A Song of Ice and Fire and feminism.

[Winter's Knight]

As a feminist myself, I should point out how essential it is that all women are treated equal to men: the passive ones as well as the aggressive, the femme and the butch, the gay and the bi and the queer and the cis and the trans.

It doesn't matter if you're a stay-at-home parent who loves pink and needlework or a queer biker into the leather scene or someone in between-you still are entitled to the same basic opportunities, rights and rspect that any other law abiding individual gets.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Don't be sad. I strive to understand and be open.

Maybe I do have opinions on sexuality...and maybe sexuality isn't so black and white, but multi-layered.

It sounds more like you have opinions on appearances and it's implications on sexuality.

In my opinion, yes.

Please share your definition of "feminist".

Someone who supports the rights and equality of women.

[Melifeather]

As a feminist myself, I should point out how essential it is that all women are treated equal to men: the passive ones as well as the aggressive, the femme and the butch, the gay and the bi and the queer and the cis and the trans.

It doesn't matter if you're a stay-at-home parent who loves pink and needlework or a queer biker into the leather scene or someone in between-you still are entitled to the same basic opportunities, rights and rspect that any other law abiding individual gets.

I like this, and you're right. Being a feminist would be someone that respects others choices. But to say you can refrain from judgement, is to be inhuman.

[Melifeather]

It sounds more like you have opinions on appearances and it's implications on sexuality.

Someone who supports the rights and equality of women.

I guess I do. I'm human and I have formulated my own ideas about how things come to be. Don't you?

[krtmd]

Heterosexual beings can admire the physical beauty in their own sex. As a female, I can admire another female form. It doesn't make me homosexual. Brienne can admire Jaime's half-a-god body can't she, and still just be simply admiring? OK, your arguments are convincing, but I still "feel" that she leans towards lesbianism. :dunno:

But why do you have those feelings? It seems to me you're making assumptions about Brienne based on how she's perceived by the other characters, rather than how she self-idenitifies.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I guess I do. I'm human and I have formulated my own ideas about how things come to be. Don't you?

Not in the sense of "women who strong and are not petite must be gay", no.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

I would make the point that if you are writing a topic on feminism in general, do not limit yourself to the female characters. You can use the role of the male characters in Westerosi society, the role and representation of females, even this debate on the subject to some degree - gender roles have defined in this thread alone characters who are seen as "feminist" because they act in a way that they are not "supposed" to. I think Cersei would be a good character to look at in terms of feminism purely because of the fact that her aim, and her attitude, is to rule, and to do that, she feels she must act "like a man."

I had a piece of coursework fairly similar to this when I did my A levels, though we were restricted to poetry. I ended up writing it on gender roles in Ode On Melancholy, and one of the best pieces of advice my teacher gave me was to not just look at where feminist views were expressed, but also where they aren't, especially if you're doing comparisons within the work itself.

[Melifeather]

Brienne, Asha, and Arya think they have to act like men in order to express their dislike of societal norms. They're feminists, but they, along with Cersei, seem unhappy that they were born women.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think an Asha (in a misogynist society) compared to Arianne (in an egalitarian society) would make a good essay.

With emphasis on Asha and how she is able to achieve similar ends as Arianne despite being in a different society.

[Welease Woger]

It seems like some people are assuming that the OP wants to write about a feminist character, hence Cersei obviously does not fit the role and the OP should write about Asha or Brienne.

But as far as I understood, the OP wants to write an analysis of a character from a feminist point of view, thus Cersei is as good a choice as any. She's not a role model for women, she is a deeply flawed human being, but her story deals with lots of troubles that afflict women in a patriarchal society.

[Winter's Knight]

Brienne, Asha, and Arya think they have to act like men in order to express their dislike of societal norms. They're feminists, but they, along with Cersei, seem unhappy that they were born women.

Actually, all three of them are perfectly happy being women. Arya corrects Syrio when he calls her a girl, Brienne falls in love with Renly when he makes her feel like a woman and Asha's only discontent with being a woman is society's treatment of her.

Brienne displays some gender discomfort: she feels that she is neither a man nor a woman and bemoans the fact that she is a "freak" but I'm not sure how much of that is society and her septa tearing her down and how much is actual genderqueerness.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

If you have to focus on just one female character for this exercise, my pick is Asha Greyjoy. She inspires loyalty and displays fairly progressive leadership, came very close to becoming queen of a deeply misogynistic society, still embraces her heterosexuality and approaches her male partner as an equal, does her own fighting and dirty work and is able to retain her dignity in a very tough situation.

I do think Cersei is complex, but she is not by any means the best representation of feminism in the series.

Same can be said of Dany ;)

[Florina Laufeyson]

There are no feminists in ASoIaF. There are characters with feminist leanings and characters whose stories explore feminist ideas and there are women who do not fit into Westerosi ideals for women and rebel.

I disagree. I feel that every main female character is an aspect of feminist dialogue, whether for good or ill. GRRM takes a lot of feminist issues and plays with them. Each of our leading ladies seems to have something feminist about them.

Brienne: The woman who is as strong as the men, but has to face the cripping insecurity of being not just a woman, but one not fair of face. She faces a lot of issues that deal with feminism.

Arya: Pretty obvious here. The one who balks gender roles and convention but explicitly points out that she is indeed, a girl. Her arc deals with identity very heavily.

Sansa: This one is all about feminine agency and in Sansa's case, the lack thereof. Sansa's arc discusses traditional gender roles and her responses to not having agency.

