Aegon at ToJ

[finger]

Agreed. And to further the point about Rhaegar possibly exploiting a loophole in Hightower's orders-- if he was concerned that Aerys would compel Ser Gerold to reveal Lyanna's location, or even to return with her, all the more reason for him to find that loophole. Which also fits with my notion that Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna from his father.

Sorry, been busy.

I've chosen this post, because, it's telling. Exactly, we don't know. There are gaps in the story to be filled. So, any of us is entitled to imagine reasons, like Rhaegar was rescuing Lyanna from his father. Might be it, even though I think it was Rhaegar who upset Aerys.

Well, you don't think Rhaegar had to ask something from his father. Leaving aside that Aerys was nuts, a that's a reason to take from him someone he can damage, I guess those who write so haven't struggled with teenager children, and older. I suggest to ask some who have. That stated, let's see the timeline.

Rhaegar and Lyanna met at HH. Then we have a huge gap in the story until they fled together or whatever. By the time, Aegon was already born. In the middle, there's a lack of details. We're not told where Lyanna was, or where Aegon was born, what happend to Ashara. We can imagine that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in touch and they planned their elopement but, actualy, we don't know.

We could think here of the scene at the HOTU, when Rhaegar turned to the harp. I'm not too convinced, but he might turn to Lyanna to get the third head of the dragon. You know, Bael the Bard playing his harp, Lord Stark's daughter, the blue rose, and all that stuff.

Anyway, we have L, R, Dayne and Whent enjoying their time at ToJ, while things get wrong all about. Now, the point is if they were well communicated with the rest of the world. If fact, the whole theory stands on this little detail. I suppose they were, because in worst times, the remaninig KG were very well informed.

The Starks are roasted, but R don't find it fit to show up. Mad Aerys prompts a rebellion, and R still don't find it fit to show up. The rebellion gathers strenght, Aerys has to dismiss Merrywhether, but R must have been having a whole great time, he's nowhere to be found. Aerys names JC as his Hand. He's defeated at Stony Sept and dismisssed.

And then, the cannonical theory. Hightower is sent to fetch R. (Have you bothered to reckon who long it took him to find him?) R goes meekly to his father summons, but he commands Hightower to stay at ToJ. He might be a better midwife that Dayne or Whent :dunno:

IMHO, it stinks. All that time, R had a way to send messages to Aerys without giving himself away, or he might threaten with something. If R thought Aegon was TPTWP, he was more important that the IT, and his first priority should be having him out of danger. Aerys would refuse to release Aegon until he was pressed enough. He sent Hightower to escort him to some castle, and then someone took him to ToJ. R needed not command him anything. Hightower stayed at ToJ under Aerys orders. It was good for R, since he could count on Hightower telling Aerys where it was. Those at ToJ somehow watched each other, maybe. Now, R could go to war.

That's my view on the story, until the Trident, I havent't found anything in the books to prove it false, but I see many people don't like it.

Only one thing, when you agree to play a game, it isn't fair to abuse the other players.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That Rhaegae stayed away for such a long period of timeis most certainly strange, but that is what he did. There has been nothing in the books about Aegon being born away from home. Elia was always a sickly woman. After having been on bedrest for half a year after birthing Rhaenys, no one would ever have gotten the notion to send Elia anywhere else upon discovering she was pregnant with Aegon.

About 6 or 7 months have passed between the Battle of the Bells and the Trident. Upon his return, Rhaegar spoke to Aerys to finally summon Tywin, prepared an army, and left for the Trident. This increases the possibility of Rhaegar not having been at KL for very long upon his return, which means Hightowers seems to have been searching for a couple of months. To answer your question on that :)

Of Rhaegar had been sending messages to KL, Jaime would have told us a memory of Aerys burning a messenger who wouldn't tell Rhaegars position, instead of only remembering that Aerys had no idea where Rhaegar was.

The theory that Aegon was transported out of KL by Hightower (or anyone else for that matter) before the Trident has no textual proove. That is the problem people here have. If you can provide hints in the text, by all means, do show them to us.

[Ser Leftwich]

Well, you don't think Rhaegar had to ask something from his father. Leaving aside that Aerys was nuts, a that's a reason to take from him someone he can damage, I guess those who write so haven't struggled with teenager children, and older. I suggest to ask some who have. That stated, let's see the timeline.

OK, so Rhaegar and Aerys did negotiate, but we do not know if Rhaegar was even allowed into Maegor's Holdfast. Aerys is mad. How can you negotiate with a madman? If he could only convince Aerys that a request/bird be sent to Tywin, you speculate he (Rhaegar) could also get the concession of letting Aegon go, that seems unlikely. If Rhaegar is not willing to assert himself just to send a bird to Tywin, he is not going to ask for his sons life. Also, why doesn't Rhaegar just assert his will on the whole situation? All we know is that he did not.

Anyway, we have L, R, Dayne and Whent enjoying their time at ToJ, while things get wrong all about. Now, the point is if they were well communicated with the rest of the world. If fact, the whole theory stands on this little detail. I suppose they were, because in worst times, the remaninig KG were very well informed.

