Cache found at the Fist of First Men by Ghost - who left it? Any ideas?

[newagezombie]

Glokta, you're assuming Benjen knows the danger too though. One of Mormont's reasons for the ranging was to find out more about the wights after they attacked him. The NW didn't even really encounter any more wights until the Battle at the FotFM, when they attacked in force. Benjen could have just as easily encountered a wight and decided to find out more, he had no way of knowing the NW would find more wights and start go on a ranging. If he had just run back to the wall and said there were dead things in the woods, he would probably have been sent right back out to discover more about them. If Benjen continued travelling north past the FotFM he probably didn't even know about the ranging, and could not have warned the NW about an attack if he didn't know they were there. That's even assuming that he is still alive. Because honestly, until the next book comes out, we're just working with assumptions and presumptions.

I agree with you that Benjen's character would have warned the NW about the wights/ww before they attacked the FotFM. I would still maintain that, if it was him who made the cache, he probably made it on his way further north a few weeks/months before the ranging, when Jon said it was recently dug I took it to mean something in that timespan), so he did not know about the attack because he is to the north, if he is even still alive.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Glokta, you're assuming Benjen knows the danger too though. One of Mormont's reasons for the ranging was to find out more about the wights after they attacked him. The NW didn't even really encounter any more wights until the Battle at the FotFM, when they attacked in force. Benjen could have just as easily encountered a wight and decided to find out more, he had no way of knowing the NW would find more wights and start go on a ranging. If he had just run back to the wall and said there were dead things in the woods, he would probably have been sent right back out to discover more about them. If Benjen continued travelling north past the FotFM he probably didn't even know about the ranging, and could not have warned the NW about an attack if he didn't know they were there. That's even assuming that he is still alive. Because honestly, until the next book comes out, we're just working with assumptions and presumptions.

I agree with you that Benjen's character would have warned the NW about the wights/ww before they attacked the FotFM. I would still maintain that, if it was him who made the cache, he probably made it on his way further north a few weeks/months before the ranging, when Jon said it was recently dug I took it to mean something in that timespan), so he did not know about the attack because he is to the north, if he is even still alive.

Why would he leave them dragon glass wrapped in a NW cloak, if he didn't know about the threat?

As I said before, for all he knew, the NW had no idea that there was a threat by the others. He was aware enough to leave them dragon glass, the weapon against whitewalkers and not warn the nw about them and tell them about the proper use of the dragonglass? I don't buy it!

It does make a lot of sense for Coldhands to have access to the dragonglass, through the CotF and not show himself to the NW, due to him being a wight.

That Benjen was responsible is 95% wishful thinking, that he is still alive, after more then 2 years alone north of the wall with WW, wights and 100.000 wildlings as enemies. There is no reliable source of food up there, as seen in the Bran chapters. They had to resort to eating CH's elk and possibly cannibalism and still were close to starving and this over a much shorter period of time. Ofc Benjen has more expierence north of the wall, that still does not make him immun to starvation or freezing.

edit: On your last paragraph: I'm strongly assuming the cache was put there just before Jon found it, due to Ghosts wild chase through the forest, which ended exactly at that spot. No reason for him to go nuts, if it was put there weeks/months before.

[butterbumps!]

That Benjen was responsible is 95% wishful thinking, that he is still alive, after more then 2 years alone north of the wall with WW, wights and 100.000 wildlings as enemies. There is no reliable source of food up there, as seen in the Bran chapters. They had to resort to eating CH's elk and possibly cannibalism and still were close to starving and this over a much shorter period of time. Ofc Benjen has more expierence north of the wall, that still does not make him immun to starvation or freezing.

It's not wishful thinking; it's speculative, but it also helps makes sense of that Jon chapter, in particular the fact that the way Ghost led Jon and the eventual location of the cache suggests it was being buried simultaneously. And I still think that to that end, it makes more sense for Benjen to need to retain his anonymity than someone like Coldhands, who'd be my second pick for this.

Benjen probably couldn't have known about the particular attack on the Fist (which, I hasten to add, was still a good while in the future), but knew the importance of dragonglass and that horn, and thought this was the best way to help his brothers in the meantime.