Dany: Shes all about reform. A woman in the position of power, but it isnt given to her. She must earn it. Her arc touches on the entitlement that comes with rule and it also discusses what happens when a woman is given absolute agency in a patriarchal world.

Cersei: Is similar to Dany but this one deals with the negative aspects of feminism. Becoming and reinforcing the patriarchy and the internalized misogyny that women often possess.

Asha: Her arc deals with respect for the female gender in a way. She earns the loyalty of her team of Ironborn for not placing absolutes on her gender and standing on equal ground as her male peers.

Catelyn: Shes all about the maternal aspects and how tradition melds with proactive ideas.

So really, the entire series is a hot bed of feminist ideas floating around. While the characters themselves arent "feminists", the concepts behind them definitely are.

[Winter's Knight]

I disagree. I feel that every main female character is an aspect of feminist dialogue, whether for good or ill. GRRM takes a lot of feminist issues and plays with them. Each of our leading ladies seems to have something feminist about them.

Brienne: The woman who is as strong as the men, but has to face the cripping insecurity of being not just a woman, but one not fair of face. She faces a lot of issues that deal with feminism.

Arya: Pretty obvious here. The one who balks gender roles and convention but explicitly points out that she is indeed, a girl. Her arc deals with identity very heavily.

Sansa: This one is all about feminine agency and in Sansa's case, the lack thereof. Sansa's arc discusses traditional gender roles and her responses to not having agency.

Dany: Shes all about reform. A woman in the position of power, but it isnt given to her. She must earn it. Her arc touches on the entitlement that comes with rule and it also discusses what happens when a woman is given absolute agency in a patriarchal world.

Cersei: Is similar to Dany but this one deals with the negative aspects of feminism. Becoming and reinforcing the patriarchy and the internalized misogyny that women often possess.

Asha: Her arc deals with respect for the female gender in a way. She earns the loyalty of her team of Ironborn for not placing absolutes on her gender and standing on equal ground as her male peers.

Catelyn: Shes all about the maternal aspects and how tradition melds with proactive ideas.

So really, the entire series is a hot bed of feminist ideas floating around. While the characters themselves arent "feminists", the concepts behind them definitely are.

So you're...agreeing with me.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

If I assume Jaime is one, who was the other? If Brienne isn't a lesbian, she's asexual. I could have a very bad memory too. Please point me towards any passages where you feel Brienne is having romantic feelings for a man.

RENLY

[krtmd]

Brienne, Asha, and Arya think they have to act like men in order to express their dislike of societal norms. They're feminists, but they, along with Cersei, seem unhappy that they were born women.

Actually, all three of them are perfectly happy being women. Arya corrects Syrio when he calls her a girl, Brienne falls in love with Renly when he makes her feel like a woman and Asha's only discontent with being a woman is society's treatment of her.

Brienne displays some gender discomfort: she feels that she is neither a man nor a woman and bemoans the fact that she is a "freak" but I'm not sure how much of that is society and her septa tearing her down and how much is actual genderqueerness.

IMO, it's mostly that Brienne has internalized what society and her septa have told her - that she's a "freak" because she doesn't meet the Westerosi standards of beauty and how a woman should behave. She identifies as a heterosexual woman in her POV chapters - wondering about what men want (Jaime in particular), thinking about her feelings for Renly and how she cried when he married Margaery. She also thinks about her "failings" in terms of doing what was expected of her - marrying and making babies.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I agree she may the most independent woman in Westeros, but I wonder how many of, and to what extent, those characteristics Asha displays are the effects from being raised like the son Balon didn't have, in a primarily misogynistic society, and what does that say about feminism in Westeros if it's essentially the products of behaving like a man?

Exactly.

[Florina Laufeyson]

So you're...agreeing with me.

Not quite, because i feel Brienne, Asha, and Arya are more feminist than others. They dont acknowledge this but we are supposed to. They do rebel. Brienne chooses to live more as a knight, Arya rebels the most out of these guys, and Asha speaks for herself. With the other characters, i agree with you. But in terms of rebelling, a few ladies do this.

Id also like to address Arianne whom i sadly forgotten in my post. Her arc deals with promiscuity and power, similar to Cersei. However Arianne is one who does not have the same scruples Cersei does.

Margaery is a figure who tends to use what little agency she has to benefit her family.

Hang on, where is this Brienne Is A Lesbian thing coming from?

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Hang on, where is this Brienne Is A Lesbian thing coming from?

I guess people think that because of her appearance

[Winter's Knight]

Not quite, because i feel Brienne, Asha, and Arya are more feminist than others. They dont acknowledge this but we are supposed to. They do rebel. Brienne chooses to live more as a knight, Arya rebels the most out of these guys, and Asha speaks for herself. With the other characters, i agree with you. But in terms of rebelling, a few ladies do this.

Id also like to address Arianne whom i sadly forgotten in my post. Her arc deals with promiscuity and power, similar to Cersei. However Arianne is one who does not have the same scruples Cersei does.

Margaery is a figure who tends to use what little agency she has to benefit her family.

Hang on, where is this Brienne Is A Lesbian thing coming from?

Being a feminist requires an acknowledgement that men and women deserve to be treated equally-correctly speaking Jon and Arianne come closest to being feminists.

The others, while their stories incorporate feminist ideals and illustrate how harmful the patriarchy is, are not feminists themselves.

It comes from Brienne being big, atheletic and a virgin. Or poor reading skills-take your pick.