist anyway.. whether Hizdhar was framed or not. There is something personal between Skahaz and Hizdhar, but Skahaz had also been opposed to all the other great families..Barristan, Daario, Dany's bloodriders , even the unsullied would have no interest in staying in Meereen without Dany, so Skahaz would have no support beyond his brazen beasts.

We have first hand proof that he can regain his power because that is exactly what happened after Daenerys vanished.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

 

Then they should have researched Hizdhar's tastes a little better.. but as it was his confectioner, that should have been known..

 

Hizdhar is slender , but tall. He's not a particularly small person.

 

Obviously, a few locusts wouldn't kill anyone..would Hizdhar have needed to eat 2/3 of the bowl ? .. 1/2 ? This would still be a poorly conceived plan, if the intent was to kill someone.

Belwas gorged himself and vomited early. He may have very well eaten an overdose of the poison and retched it all out again before it could do it's real work.

 

Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you, just that that is a legitimate theory.

 

We have first hand proof that he can regain his power because that is exactly what happened after Daenerys vanished.

...and could come back anytime. The freedmen are waiting for her.

 

But nobody will wait for dead Dany. The Shavepate and his entire family would hope they'll "only" be crucified in that instance.

[Makk]

 

...and could come back anytime. The freedmen are waiting for her.

 

But nobody will wait for dead Dany. The Shavepate and his entire family would hope they'll "only" be crucified in that instance.

Supposing Daenerys was killed, Barristan would at the very least seek justice and try to find her killer. The Shavepate would be waiting in exactly the same way as he did when Daenery vanished. Hizdhar would be arrested and executed. The Shavepate would resume control of the Brazen Beasts and the only remaining power he needs within the city would be the unsullied. They would not just vanish, they have no where to go and it is not unreasonable he would be able to get them onside.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Supposing Daenerys was killed, Barristan would at the very least seek justice and try to find her killer. The Shavepate would be waiting in exactly the same way as he did when Daenery vanished. Hizdhar would be arrested and executed. The Shavepate would resume control of the Brazen Beasts and the only remaining power he needs within the city would be the unsullied. They would not just vanish, they have no where to go and it is not unreasonable he would be able to get them onside.

Not enough. Not nearly enough.

 

Who will inherit the leadership from Dany? At least cloak&dagger, probably open civil war. Will the Freedmen stick around? Nope, they'll quietly slip away.

 

Currently (and for the next couple decades), Dany is the only person who can keep the party together.

[Makk]

Not enough. Not nearly enough.

 

Who will inherit the leadership from Dany? At least cloak&dagger, probably open civil war. Will the Freedmen stick around? Nope, they'll quietly slip away.

 

Currently (and for the next couple decades), Dany is the only person who can keep the party together.

And where do you think all the freedman are going to go?

[Light a wight tonight]

Yet Tyrion was a terrible judge of character when it came to Shae...The epitome of "sweet innocence" in his eyes (his thoughts - and that right a conversation where Shae was being really gross in the way she talked about Lollys and her gang rape and showed her no sympathy.

He also got completely fooled by Sansa, thinking about how she is so dutiful, and so religious, always going to godswood to pray. :D 

Basically, Tyrion is a terrible judge of character when it comes to women. He has blind spots, gets wrapped up in his idea of who a woman is, and just doesn't get them. Except Cersei, he knows her very well.

 

I think Tyrion was under no illusions regarding Shae, but couldn't resist her charms regardless, like an alcoholic who knows booze is harming him but continues to drink. 

 

Sansa has everyone fooled. She has a false public face, saying just the right things to survive and almost never letting her true feelings be seen. Sandor, Joff, Tyrion, Littlefinger, Cersei, they all see what she wants them to see or read into her character what they want to see there.

 

This isn't to say that he's a good judge of women. After all growing up his closest female family member was Cersei.

[Poupsi]

I'd rather think SKahaz mo Kandaq the Shavepate is the Harpy, but he is only the armed hand of Galazza Galare who is for me the Perfumed Sheneschal, just like Littlefinger used Lyn Corbray to discredit the Lords Declarant. Hizdahr is a puppet who is actually siding with Dany now that he is King, and Reznak just an opportunistic craven (nothing really), IMO.

[bemused]

Since this has come back around...

Not enough. Not nearly enough.

Who will inherit the leadership from Dany? At least cloak&dagger, probably open civil war. Will the Freedmen stick around? Nope, they'll quietly slip away.

Currently (and for the next couple decades), Dany is the only person who can keep the party together.

 

And where do you think all the freedman are going to go?

I agree with Bright Blue Eyes.. If Dany was discovered to be dead, even if Barristan  "sought justice" (or took vengeance) he would have no reason to stay, once that was achieved. The sellswords might stay or go , but if they stayed, it might be for another side. We see that Skahaz couldn't get the co-operation of the Unsullied without Barristan to convince them. Skahaz has the Brazen beasts, but would it be enough ? The Mother's men?..I'm not entirely sure, but I think they might leave...