Again, the possible versus the known. Just because the 3 KG are well informed of all the events that happened after Hightower's arrival, does not mean that when it was just Rhaegar, Lyanna, Dayne, and Whent, that group was just as well informed. That they might have been well informed is possible. The lack of any action by Rhaegar and company any earlier indicates that they were not well informed, rather than that they were.

[Ygrain]

Just one detail on the theory of smuggling Aegon out of KL: it had to be Aegon and his wetnurse, and a considerable pile of swaddling clothes.

Though I'd willingly pay in gold to watch Hightower change Aegon's nappies and try to feed him Westerosi variant of formula.

[Iona]

Though I'd willingly pay in gold to watch Hightower change Aegon's nappies and try to feed him Westerosi variant of formula.

I'd be willing to donate a couple dragons, too. A few extra if we see Hightower milk the goat as well... :P

[finger]

That Rhaegae stayed away for such a long period of timeis most certainly strange, but that is what he did. There has been nothing in the books about Aegon being born away from home. Elia was always a sickly woman. After having been on bedrest for half a year after birthing Rhaenys, no one would ever have gotten the notion to send Elia anywhere else upon discovering she was pregnant with Aegon.

I mean, Rhaegar was Prince of Dragonstone, so Aegon had two places to be born at home.

About 6 or 7 months have passed between the Battle of the Bells and the Trident. Upon his return, Rhaegar spoke to Aerys to finally summon Tywin, prepared an army, and left for the Trident. This increases the possibility of Rhaegar not having been at KL for very long upon his return, which means Hightowers seems to have been searching for a couple of months. To answer your question on that :)

Are two months time enough to find someone who's hiding?

Of Rhaegar had been sending messages to KL, Jaime would have told us a memory of Aerys burning a messenger who wouldn't tell Rhaegars position, instead of only remembering that Aerys had no idea where Rhaegar was.

Obviously, if he wanted to send a message, he had to account for his father's madness.

The theory that Aegon was transported out of KL by Hightower (or anyone else for that matter) before the Trident has no textual proove. That is the problem people here have. If you can provide hints in the text, by all means, do show them to us.

But I've never pretended otherwise, of course there's no textual proof. My point is that the best chance to take Aegon out of KL before the sack, according to the story as told, is when Hightower when to ToJ. A KG escorting a prince makes whole sense (much more than a KG not escorting a prince), and I've built my storyline on this. The question is if something in the books proves the theory false. If not, it stands, as many others.

[finger]

OK, Aerys was mad. More the reason to take your son out of his reach.

AS for the rest, if we were all better informed, we shouldn't make so many assumptions, but GRRM has decided to give us just some clues so that we imagine the rest. For instance, from a couple lines in the text, we have to decide if Rhaegar was able to maintain a negotiation in the distance and get a compromise. I know it's too much, but it's as good as you get it. That's not my fault.

[Ygrain]

The question is if something in the books proves the theory false. If not, it stands, as many others.

I hereby proclaim that Aegon was smuggled from KL by Spaghetti Flying Monster. There is nothing in the books to prove it false.

[Arya kiddin']

I hereby proclaim that Aegon was smuggled from KL by Spaghetti Flying Monster. There is nothing in the books to prove it false.

:lmao:

[Iona]

I hereby proclaim that Aegon was smuggled from KL by Spaghetti Flying Monster. There is nothing in the books to prove it false.

I can't say that my mind didn't work similarly to yours when I read that sentence, but your example is more straightforward than what I could ever have come up with.

[Ser Leftwich]

OK, Aerys was mad. More the reason to take your son out of his reach.

AS for the rest, if we were all better informed, we shouldn't make so many assumptions, but GRRM has decided to give us just some clues so that we imagine the rest. For instance, from a couple lines in the text, we have to decide if Rhaegar was able to maintain a negotiation in the distance and get a compromise. I know it's too much, but it's as good as you get it. That's not my fault.

Some might say that you can't negotiate with a madman.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I mean, Rhaegar was Prince of Dragonstone, so Aegon had two places to be born at home.

And never, ever, not even once, has it been stated that Rhaegar spend any time at all on Dragonstone. Rhaegar lived in the Red Keep. He was Prince of Dragonstone, since it's the title (and keep) every heir to the throne gets.

Are two months time enough to find someone who's hiding?

It has been calculated that the Tower of Joy and KL are about 755 miles apart from each other. Traveling alone, at a fast pace, that would take about 3 weeks (21 days). At a slow pace, it would take 42 days (as calculated by the source). So from KL, Gerold would be traveling almost a month.

I don't know how quickly Gerold found out about Rhaegar's whereabouts, but it can't have been easy, otherwise, Robert (who spend some time in the Stormlands during the war) would have gone down there immediately. Which makes me think Gerold took longer than 2 months to reach ToJ.

Source: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/84563-most-precise-asoiaf-timeline-in-existence/

Obviously, if he wanted to send a message, he had to account for his father's madness.

So now you're saying that Rhaegar didn't send any messages to his father? I'm not a native speaker, so I might be interpreting this sentence of yours wrong.

