A Song of Ice and Fire and feminism.

[Michael Herman]

People typically hate others who demonstrate qualities that they dislike in themselves. The opposite is also true, people typically like others that demonstrate qualities that they perceive they have and are proud of, or qualities that they hope to achieve. I can honestly say that I dislike the Sansa character because she behaves in despicable ways that I too was guilty of in my youth. Self preservation is a common motivator for both Sansa and Cersei. Sansa could very well turn out in similar ways as Cersei if Littlefinger ends up with much influence.

Cersei's assessment of Margeary, Taena and Shae as "scheming whores" is blatant jealousy. In in some respects, you could even see that as respect.

It has been a long while since my last re-read, but I didn't interpret any of Brienne's feelings as romantic. "Respect", yes.

If I assume Jaime is one, who was the other? If Brienne isn't a lesbian, she's asexual. I could have a very bad memory too. Please point me towards any passages where you feel Brienne is having romantic feelings for a man.

True. People do view others through their very own flaws.

It's implied, particularly in Catelyn PoV, and once in her on PoV (I think) that she developed feeling's for Renly when he actually treated her with respect, in fact I think it is more than implied on several occassions, the Jaime/Brienne thing is purely in the minds of fans i think.

Hard for us to speculate on the sexuality of a character who has never actually explored it for themselves.

[Melifeather]

Without looking or quoting official definitions of feminism, how do you define it? To me, to be a feminist is to challenge societal norms and to promote the abilities of all women without changing our sex. We don't have to be like men to have the right to be treated equally. A feminist embraces her femaleness and uses her unique strengths in a way that shows leadership and lifts all women. It's also important to avoid attacking each other using the same words that men use to try to denigrate women. "Throw like a girl", or "she's a slut...whore"...I hate these words!

[Melifeather]

It's implied, particularly in Catelyn PoV, and once in her on PoV (I think) that she developed feeling's for Renly when he actually treated her with respect, in fact I think it is more than implied on several occassions, the Jaime/Brienne thing is purely in the minds of fans i think.

Hard for us to speculate on the sexuality of a character who has never actually explored it for themselves.

Exactly. Have we even read Brienne having sexual thoughts? She admired Renly, but did she fantasize about him kissing or touching her? If she did, I have inconveniently forgotten.

[Kasporio]

So Cersei isnt a feminist. She qualified every woman except maybe her mother as "slut, whore"

And she WANTS to be a man, alway complaining "why am i not like Jaime"

She would undergo some operation in the real world.

[Er Rn]

People typically hate others who demonstrate qualities that they dislike in themselves. The opposite is also true, people typically like others that demonstrate qualities that they perceive they have and are proud of, or qualities that they hope to achieve. I can honestly say that I dislike the Sansa character because she behaves in despicable ways that I too was guilty of in my youth. Self preservation is a common motivator for both Sansa and Cersei. Sansa could very well turn out in similar ways as Cersei if Littlefinger ends up with much influence.

I'm not arguing against any of this, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. My point was that Cersei is not a feminist, and she does not see women as equal to men. She feels she should be elevated above other women because they are stupid/weak/schemers/whatever. Sure, much of that stems from her own insecurities, particularly her feelings to Marg, and she's resentful of the society she grew up in. But that doesn't change the fact that she hates other women and thinks they're beneath her.

[Melifeather]

Does anyone think that using your "feminine wiles" disqualifies you from being a feminist? If it does, and I think it does somewhat, then it should disqualify the sand snakes, Arianne and Melisandre.

[Winter's Knight]

On Brienne:

Lord Renly was ahead of her, her sweet smiling king. He was leading her horse through the trees. Brienne called out to tell him how much she loved him, but when he turned to scowl at her, she saw that he was not Renly after all. Renly never scowled. He always had a smile for me, she thought . . .

..

“That is a lie.” Renly Baratheon had been more than a king to her. She had loved him since first he came to Tarth on his leisurely lord’s progress, to mark his coming of age.

...

And Renly Baratheon had shown her every courtesy, as if she were a proper maid, and pretty. He even danced with her, and in his arms she’d felt graceful, and her feet had floated across the floor. Later others begged a dance of her, because of his example. From that day forth, she wanted only to be close to Lord Renly, to serve him and protect him. But in the end she failed him.

