Aegon at ToJ

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So, not only he didn't ask for nothing, but asking for it was an absurd idea.

I'm trying to be serious.

Why do you think Rhaegar would have to "get something" to return to lead the army? Even if he's planning to eventually overthrow his father, it's still pretty damn obviously in his best interest to win the war and put the rebellion down.

[J. Stargaryen]

So, not only he didn't ask for nothing, but asking for it was an absurd idea.

I'm trying to be serious.

You're not doing a very good job. There was no in-story reason for Rhaegar to negotiate a price for his return. You can say it's logical all you want, but strangely you can't find any text to back you up.

Rhaegar already had sufficient motivation for returning to KL. The Targaryen dynasty was at stake. It was no time to haggle.

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar already had sufficient motivation for returning to KL. The Targaryen dynasty was at stake. It was no time to haggle.

Hate to play the devil's advocate but if he thought that siring PTWP was a greater call, it might have taken some persuading.

But I don't think that this was the case.

[finger]

I'm not even touching the Jon-is-Aegon possibility because it's flat-out ridiculous and frankly not even worth a response at this point.

As for Aegon being at the Tower, Ned came and encountered all three remaining Kingsguard. He survived and tore down the building. If Aegon was there, wouldn't Ned have encountered him? So why does Ned explicitly think that Aegon is dead?

OK, maybe they sent Aegon away from the Tower before Ned showed up. In which case, at least one of the Kingsguard would have gone with him. Yet all three are there when Ned shows up. So neither Aegon still being there when Ned shows up (if he was, Ned wouldn't think of him as being dead) nor him being sent away (one of the Kingsguard would surely have gone with him) make any sense.

Aegon was not at the Tower. Aegon is dead.

As for the "they," I think it's actually straightforward as hell: Arthur brought Wylla from Starfall, she helped deliver Jon and was his first wet nurse, and she was with Howland when they found Ned with Lyanna's body. After the people were buried, Wylla went back to Starfall with Ned when he returned the sword, they colluded on the cover story, Wylla remained at Starfall and she was there to nurse Edric Dayne and may still be there, who knows. Point is, the "they" does not need to be overcomplicated.

You're partly right,

Aegon is not Jon.

Aegon wasn't at ToJ when Ned arrived, he had fled.

You're wrong in something. Why one KG, why not be taken by the three KG? Because they were fleing, and KGs draw attention. If you want to smuggle a troddler, be best wat is in "his mother's" lap. Here it is when Ashara Dayne steps in the scene.

[J. Stargaryen]

Hate to play the devil's advocate but if he thought that siring PTWP was a greater call, it might have taken some persuading.

But I don't think that this was the case.

Except he thought Aegon was tPtwP.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You're partly right,

Aegon is not Jon.

Aegon wasn't at ToJ when Ned arrived, he had fled.

You're wrong in something. Why one KG, why not be taken by the three KG? Because they were fleing, and KGs draw attention. If you want to smuggle a troddler, be best wat is in "his mother's" lap. Here it is when Ashara Dayne steps in the scene.

But he wasn't even escorted by one Kingsguard. I'm not even saying it had to be all three. But the idea that they'd send the heir to the throne away without a single Kingsguard, when there were three to spare, stretches this beyond credulity to me. I'm not buying it, at all. Either way you cut it -- he was there when Ned came, or he had left -- there are holes you could fly Vhagar through.

I'm perfectly comfortable waiting to see who's right and wrong here, thanks.

[finger]

Here's how I interpret it, in a way that's plausible without being too much of a technical mindfuck:

Aerys: "Hightower, go find Rhaegar and tell him I command him to come back and lead the army."

Hightower: "Yessir."

Hightower finds Rhaegar.

Hightower: "Rhaegar, your father commands you to go back and command the army."

Rhaegar: "I will do that. In the meantime, you stay here with Dayne and Whent."

Hightower has no conflicting orders from Aerys that would override that. And Aerys, not knowing exactly where Hightower was, would have no way to override those orders.

Again, it is not nearly as complicated as people are making it out to be.

Do you really think possible such an interchange?

I know the usual answer is not so respectful, but I deeply disagree with your view. Sorry.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Do you really think possible such an interchange?

