The sad tale of Janos Slynt; Westerosi elitism at its finest.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Since the original topic rather strangely got locked, which I was dissapointed about, but it seems I have an apology to make regarding my original post, as it has a key flaw that is completely unforgivable, I am not sure what came over me. Here is the original post;

We have Janos Slynt, a common born man who rises to the status of Commander of the City Watch through what we can only assume is a competence at his job unmatched by his peers. Serving the crown faithfully and keeping the peace for years and years on end, he is faced with quite the conundrum, Eddard Stark seeks to usurp the Crown from who Slynt only knows as the rightful occupant and place it in the hands of Stannis Baratheon, a man already known to have sneered at him and attempted to put him down by making false claims of corruption against him, and worse, he is using gold to do so, Janos Slynt does not agree and does the only honourable course of action available to him, which is to side with the Crown and place Eddard Stark in the dungeons for treason, proving for once and all that Janos Slynt is not a corrupt man. For this, he is, in an act of rare benevolence from King Joffrey, named a Lord, much to the chagrin of the rest of the snobbish Lannister family, most notably Tywin and Tyrion, the former whining because "Harrenhal was the seat of Kings, and this Slynt was a butchers son." Such snobbery.

From here Lord Janos continues to serve the Crown faithfully, when the King orders the head of the treasonous Lord Eddard to be lopped off, who steps up to the plate to put Lord Eddard into position? None other than jowly Janos Slynt. He continues to do his duty, despite abuse from Cersie because the war she helped to start is making the streets unruly, this obviously gets laid at the feet of Slynt, plainly because of his common birth, Slynt must now survive in a World where practically every highborn will be looking to bring him down.

Sadly for Slynt, this happens very soon, as the Queens obnoxious little brother feasts Janos, luring him into a false sense of security, before revealing that he plans to send the man to the wall and replace him with Jacelyn Bywater, a man that just happens to have a Ser before his name, and for what I ask? Doing his duty! I say! Lord Tyrion has Janos captured and in-prisoned in a blatant violation of guest right! But of course, guest right doesn't apply to Lord Janos, because he is only common born.

From here we don't see much of Lord Janos, until he arrives at the Wall, and instantly names Jon Snow a traitor, to which he is more than entitled to do so, Jon Snow comes from traitors blood, is bastard born and we all know the treasonous nature of bastards and has been consorting with Wildlings, if Jon Snow were a true man, he'd be a dead man. So Lord Janos sends Jon to Mance, where he can prove himself and die like he should have at that Waterfall with the Halfhand. Unfortunately for Janos, another common hating man turns up to save him from this dilemna, I give you Stannis Baratheon.

What has Stannis done for the common man, I ask you? Name one instance of Stannis favouring a common born over a highborn. Oh sure, he Knights Davos, because he must be seen to be rewarding the man who risked life and limb to save him from starvation, but did he seriously expect Davos to accept the Knighthood when it would come at the expense of his finger joints? Stannis must've been snorting back laughter when he "offered" this to Davos, and furious when the smuggler actually accepted.

But he made Davos his hand, you say? Well, as evidenced here; http://asoiaf.wester...an-inside-joke/ and here; http://asoiaf.wester...-stannis-humor/ Stannis quite clearly has a nasty sense of humour, and naming Davos his hand was clearly a jape at the expense of Davos' missing finger bones, made all the worse because Davos lost his pouch at the Blackwater. Well worth giving him some shitty lands, for the extended laughs that it no doubt provided the middle Baratheon.

Now, Lord Janos puts his name into the hat for Lord Commander, and the likes of Alistair Thorne and Bowen Marsh are smart enough to see through his common birth to note that though he is wrongfully at the Wall, he is the best qualified for the job. So of course, he is immediately undermined by the self titled King, who could not bear for Slynt to succeed anywhere, noting that even the cook would be better. Samwise Gamgee, another highborn, concocts a plan to undermine Slynt, placing the very man Slynt accused of treason into the position he wanted, for extra cruelty. For although he is a bastard, Jon Snow is still highborn, especially next to Slynt.