...

Only a cramped small tub like this one. At Harrenhal the tubs had been huge, and made of stone. The bathhouse had been thick with the steam rising off the water, and Jaime had come walking through that mist naked as his name day, looking half a corpse and half a god. He climbed into the tub with me, she remembered, blushing. She seized a chunk of hard lye soap and scrubbed under her arms, trying to call up Renly’s face again.

..

That night she dreamed herself in Renly’s tent again. All the candles were guttering out, and the cold was thick around her. Something was moving through green darkness, something foul and horrible was hurtling toward her king. She wanted to protect him, but her limbs felt stiff and frozen, and it took more strength than she had just to lift her hand. And when the shadow sword sliced through the green steel gorget and the blood began to flow, she saw that the dying king was not Renly after all but Jaime Lannister, and she had failed him.

She loved Renly and as Feast goes on, we see her atrraction to him being replaced by Jaime.

[Melifeather]

I'm not arguing against any of this, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. My point was that Cersei is not a feminist, and she does not see women as equal to men. She feels she should be elevated above other women because they are stupid/weak/schemers/whatever. Sure, much of that stems from her own insecurities, particularly her feelings to Marg, and she's resentful of the society she grew up in. But that doesn't change the fact that she hates other women and thinks they're beneath her.

I apologize for not being more clear. I was trying to illustrate that Cersei's superior attitude didn't disqualify her from being a feminist. It just makes her an egotist. She is isolated due to her position, but I think she does admire other women, but it comes across as jealousy. She's fearful of other powerful women.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

A feminist embraces her femaleness and uses her unique strengths in a way that shows leadership and lifts all women.

That sounds an awful lot like Sansa. Well, until the "lifts all women" part. She has a decidedly static view of women but that might be changing now that she's been forced to "be" a different type of woman. I think that Winter's Knight is right, there are no feminists in this story according to this definition. Cersei has one view of women, Sansa, another, and Arya, yet another. And that hardly means the rest of the women in the series don't have their own unique views.

I do think the suggestion of Cersei vis-à-vis another character is a very interesting idea. Perhaps Cat or Arianne. Or even Margaery. The comparison and contrasting would be very interesting and offer lots of points for discussion. Power, motherhood, sexism, sexuality, beauty, intelligence, etc.

[Melifeather]

On Brienne:

She loved Renly and as Feast goes on, we see her atrraction to him being replaced by Jaime.

Does love for another person only encompass romantic love?

She loved him, but was it sexual?

The "blush" hints at romantic love, but is it definitive? I'm still left wondering about her sexuality.

[Winter's Knight]

I think a treatise on motherhood would be an excellent idea actually.

[Melifeather]

That sounds an awful lot like Sansa. Well, until the "lifts all women" part. She has a decidedly static view of women but that might be changing now that she's been forced to "be" a different type of woman. I think that Winter's Knight is right, there are no feminists in this story according to this definition. Cersei has one view of women, Sansa, another, and Arya, yet another. And that hardly means the rest of the women in the series don't have their own unique views.

I do think the suggestion of Cersei vis-à-vis another character is a very interesting idea. Perhaps Cat or Arianne. Or even Margaery. The comparison and contrasting would be very interesting and offer lots of points for discussion. Power, motherhood, sexism, sexuality, beauty, intelligence, etc.

I just really hate the passiveness of Sansa. She reminds me too much of women who stay in abusive situations. Frustrating, to put it mildly.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If you have to focus on just one female character for this exercise, my pick is Asha Greyjoy. She inspires loyalty and displays fairly progressive leadership, came very close to becoming queen of a deeply misogynistic society, still embraces her heterosexuality and approaches her male partner as an equal, does her own fighting and dirty work and is able to retain her dignity in a very tough situation.

I do think Cersei is complex, but she is not by any means the best representation of feminism in the series.

[Winter's Knight]

Does love for another person only encompass romantic love?

She loved him, but was it sexual?

The "blush" hints at romantic love, but is it definitive? I'm still left wondering about her sexuality.