I know the usual answer is not so respectful, but I deeply disagree with your view. Sorry.

Uh, yeah? If Aerys's focus was on getting Rhaegar back, then I can easily see that he might neglect to give Hightower specific orders beyond that. He might just assume that Hightower would escort Rhaegar back. In any case, it provides a very easy opening for Rhaegar to 1. go back and 2. have Hightower stay without Aerys overriding the order.

It's fine if you disagree, I think there's pretty much nothing to anything you're arguing here. It's getting shredded all over the place and you're not exactly compelling me with any replies you've given.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

At your own request, the flaws...

What we have (it can be elaborated)

Rhaegar mistrusted Aerys, he planned “something” about it Mistrust seems like an assumption. "Change" was promised according to Jaime

Aerys mistrusted anyone If by this you mean Aerys was a paranoid madman, we agree

Aerys used Elia and her children as hostages As stated in the text, we agree

Rhaegar's whereabuts were unkown to Jaime, and probably Aerys, but he was in touch with “someone” out there I believe this to be an assumption, at least in part

Jon Connington was Rhaegar's best friend, together with Arthur Dayne No, "friend" according to Barristan. From JC's own POV we get only an indication of princely courtesy

Hightower obeyed Aerys over any other consideration He certainly seems to have taken his role seriously

Hightower behaviour is not proper to the Lord Commander od the Kings Guard, unless there's something more never stated in the books (btw, please tell me where it's written than Jon Snow was born at the Tower of Joy) Another assumption, as I don't think we have enough information to assess his actions

Arthur Dayne was an outstanding army leader Perhaps. He knew how to make an excellent encampment, at any rate.

Robert Rebellion was a serious threat Not perceived as such until after the defeat at Stoney Sept, which marked the entrance of the Riverlands into the fray

Hightower, Dayne and Whent are left aside in the final battle. They were not brought to the Trident, which was Rhaegar's final battle, though not the final battle of the Rebellion. That's an observation of hindsight though.

What didn't happen

Hightower didn't escort Rhaegar back to KL, nor took care of Aerys We actually do not know that this is the case

AD didn't help Rhaegar with the army We actually do not know that this is the case

JC wasn't called back Why would he be?

Lyanna wasn't allowed to KL, or Rhaegar didn't trust to take her. Why would she be?

What we can easily guess

Rhaegar asked something in exchange when he came back. He'd haggle with Aerys for the price of his coming back through some intermediare. I agree with others that this is solely your assumption

There was something of huge value at ToJ to leave three KG, not only a pregnant second wife How is a wife and child/potential heir not valuable?

My own stuff

Rhaegar wanted Aegon out of Aerys reach. He required him to be handed out. He specifically said he dare not remove them as they were critical to his father's stability

Aerys charged it to Hightower.???

Rhaegar mistrusted Hightower's loyalty and ordered him to stay at ToJ to guard Aegon, as Aerys had ordered him. In fact, not to reveal ToJ. How so?

He had to leave two is loyals to watch Hightower. Are you implying Dayne and Whent had forsworn themselves as KG?

You're wellcome to find the flaws, that's the nature of the game. And remember, this is just a game.

[Ygrain]

Except he thought Aegon was tPtwP.

But we do not know whether he still thought it at that point, and even if he did, getting the third dragon head ASAP might have been high on his list of priorities, as well.

[finger]

Why do you think Rhaegar would have to "get something" to return to lead the army? Even if he's planning to eventually overthrow his father, it's still pretty damn obviously in his best interest to win the war and put the rebellion down.

You're not doing a very good job. There was no in-story reason for Rhaegar to negotiate a price for his return. You can say it's logical all you want, but strangely you can't find any text to back you up.

Rhaegar already had sufficient motivation for returning to KL. The Targaryen dynasty was at stake. It was no time to haggle.

I find it difficult to answer everyone, especially when some people say the Rebellion was serious, while others say it was crap.

According to JC, he lost the war at Stony Sept. It's sure he feels guilty.

If it were as you say, why did Rhaegar wait so long to come back? Following your reasoning, he needed Hightower to scold him and remind him of his duty.

Allow me not to share your view. There's something missing, and I think it's Aegon.