From here, Jon Snow gets in on the act. Slynt, rightfully wary of taking orders from a man who is treasonous balks at doing what he is told by Jon Snow, showing a backbone missing from his other brothers, he tells Jon "no!" as Jon Snow knew he would, for this was all an act to make Slynt say no, so that Jon Snow would have an excuse for his execution. He sends Janos out to be hanged, but relents, instead deciding to behead him, Lord Commander Snow wanted the pleasure of killing this upjumped, upstart himself. After taking his head, he meets the eyes of Stannis Baratheon, who nods with approval, because they both know Janos Slynt dared to rise too high.

How dare he? With his jowly chops and frog features!

Westeros, keeping a brother down.

Now you have probably seen the key flaw in this, in fact it is screaming out at you. I can only apologise, it would seem that Tyrion Lannister is not a Lord. I am truly sorry about this.

Now to address some points and criticisms that I didn't get around to first time.

Michael Herman had the following to say;

If he is a commoner, then he must be full of self hatred. He basically spends all of SoS reminding people to call him m'lord, even though that title was stripped from him, and he has taken the black, not of his own free will like Mormont or Snow, but he was exiled there in disgrace. He happily kills babies, feigns loyalty until it becomes inconvenient, takes bribes, and acts like a total jerk.

His Lordship was not stripped of him, no more than Alliser Thornes Knighthood was stripped of him, he was merely forced to take the black, after a blatant disregard for guest right, (a fact which many seem keen to overlook, but oh no, butcher a bunch of Starks at a Wedding and thats terrible) and his son inhereted his Lordship. Lord Janos is a common man, raised to Lordship, but it seems everyone wants to forget that, so he takes steps to remind them.

The Broke Howard Hughes had the following to say;

Forgive me if I don't feel bad for that double dealing lying snake. He got HIMSELF killed on the wall by being a petty jealous idiot and refusing Jon's orders, I suppose thats not his fault either.

Lord Janos refused to take orders from the double dealing lying snake that was Jon Snow, at least thats how Lord Janos must've seen it. Thats forgetting that it was all an elaborate ruse crafted by Jon Snow, in order to get Lord Janos to refuse and so give him an excuse to execute this jumped up, upstart.

Mad Monkey retorted to my claims that Stannis only accused Janos of corruption because of his birth, and my cited examples of Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn and Jacelyn Bywater as evidence, with the following;

Stannis does level accusationS at Robert Baratheon. He was seething with anger at Robert's refusal to put an end to Janos's corruption.

And of course he doesn't levy that accusation at Bywater; Stannis has never worked with Bywater and has no reason to doubt his integrity. In fact, most people seem to think that Bywater is brave and honorable. Also note that Bywater's own backstory is not that different from Janos's and Davos's; Bywater was, according to the Wiki, a poor man from a lesser branch of a minor house, who couldn't even afford knighthood. He rose as high as he did for his hard work fighting in the Greyjoy Rebellion, receiving a knighthood at the hands of Robert after he lost his hand fighting for his country. He's hardly a pampered noble.

As for Jon, Stannis was working with Arryn to expose Janos's corruption.

That is a good point on the first, Stannis is indeed angry, angry at Roberts refusal to cast Janos down simply because of his birth. We can only assume that Robert saw straight through Stannis' intentions. Lord Janos has never been anything but loyal to the crown, this was re-enforced when he betrayed Eddard Stark to stick with the boy he believed to be the fruit of Robert Baratheon's loins, and the rightful King of Westeros.

And of course he would be working with Lord Jon Arryn to try to bring Janos down, kind of convenient, don't you think? They say Jon Arryns breath smelled of cheese, probably had something to do with the lies he tells festering on his tongue.