It also might be worth pointing out that such a cache of dragonglass might seem to suggest some sort of CotF contact, given that they were credited for leaving similar caches to the Watch in time past. Which might also help explain why Benjen, if alive, has been able to survive; if he's in contact with the CotF he's likely not exposed in the cold and without provision or guidance. Incidentally, Benjen's story is remarkably similar to that of the Last "the CotF helped him!" Hero, and discussion of Benjen's whereabouts actually punctuates the retelling of the Last Hero's story.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

I still wouldn't like Benjen showing up 3+ years after his disappearance and just standing north of Castle Black and be like:

"Sup guys? I've been on a super secret CotF mission, left you the dragon glass, but didn't have 5minutes to talk to my nephew and explain sh*t, so what?"

That would be a massive deus ex machina imo...

edit: Also to quote Ninefingers: "You have to be realistic"

[butterbumps!]

That would be a massive deus ex machina imo...

Doesn't a deus ex machina come out of nowhere with no reasonable explanation? Should Benjen turn up alive in the next book, it wouldn't come out of nowhere-- Benjen's whereabouts are remarked on rather frequently, and it's a major mystery-- only 2 of the party of 7 have been confirmed dead (so, additionally, he's not completely alone). Then we also get clues he's been up to something-- despite the official purpose of that ranging, he's not actually tracking Waymar's party-- Craster confirms that Benjen didn't come through there after, so he's clearly not trying to retrace their steps. We also have the retelling of the Last Hero story in Bran's 4th (?) chapter, where Old Nan starts telling the story, Tyrion shows up and it's announced Benjen is beyond the Wall missing, then Bran shouts "the CotF saved him!" with the implication Benjen might also have that sanctuary. Which I think is fairly strong foreshadowing, especially as it bookends a discussion on Benjen's whereabouts.

I'd add too that if Benjen revealed himself to anyone, he'd be detained from whatever unsanctioned covert ops he's on, and if he resisted, would be charged as a deserter. Safer to be assumed missing or dead, even by Jon, as even the smallest mention that Benjen was around would result in a massive manhunt/ rescue mission.

[The Fresh PtwP]

My guess is the CoTF left the cache

I also like to think Coldhands is being warged by BR, but retains some of his memories and wanted to help his brothers in the NW out.

Benjen is probably a wight.

[newagezombie]

He may be a wight, but I'd still say he served a purpose to the plot that we don't know about yet, otherwise people wouldn't keep on bringing him up. That's why I'd say he left the cache. Having what happened to him stay as a mystery for this long, and having people keep n bringing it up, would make it pretty anticlimactic for him just to turn up as a wight, unless we find out more about what he did north of the wall.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Coldhands buried the dragon glass cache, but wrapped it in Benjen's cloak.

Coldhands having Benjen's cloak means one of two things: Benjen is dead, or Benjen is working with Bloodraven on something. If saying the NW vows in the weirwood offers special protection, then Benjen would have it same as CH, which gives us a third option: Benjen is now a Night's Wight.

[johndance]

I don't buy the Benjen rogue mission theory. He's s Stark. As we've learned, above all else Starks are about honor and loyalty. He's not going against the Lord Commander's orders to go out on this said rogue mission.

To me CoTF leaving it makes the most sense. The Others are revealing themselves again, CoTF have been known to help the NW before. They probably don't want to interact with anyone from the NW because nobody from the NW will know who they are and they're not ready to reveal themselves again yet. They would probably be mistaken for something their not.

[HannibalStark]

perhaps if Jon dug deeper he would have found Benjen....

[Minuteman]

My votes for Coldhands. The cotf know about the WW vulnerability to dragonglass and as they used to tithe it to the NW they presumably have a source. There isn't anything to suggest that Benjen knew about dragonglass and the WWs but Coldhands being affiliated with the cotf and also being very old (Leaf described him as being killed "long ago" which to a cotf would be very long ago in human terms) would certainly have known about the special nature of dragonglass. Also, keep in mind, Benjen would not have known that the NW was on it's way to the Fist so would not have known to bury the glass there. Bloodraven had likely been warging Mormount's crow for some time so he would know and Coldhands works with Bloodraven. So Coldhands imho.