If the Unsullied followed Barristan, which seems most likely, I suspect the Mother's Men might too.. after all, they would most likely wind up as slaves again if they stayed...and of course, all of the freedmen would be in the same boat. I'm sure many would hope to try their luck elsewhere.. perhaps some would try to reach Lazar (sp?).. or even try taking the Demon Road rather than become enslaved.

Skahaz is the only player likely to try to uphold Dany's vision, but unless he had a live Dany to support him, I don't think he could last long, with everyone else in the region against him. He has no connections to other non- slaving powers.

I'd rather think SKahaz mo Kandaq the Shavepate is the Harpy, but he is only the armed hand of Galazza Galare who is for me the Perfumed Sheneschal, just like Littlefinger used Lyn Corbray to discredit the Lords Declarant. Hizdahr is a puppet who is actually siding with Dany now that he is King, and Reznak just an opportunistic craven (nothing really), IMO.

Skahaz cannot be connected to the Harpy, IMO. He is the one who has been advocating harsh measures to be taken against the slaving houses.

Hizdahr is not really a puppet, a mere puppet wouldn't have figured so prominently in a Meereenese power grab. The GG supports him to become King and start a new Dynasty. He already had great power in his own right, before Dany arrived - was widely traveled and had many connections in high places in the other slaving cities.. the Harpy will not live forever, but if the plan to get Hiizdahr on the throne succeeded, he and his heirs might hold the rulership for a very long time. He's more of a partner than a puppet.

Reznak, by comparison, has constantly served as the GG's echo, and always argued against every proposal that Skahaz made.

[thehandwipes]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2015 at 8:56 AM, Annara Snow said:

But the Meereenese blot is still wrong - it's based on the fundamentally wrong idea that "peace" is something that is always wonderful and should be wanted at all costs. (The bullshit Green Grace tries to sell in her speech. It reminds me of President Snow's propaganda speech in The Hunger Games.) It is not when it means slavery and the worst kind of abuses, and that is what Hizdahr, GG and SotH want to eventually reinstall. I think this was the whole point of Dany's story. AFFC was about the cost of war, ADWD was about the cost of peace, and whether it is always really worth it. (See also Roose Bolton's "peace".) Sometimes a violent rebellion/revolution is the right thing to do.

I realize this post is quite old but I'm going to respond to it anyway (I'm sick, can't sleep, and I'm bored).  I agree wholeheartedly that a great deal of ADWD is about weighing the costs of peace as well as the hypocritical bullshit the Green Grace (aka definitely the Harpy) was spewing.  Where I think you are fundamentally wrong is the idea that the Blot is arguing that peace "is always wonderful and should be wanted at all costs."

Arguing that the peace was real is not the same thing as arguing that the peace was good.  That's a value call the reader must make for themselves.  Through five books we are well acquainted with the injustice suffered by the innocent when cruel men are allowed to act with impunity in general and through Tyrion's POV's we get a light into these particular cruel men and the injustice suffered by their victims.  We are also well acquainted with the fact that even the most righteous war/rebellion/revolution can spiral out of control leading to cycles of violence and untold suffering and the conditions by which the cruel and immoral (like Daario) thrive.  Which of these horrible choices was the "right" one is a value call.  There is no right answer, only opinions.

Finally, if the GG and Hizdahr don't plan to uphold their end of the bargain then Dany's story in ADWD isn't about "the cost of peace, and whether it's always worth it."  Rather, the point would be that war is inevitable and believing in peace is naïve.  That may be what Dany concluded, but I don't think its what GRRM intended us to conclude.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

I realize this post is quite old but I'm going to respond to it anyway (I'm sick, can't sleep, and I'm bored).  I agree wholeheartedly that a great deal of ADWD is about weighing the costs of peace as well as the hypocritical bullshit the Green Grace (aka definitely the Harpy) was spewing.  Where I think you are fundamentally wrong is the idea that the Blot is arguing that peace "is always wonderful and should be wanted at all costs."

Arguing that the peace was real is not the same thing as arguing that the peace was good.  That's a value call the reader must make for themselves.  Through five books we are well acquainted with the injustice suffered by the innocent when cruel men are allowed to act with impunity in general and through Tyrion's POV's we get a light into these particular cruel men and the injustice suffered by their victims.  We are also well acquainted with the fact that even the most righteous war/rebellion/revolution can spiral out of control leading to cycles of violence and untold suffering and the conditions by which the cruel and immoral (like Daario) thrive.  Which of these horrible choices was the "right" one is a value call.  There is no right answer, only opinions.

Finally, if the GG and Hizdahr don't plan to uphold their end of the bargain then Dany's story in ADWD isn't about "the cost of peace, and whether it's always worth it."  Rather, the point would be that war is inevitable and believing in peace is naïve.  That may be what Dany concluded, but I don't think its what GRRM intended us to conclude.

I think some of the Sons of the Harpy were willing to uphold their end of the bargain, to avoid Meereen being sacked once again, or a possible uprising among the freedmen, but with the Volantene fleet on its way, there's no way that a lasting peace was possible.