Sevumar levelled the following;

I'm not sure that Janos was necessarily all that lowborn. He has a family name that is recognized and used by members of court and elevated to the level of nobility. This is rare among commoners, and those who have family names are usually foreigners, the descendants of named bastards, or people with enough wealth and influence to pull it off.

So while Slynt certainly isn't the nobility's usual "type of people," there is some reason to think he's not the same as any random person plucked out of Flea Bottom. The only real thing we know about his background is that he's the son of a butcher.

Wealth and influence to pull off a surname, you say? Yet our Janos is a butchers son, so we can only assume our Janos comes from a hard working line of Slynt's, who garnered the wealth and influence necessary to gain a surname. Which has shown through him, due to his rise in station, Janos Slynt is hard working and bold, you have to be bold, to rise like Janos Slynt.

[Iona]

Oh, darling, you're trying so hard but can't you see that the ruling class will try to keep the lowborn scum down and will lock this thread too... ;)

[Roddy the Ruin]

It's hard to rise up in the social hierarchy when the way you rise up is by being a treacherous fucking snake without a single honorable and trustworthy bone in his body.

[Undead Ned With No Head]

Finally Janos the Manos is gettin some respect.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Oh, darling, you're trying so hard but can't you see that the ruling class will try to keep the lowborn scum down and will lock this thread too... ;)

We must make our voices heard in every window of opportunity.

It's hard to rise up in the social hierarchy when the way you rise up is by being a treacherous fucking snake without a single honorable and trustworthy bone in his body.

Who did Janos betray? He stayed loyal to who he believed to be the rightful King. He's done some bad things at the command of royalty, but so has the Hound. Most people seem to love that guy.

Finally Janos the Manos is gettin some respect.

The Gold Cloaks wheeled and charged again, the name they cried was "Janos! Janos! JANOS!" *paraphrasing the defence of Kings Landing with Janos leading the Gold Cloaks*

[ladytiger]

Jon chopping off Janos' head and Stannis giving him "the nod" to do so is one of my favorite moments in the series.

[Roddy the Ruin]

Jon chopping off Janos' head and Stannis giving him "the nod" to do so is one of my favorite moments in the series.

:agree:

[Bronn Urgandy]

Jon chopping off Janos' head and Stannis giving him "the nod" to do so is one of my favorite moments in the series.

:agree:

:frown5:

[Dany Girl]

Tyrion did not breach guest rights arresting Janos, Janos was not a guest. He's an employee. Ned could have had Jory arrested within WF if necessary. Stannis did have Davos arrested in DS when Davos freed Edric Storm. Arresting someone is not a breach of guest rights, hurting or killing them is. You don't get a free pass to not be arrested. And again, Janos lived in the castle, therefore he's not a guest.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Oh, darling, you're trying so hard but can't you see that the ruling class will try to keep the lowborn scum down and will lock this thread too... ;)

LOL

As far as Janos Slynt and him being the victim of elitism, I'm not so sure. While elitism may have figured into some of the problems Janos Slynt encountered with the nobility.........I don't think it trumps the fact that Janos was a major asswipe. I do think that, not his station of birth, is what caused alot of the problems.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Jon chopping off Janos' head and Stannis giving him "the nod" to do so is one of my favorite moments in the series.

I agree. That is moment worthy of a dance of joy, I mean.......justice, LOL

[LordStoneheart]

I'm trying to take this topic seriously but I can't...

[White Ravens]

Even your beloved Stannis thought that King Robert should have executed Slynt for corruption and taking bribes. Doesn't that leave you conflicted?

[White Ravens]

I'm trying to take this topic seriously but I can't...

It is a brilliantly presented bit of hogwash.

[Lion of the West]

For me the reason as to be critical of Janos Slynt is primarily that he required gold to stand for Joffrey. If he had done so without monetary rewards I would probably not have thought so low about him as there are plenty of people doing dishonorable things for causes they support. But most of them do so out of loyalty or conviction and not for coin.

[Sordelor]

The only reason Janos betrayed Ned was because LF payed him t do that.... it was not out of loyalte to the Iron Throne.