[Daendrew]

It wouldn't be Bloodraven.

Potentially it was Bran seeing through the history to know it was planted there and letting Ghost and more importantly Sam know, to make up for the horrendous things he knows Bloodraven will make him do.

[Berric_Dondiedagain]

Coldhands makes more sense.

Benjen could not have buried it recently- he is dead.

.

[Lord BitterRaven]

Gotta go with Bloodraven's pet Cold Hands. He goes where Bloodraven's "thousand eyes and one" tell him to go and does what he's told to do! The dragonglass simply being there at that precise place and moment is queer, then you add the fact that if Ghost wouldn't have been there it would've gone unnoticed. That cache was "meant" to be found by Ghost, Jon, Sam, and the rest of his crew. Otherwise Sam and Gilly would be dead, there wouldn't be anyone to guide Bran through the Wall to Coldhands, which would mean no Greenseeing for Bran. Benjen wouldn't care about these events because he can't see across time like BR, so he can't put things here and there because he knows that they'll play a key role in things to come.

It's too early to proof read so I hope that makes sense.

[fael097]

There are just too many holes on Benjen theory:

-Wight presence

-Rogue mission doesn't fit a stark

-Not warning LC doesn't fit a brother

-No guarantees that ghost would smell it and lead Jon into it without magic influence

Whilst I can't find a hole on CH theory.

The moment I read the text I swore it was benjen, but that was me wishful thinking.

[falcotron]

I'm not sure why this thread was necro'd, especially since most of the responders don't seem to have read the whole argument from two years ago, but this part of the old argument intrigues me:

Thus far, we've only seen Watchmen who have not said the vows before the trees turn into wights

Do we actually know this? Do we know that Othor, Ryles, Hake, Softfoot, and Small Paul all said their vows in the Sept? (I've skipped the ones that we know are southrons or that I remembered being in Jon's "recruit class", because we can be pretty sure for them.)

(Of course it's true that we've never seen any men who definitely said their vows before the trees turn into wights, but if we only know where a tiny fraction of the Watch said their vows and only a tiny fraction of the Watch have been wighted, we shouldn't expect to have any definite answers here. It's like saying that of the 8 people killed by tornados last year, we know that 2 of them had German ancestry and don't know whether the other 6 did, and then concluding that people without German ancestry can't be killed by tornados.)

But if we do know this, then it's pretty interesting.

[Cladinator]

It was probably Benjen.

[Ser Patroclo]

Benjen Stark.

There must be thousands of corpses and goods belonging to dead Wildlings and Men of the Nightwatch in the forests, even some belonging to wights or ancient remains of white walkers. Also, Ghost is a wolf, hence he doesn't know anything about obsidian properties and how that stuff can help against White Walkers.

So Ghost has no reason at all to target the particular scent of such mantle in the forest, and even less reasons to drag Jon there. He isn't a wolf trained to look for things on his own and be rewarded.

Hence his actions may have only two possible explanations:

- Someone who knew the obsidian glass was there purposely warged into Ghost to lead Jon there. I can't think of anyone else than Bran capable of such a task, though Bloodraven might have been able. In such a case it might have been Coldhands who put those things there.

- Benjen Stark left that stuff there with his own coat, because he knew Ghost did smell his scent in Winterfell and would have been able to track it once NW men would have gone near the Fist of the first men, which is somewhat an obvious intermediate stop for NW.

I want to believe in the second choice, because I don't find particularly relevant for Bloodraven to be involved for this and dislike him warging a Stark Wolf. Also, i like the idea Benjen is alive.

I completely agree with this.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

Benjen Stark is my guess. Wasn't the Coat described as not that old?

[Diregirl]

I thought Benjen, maybe in a situation when he knew he was going to die anyway and hid the weapons, hoping someone would find them and figure out they could be used to fight the Others. That would explain why he left the coat as well - wasn't going to need it any more.