[thehandwipes]

If the Meerenese nobles (aka Sons of the Harpy) didn't want there city sacked by Yunkai, its unlikely they would have wanted their city sacked by Volantis.  As long as they have a share of the power, they have everything to lose. 

As far as Yunkai is concerned its impossible to say what they might have done, its just speculation.  But the point the Blot is making remains the same, the peace held until Barristan broke it.  The Volantis argument seems to be based on the idea that its alright for "us" to break the peace because "they" certainly would have eventually.  But we can't possibly know that, and it doesn't change the fact that the peace held until "we" broke it.

[SeanF]

7 minutes ago, thehandwipes said:

If the Meerenese nobles (aka Sons of the Harpy) didn't want there city sacked by Yunkai, its unlikely they would have wanted their city sacked by Volantis.  As long as they have a share of the power, they have everything to lose. 

As far as Yunkai is concerned its impossible to say what they might have done, its just speculation.  But the point the Blot is making remains the same, the peace held until Barristan broke it.  The Volantis argument seems to be based on the idea that its alright for "us" to break the peace because "they" certainly would have eventually.  But we can't possibly know that, and it doesn't change the fact that the peace held until "we" broke it.

Well, we know from Tyrion's POV that there was a peace party in Yunkai, but there was also a war party.  Some Yunkish wanted to storm the city, as did the mercenary captain Bloodbeard.

My point is that once hundreds of Volantene ships and thousands of their soldiers turn up, it's going to be very hard for the Yunkish to persuade them to go home again.

As it happens, it was not Barristan who broke the peace.  The Yunkish treated the stampede in Danzakh's Pit as a breach of the peace terms, and began lobbing infected corpses into the city as a result.  That's when Barristan decided to attack.

[thehandwipes]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Well, we know from Tyrion's POV that there was a peace party in Yunkai, but there was also a war party.  Some Yunkish wanted to storm the city, as did the mercenary captain Bloodbeard.

My point is that once hundreds of Volantene ships and thousands of their soldiers turn up, it's going to be very hard for the Yunkish to persuade them to go home again.

As it happens, it was not Barristan who broke the peace.  The Yunkish treated the stampede in Danzakh's Pit as a breach of the peace terms, and began lobbing infected corpses into the city as a result.  That's when Barristan decided to attack.

If I remember correctly (and I may not, I'm a bit loopy), the marriage to Hizdahr was part of the peace deal with Yunkai.  Demanding the death of the dragons was not unreasonable under the circumstances and when the King of Meerene seemed amenable Barristan arrested him.  Only then did they start lobbing corpses into the city.  I'm not trying to argue that Yunkai was at all times unprovocative and sincere until mean ol' Barry had to go start a war for no reason.  They rule a city based on sexual slavery.  They are disgusting and we should hate them.  GRRM clearly knew what he was doing when he chose Dany's adversaries in Slavers Bay.  People who train child soldiers, engage in pedophilia and sex trafficking, and people whose favorite pastime is human cock fighting are not likely to garner a lot of sympathy.  And its on this that he builds his narrative about peace being a grueling and costly sacrifice, and sometimes every bit as violent as war.

Volantis is there to serve the plot, they aren't a part of Dany's internal struggle against the Dragon Within, which is what the Blot is discussing.  Arguing about what would have happened if Volantis had shown up while Dany was still ruling Meerene is as pointless as arguing about what would have happened if the South won the Civil War.  More pointless even because this is a fictional story with a narrative, constructed in a certain way by an author.  We might as well argue about what would have happened if Robb had never attacked the Cragg.  It doesn't matter because the story was never going to unfold that way.

[Goldhands]

3 hours ago, thehandwipes said:

If I remember correctly (and I may not, I'm a bit loopy), the marriage to Hizdahr was part of the peace deal with Yunkai.  Demanding the death of the dragons was not unreasonable under the circumstances and when the King of Meerene seemed amenable Barristan arrested him.  Only then did they start lobbing corpses into the city.  I'm not trying to argue that Yunkai was at all times unprovocative and sincere until mean ol' Barry had to go start a war for no reason.  They rule a city based on sexual slavery.  They are disgusting and we should hate them.  GRRM clearly knew what he was doing when he chose Dany's adversaries in Slavers Bay.  People who train child soldiers, engage in pedophilia and sex trafficking, and people whose favorite pastime is human cock fighting are not likely to garner a lot of sympathy.  And its on this that he builds his narrative about peace being a grueling and costly sacrifice, and sometimes every bit as violent as war.

Volantis is there to serve the plot, they aren't a part of Dany's internal struggle against the Dragon Within, which is what the Blot is discussing.  Arguing about what would have happened if Volantis had shown up while Dany was still ruling Meerene is as pointless as arguing about what would have happened if the South won the Civil War.  More pointless even because this is a fictional story with a narrative, constructed in a certain way by an author.  We might as well argue about what would have happened if Robb had never attacked the Cragg.  It doesn't matter because the story was never going to unfold that way.

Actually Drogon broke the peace by attacking the fighting pit and then the Yunkai beheaded poor Groleo