[J. Stargaryen]

But we do not know whether he still thought it at that point, and even if he did, getting the third dragon head ASAP might have been high on his list of priorities, as well.

Exactly. So why are you building a house of cards for the sake of playing devil's advocate?

I find it difficult to answer everyone, especially when some people say the Rebellion was serious, while others say it was crap.

According to JC, he lost the war at Stony Sept. It's sure he feels guilty.

If it were as you say, why did Rhaegar wait so long to come back? Following your reasoning, he needed Hightower to scold him and remind him of his duty.

Allow me not to share your view. There's something missing, and I think it's Aegon.

That's fine. But, as Apple stated, your arguments are getting shredded all over the place. There's a reason for that, btw. So, in turn, allow the rest of us not to share your view.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I find it difficult to answer everyone, especially when some people say the Rebellion was serious, while others say it was crap.

According to JC, he lost the war at Stony Sept. It's sure he feels guilty.

If it were as you say, why did Rhaegar wait so long to come back? Following your reasoning, he needed Hightower to scold him and remind him of his duty.

Allow me not to share your view. There's something missing, and I think it's Aegon.

If Rhaegar is that isolated in Dorne, it's possible he didn't know how bad it was until he was called back. And if the Rebellion only got "serious" after a certain point, that would also easily explain why Rhaegar waited to get involved; it wouldn't have been necessary. "Scold" is a loaded word that I think also takes on too much assumption.

Because for whatever reason, that's what you want to believe. I still see nothing to suggest that other than assumptions and wishful thinking.

[finger]

Uh, yeah? If Aerys's focus was on getting Rhaegar back, then I can easily see that he might neglect to give Hightower specific orders beyond that. He might just assume that Hightower would escort Rhaegar back. In any case, it provides a very easy opening for Rhaegar to 1. go back and 2. have Hightower stay without Aerys overriding the order.

It's fine if you disagree, I think there's pretty much nothing to anything you're arguing here. It's getting shredded all over the place and you're not exactly compelling me with any replies you've given.

If you think your interchange not only is an argument, but it can shred anything, so much the better for you. Enjoy it.

We agree to disagree.

Some day GRRM will tell. I hope.

[Ygrain]

Exactly. So why are you building a house of cards for the sake of playing devil's advocate?

Can never resist whenever I see a deck :P

[finger]

Exactly. So why are you building a house of cards for the sake of playing devil's advocate?

That's fine. But, as Apple stated, your arguments are getting shredded all over the place. There's a reason for that, btw. So, in turn, allow the rest of us not to share your view.

As far as I read, my arguments are just being denyed.

For instance: asking something in exchange is an absurd idea.

I'll keep my opinion to myself.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If you think your interchange not only is an argument, but it can shred anything, so much the better for you. Enjoy it.

We agree to disagree.

Some day GRRM will tell. I hope.

What is wrong or implausible about it, specifically?

It's certainly not anymore ridiculous than the idea that Rhaegar exacted some extortion from Aerys to go back.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

As far as I read, my arguments are just being denyed.

For instance: asking something in exchange is an absurd idea.

I'll keep my opinion to myself.

You invited people to find the flaws in your arguments and people have done so.

While you are welcome to your opinion, when it is illogical, based on assumptions or lacks supporting textual proofs you should not be surprised when others point out these flaws.

[J. Stargaryen]

As far as I read, my arguments are just being denyed.

For instance: asking something in exchange is an absurd idea.

I'll keep my opinion to myself.

Is there any textual evidence to suggest otherwise?

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Mladen, on 22 Dec 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

Yeap, Vale guy oppressed the freedom of bad crackpot ideas. He should be ashamed for posting all those questions that matter :)

And I do believe that any theory should be given space... We would have never had much fun if there is no bad theories. They give us those fun moments of laughs, and when we are deprived of that, we all get angry... You are Scrooge of bad RLJ/ToJ theories :)

It's almost like free speech doesn't exist anymore. :crying:

WHY DO U HATE FREEDUM OF SPEECH VALE GUY?!?!?

Whoa. I've been reading too much about the Duck Dynasty controversy this week. It infected my mind for a second there. Carry on folks.