But I've never pretended otherwise, of course there's no textual proof. My point is that the best chance to take Aegon out of KL before the sack, according to the story as told, is when Hightower when to ToJ. A KG escorting a prince makes whole sense (much more than a KG not escorting a prince), and I've built my storyline on this. The question is if something in the books proves the theory false. If not, it stands, as many others.

A theory stands or falls on textual proof. It is not up to us to proof your theory false, it is up to you to provide proof, to show us that it is possibly true. The argument "we have a gap of 6 months of story, so I'm thinking about things that could have happened during those 6 months, even though there is absolutely no proof that any of this has happened" is no argument at all.

You've asked us to find mistakes in your theory, and we have done so. We've asked you to show us why your theory can be true. Because, if you're capable of providing proof, we're willing to think it over. You might convince some people. But if you can't provide any argument other than "there's nothing in the text to disprove it", than we have the right to say "there's absolutely nothing to prove it."

As to whether or not it makes sense for a KG knight to travel with or without transporting a prince... Ser Barristan travelled to Robert, as a messenger, without escorting a prince, So there's an example where a KG knight is used as a messenger, as was asked for earlier, and where a KG knight travels without escorting a prince (or any other member of the royal family). Rhaegar was the crown prince. Getting him back was important, and Gerold was the highest in rank that Aerys could send of to find him.

[Disturber of Peace]

Ah, the Aejon theory.

[Ygrain]

As to whether or not it makes sense for a KG knight to travel with or without transporting a prince... Ser Barristan travelled to Robert, as a messenger, without escorting a prince, So there's an example where a KG knight is used as a messenger, as was asked for earlier, and where a KG knight travels without escorting a prince (or any other member of the royal family). Rhaegar was the crown prince. Getting him back was important, and Gerold was the highest in rank that Aerys could send of to find him.

And at that time, Barristan is Lord Commander. Which nicely busts the assumption that Hightower couldn't be sent as a messenger

[Ser Leftwich]

Ah, the Aejon theory.

More of a hypothesis that Aegon was brought to the ToJ by the non-errand boy/non-messenger but, also really errand-boy/messenger LC Hightower and the then sent onward with some stranger.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And at that time, Barristan is Lord Commander. Which nicely busts the assumption that Hightower couldn't be sent as a Messenger

Exactly :)

[house martell 2]

And at that time, Barristan is Lord Commander. Which nicely busts the assumption that Hightower couldn't be sent as a messenger

Barristan was going to the King not delivering a message away from the king...difference

[Ser Leftwich]

If Rhaegar does not trust Hightower and if Rhaegar has infinite bargaining power with Aerys, why not demand a different KG to bring Aegon, someone Rhaegar does trust?

And further, if Rhaegar's mistrust of Hightower goes far enough, why do not he, Dayne, and Whent kill Hightower at the ToJ before Rhaegar leaves?

[house martell 2]

There are tons of holes in the OP total theory BUT I do think it was possible that Aegon was at the ToJ, I just see it happening differently.

1. Hightower didn't "smuggle" Aegon out, he was sent by Aerys with him, even if he was mad he may have wanted his grandson/heir sent to safety, especially considering he was sending his son/next in line off to battle. Hightower wasn't just a message boy, he was guarding an heir (and was almost certainly not traveling alone either way, he certainly had squires and some sort of company, some of which could have been wet nurses in disguise). Also answers all questions as to why GH stayed: because his still living King ordered him to.

2. Why did the KG fight Lyanna's brother/Jon's Uncle to the death? to protect Aegon whom "he"(the rebels) had already presumably killed once. I think someone stated in this thread already "the simplest answer is usually the correct". Well 3 KG staying at the ToJ makes much more sense if an already born male Targ heir is there. I'm not arguing against R+L=J, i'm just saying they couldn't have even know Lyanna's baby would be a boy when they stayed behind (Rhaegar's leaving) and there would be some question as to his legitimacy but if GH brought the true Aegon AND Aerys commanded it they would certainly stay.

3. Ned returns Dawn, we actually know this because he thinks it AND the Daynes have it, so it is possible that Ned brought Aegon to Ashara/Septa Lemore. It could be part of the promise or as penance for Rhaenys and Elia (we know how he despises the killing of children).We assume the "they" who found Ned w/Lyanna were for Jon, but why not also for Aegon?

Yes Ned thinks of "Aegon" as dead but it's never as an independent thought, Gregor smashes a baby's head in and rapes Elia, I think that is the gist of Neds thought, and he does make certain to point out how the boy was unrecognizable.

[Ser Leftwich]

There are tons of holes in the OP total theory BUT I do think it was possible that Aegon was at the ToJ, I just see it happening differently.

Yes Ned thinks of "Aegon" as dead but it's never as an independent thought, Gregor smashes a baby's head in and rapes Elia, I think that is the gist of Neds thought, and he does make certain to point out how the boy was unrecognizable.

"Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty." AGoT p. 112

Ned thinks "children" not "daughter and fake boy because, I found the real Aegon at the ToJ."