Whilst in her bath, she recalls the highly erotic scene with Jaime in HH, she remembers him emerging from the mists "half a corpse and half a god" and she then tries to replace the image with Renly's face.

She falls in love with Renly during a dance, her first dance where she felt graceful and womanly in fact-it all points to her attraction being sexual.

Listen, I have the most investment imagineable in Brienne liking girls-most folks here will tell you about my Briennsa-fixation-but even I can see Brienne does like guys.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Brienne, while not explicitly described as such, seems to be gay. She's unusually physically strong for a female and eschews anything she perceives to be feminine. I'm not saying she's not a feminist, but being a feminist shouldn't mean that you also have to be a lesbian.

Exactly. Have we even read Brienne having sexual thoughts? She admired Renly, but did she fantasize about him kissing or touching her? If she did, I have inconveniently forgotten.

Does love for another person only encompass romantic love?

She loved him, but was it sexual?

The "blush" hints at romantic love, but is it definitive? I'm still left wondering about her sexuality.

These posts sadden me greatly and show the fight for a woman's right to be a woman is still far from won.

Brienne most definitely fits your description. In fact, she does better than your description since she fights for all, not just women or men. She is carving out a place for herself, one step at a time, which most definitely challenges the patriarch's view of Westeros and women. She holds herself to a consistent standard and treats everyone fairly and equally. And because she doesn't meet your idea of what a woman should look like or act, she's gay and you require actual sexual proof that she isn't?

[Melifeather]

Whilst in her bath, she recalls the highly erotic scene with Jaime in HH, she remembers him emerging from the mists "half a corpse and half a god" and she then tries to replace the image with Renly's face.

She falls in love with Renly during a dance, her first dance where she felt graceful and womanly in fact-it all points to her attraction being sexual.

Listen, I have the most investment imagineable in Brienne liking girls-most folks here will tell you about my Briennsa-fixation-but even I can see Brienne does like guys.

Heterosexual beings can admire the physical beauty in their own sex. As a female, I can admire another female form. It doesn't make me homosexual. Brienne can admire Jaime's half-a-god body can't she, and still just be simply admiring? OK, your arguments are convincing, but I still "feel" that she leans towards lesbianism. :dunno:

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I just really hate the passiveness of Sansa. She reminds me too much of women who stay in abusive situations. Frustrating, to put it mildly.

So feminists must be aggressive?

Look, Sansa is hardly a favorite of mine but I think of very different things when I consider the word "feminist". It's far broader in scope, IMHO, than is being discussed at the moment.

[Melifeather]

These posts sadden me greatly and show the fight for a woman's right to be a woman is still far from won.

Brienne most definitely fits your description. In fact, she does better than your description since she fights for all, not just women or men. She is carving out a place for herself, one step at a time, which most definitely challenges the patriarch's view of Westeros and women. She holds herself to a consistent standard and treats everyone fairly and equally. And because she doesn't meet your idea of what a woman should look like or act, she's gay and you require actual sexual proof that she isn't?

Don't be sad. I strive to understand and be open.

Maybe I do have opinions on sexuality...and maybe sexuality isn't so black and white, but multi-layered.

[Melifeather]

So feminists must be aggressive?

Look, Sansa is hardly a favorite of mine but I think of very different things when I consider the word "feminist". It's far broader in scope, IMHO, than is being discussed at the moment.

In my opinion, yes.

Please share your definition of "feminist".

[Son of a Harpy]

If you have to focus on just one female character for this exercise, my pick is Asha Greyjoy. She inspires loyalty and displays fairly progressive leadership, came very close to becoming queen of a deeply misogynistic society, still embraces her heterosexuality and approaches her male partner as an equal, does her own fighting and dirty work and is able to retain her dignity in a very tough situation.

I do think Cersei is complex, but she is not by any means the best representation of feminism in the series.

I agree she may the most independent woman in Westeros, but I wonder how many of, and to what extent, those characteristics Asha displays are the effects from being raised like the son Balon didn't have, in a primarily misogynistic society, and what does that say about feminism in Westeros if it's essentially the products of behaving like a man?