[Kasporio]

" O please m'lord Tywin save me from the wretched black bastard of the wall i was trying to frame and kill..."

Another fool who never understood the lannisters arent omnipotent.

Jan is no victim of the rich and powerful, he's a piece of trash who believes he can be something.

The only thing he did to deserve lordship over harrenhal was to have a innocent idealistic fool executed and have a baby killed.

Well, Harrenhal was next to nothing, a ruin in a war torn land, but the symbol was strong.

The execution scene was great. Well, i expected more anger and petty desire of revenge from Jon. Quite disapointing. He should have him burnt. With Alliser on the same stake.

Pretending Janos was crooked because he had no choice to please Joffrey ?

No. He choose to be. Robert let him be. LF make money by letting him be. Jacelyn Bywater was clear about it.

2/3 of the goldcloak enlisted by Janos was unworthy.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Edd, fetch me a block.

[Steve Stark]

Yeah, I just re-read all of this, and every time Slynt speaks he comes off as a snarky bastard with an arrogant and negative attitude to me.

I too, cheered for joy when Jon continued Ned's tradition of putting an end to bullshit with his own sword.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Tyrion did not breach guest rights arresting Janos, Janos was not a guest. He's an employee. Ned could have had Jory arrested within WF if necessary. Stannis did have Davos arrested in DS when Davos freed Edric Storm. Arresting someone is not a breach of guest rights, hurting or killing them is. You don't get a free pass to not be arrested. And again, Janos lived in the castle, therefore he's not a guest.

Did Lord Janos eat of Tyrions bread and salt? If so, then in the Hands own solar, Lord Janos must be a guest. Tyrion had him captured by force, and we've still to establish if Janos had commited a crime by law, since sadly if royalty order its all legal. In fact Tyrion even tells Littlefinger that he sends Janos to the Wall because he doesnt need him.

Small wonder Tywin was a-okay with Red Wedding, Tyrion had already butchered guest right and set a disgusting precedent

Even your beloved Stannis thought that King Robert should have executed Slynt for corruption and taking bribes. Doesn't that leave you conflicted?

Stannis isnt infallible.

For me the reason as to be critical of Janos Slynt is primarily that he required gold to stand for Joffrey. If he had done so without monetary rewards I would probably not have thought so low about him as there are plenty of people doing dishonorable things for causes they support. But most of them do so out of loyalty or conviction and not for coin.

How do we know this? Janos Slynt maintains that it was honour that made him side with Joffrey, am I to doubt him because he has jowly chops and frog features?

The only reason Janos betrayed Ned was because LF payed him t do that.... it was not out of loyalte to the Iron Throne.

As I said above.

" O please m'lord Tywin save me from the wretched black bastard of the wall i was trying to frame and kill..."

Another fool who never understood the lannisters arent omnipotent.

Jan is no victim of the rich and powerful, he's a piece of trash who believes he can be something.

The only thing he did to deserve lordship over harrenhal was to have a innocent idealistic fool executed and have a baby killed.

Well, Harrenhal was next to nothing, a ruin in a war torn land, but the symbol was strong.

The execution scene was great. Well, i expected more anger and petty desire of revenge from Jon. Quite disapointing. He should have him burnt. With Alliser on the same stake.

Pretending Janos was crooked because he had no choice to please Joffrey ?

No. He choose to be. Robert let him be. LF make money by letting him be. Jacelyn Bywater was clear about it.

2/3 of the goldcloak enlisted by Janos was unworthy.

Are you implying Slynt is trash because he is common born? *gasp* He merely sided with whom he believed to be the rightful King.

I never even thought about revenge as a motive for Jon Snow.. Thats never good.

Yeah, I just re-read all of this, and every time Slynt speaks he comes off as a snarky bastard with an arrogant and negative attitude to me.

I too, cheered for joy when Jon continued Ned's tradition of putting an end to bullshit with his own sword.

As does our favourite little imp, much of the time.