A Song of Ice and Fire and feminism.

[Audrey Arryn]

Asha doesn't really speak feminist considering her father raised her like a son, it wasn't her choice.

My choices are Arya and Dany.

Dany especially in AGOT she completely changes the role of a Khaleesi.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

And forgive me if someone has brought her up,

Val and Dalla, as well as Ygritte, and actually all the wildlings women. Boom....there is your feminism!

[Bea_Stark]

So really, the entire series is a hot bed of feminist ideas floating around. While the characters themselves arent "feminists", the concepts behind them definitely are.

I agree. A character doesn't have to be feminist or anything like that to be analyzed from a feminist point of view. Cersei could be a nice character to analyze because IMO many of her actions throughout her life were determined by the fact that she was a woman. Why do you think she "wants to be man"? Probably because she wanted to have the right to learn how to fight, to travel the world, to be free (much like Arya). Now, if those rights had been given her maybe she'd never have wished to be a man.

There's an interesting book which has been recently published: "Winter is coming: symbols and hidden meanings in A Game of Thrones" (by Valerie Estelle Frankel) that offers an analysis of "women's roles in History and in Westeros". The author briefly comments, for example, that passage when Cersei complains to Tywin that Margaery has her claws on Joffrey. Tywin answers that that is good, because someone has to control him. That is, he would be king just in name. In order for the realm to profit from his rule, it'd be best if a strong woman controlled him "behind the cameras". The author compares this with actual History, since these situations have happened before when women, despite sometimes not being the heirs to the throne, had some sort of political power.

[Audrey Arryn]

And forgive me if someone has brought her up,

Val and Dalla, as well as Ygritte, and actually all the wildlings women. Boom....there is your feminism!

:agree:

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I agree. A character doesn't have to be feminist or anything like that to be analyzed from a feminist point of view. Cersei could be a nice character to analyze because IMO many of her actions throughout her life were determined by the fact that she was a woman. Why do you think she "wants to be man"? Probably because she wanted to have the right to learn how to fight, to travel the world, to be free (much like Arya). Now, if those rights had been given her maybe she'd never have wished to be a man.

There's an interesting book which has been recently published: "Winter is coming: symbols and hidden meanings in A Game of Thrones" (by Valerie Estelle Frankel) that offers an analysis of "women's roles in History and in Westeros". The author briefly comments, for example, that passage when Cersei complains to Tywin that Margaery has her claws on Joffrey. Tywin answers that that is good, because someone has to control him. That is, he would be king just in name. In order for the realm to profit from his rule, it'd be best if a strong woman controlled him "behind the cameras". The author compares this with actual History, since these situations have happened before when women, despite sometimes not being the heirs to the throne, had some sort of political power.

Oh good someone has read that! Did you like it? I just downloaded it because it was a dollar, but haven't finished Dangerous Women yet, so it's next.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Brienne, Asha, and Arya think they have to act like men in order to express their dislike of societal norms. They're feminists, but they, along with Cersei, seem unhappy that they were born women.

First, the text doesn't support Brienne, Asha or Arya acting like men to express their dislike of societal norms. Second, acting like a man doesn't fulfill your definition (or any other that I know about) of what it means to be a feminist so I'm unclear as to why you've said they are. Perhaps there is a different criteria?

I would argue that these ladies are aware of societal norms and have a struggle on their hands but that struggle comes from their desire to behave as they wish rather than behave how their society wishes. It would seem you have the cause and effect backwards although I say that grudgingly since I don't believe that these women are behaving like men. They are just being themselves and fulfilling their own desires and it is that, which makes them feminist, IMHO. That said, it is not society that is "making" them do anything. It is their actions that is "making" their society take notice and voice their opinion of said actions.

IMO, it's mostly that Brienne has internalized what society and her septa have told her - that she's a "freak" because she doesn't meet the Westerosi standards of beauty and how a woman should behave. She identifies as a heterosexual woman in her POV chapters - wondering about what men want (Jaime in particular), thinking about her feelings for Renly and how she cried when he married Margaery. She also thinks about her "failings" in terms of doing what was expected of her - marrying and making babies.

This! She feels she's failed society's expectations but still does not choose to conform. Rather, she chooses to follow her heart and be the only person she thinks she can be not the person society thinks she should be. That's the epitome of being a feminist, IMHO, supporting a woman's choice to be who she wants to be.

[All Men Must Rhyme]

Asha doesn't really speak feminist considering her father raised her like a son, it wasn't her choice.

My choices are Arya and Dany.

Dany especially in AGOT she completely changes the role of a Khaleesi.

The thing is, this is worth writing about in regards to feminism too. As soon as someone is "raised like a son" you're talking about changing gender roles, and comparing societies, and feminism within those societies, is worthwhile. The Dothraki and the Ironborn are very similar in that their leaders are chosen through physical prowess and power; effectively, they get the respect they earn, and their gender becomes irrelevant. Compare their methods of gaining power to Cersei's method of gaining power, ie using marriage, and physical charms, because her society has dictated that this is how a woman must gain power, and you have feminism as well. Simply looking at individual characters in terms of whether or not they fit the modern views of what a feminist is closes the door on much wider topics.

[Jasta11]

Cercei is... not a good example. She's all over the place because she's half insane. Furthermore, she's possibly the single most mysoginist character in the entire series, behind maybe Randyll Tarly and her own dad. If you want to find a similar character, Arianne is a much better example.

I also don't think there are feminist characters in ASoIaF, AKA women who want to rebel and change the patriarchy. You have women who reject, to a greater or lesser degree, the role imposed on them by society (you know the ones), which brings feminist themes into the story, but I can't point to one character and say ''yeah, feminism is a primary part of that person's agenda/identity/ideals''. Martin is too good a writer to directly transplant a modern-day feminist into that kind of story, that would be like introducing the Founding Fathers of America into Westeros.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Being a feminist requires an acknowledgement that men and women deserve to be treated equally-correctly speaking Jon and Arianne come closest to being feminists.

The others, while their stories incorporate feminist ideals and illustrate how harmful the patriarchy is, are not feminists themselves.

I would argue that Asha and Brienne believe men and women deserve to be treated equally. Or do you think they believe they are unique and therefore special cases?

[DominusNovus]

I haven't read most of the replies here in depth, but I just want to also agree that Cersei is not a feminist. If anything, she's a misogynist. There are probably two other females in the entire series she doesn't treat with utter disrespect based on their sex, her mother and her daughter.

I'm not expert on these matters, but it seems to me that Cersei isn't angry that women don't have more power and authority in their society, she's just mad at the world that she's not a man. Then you have Brienne, who's just so stubborn she's going to ignore what society thinks she should be. The Tyrell women, who embrace what their society says they should be and use it to their advantage. The wildling women, who are raised in a very alien society from our point of view; its almost impossible for us to comprehend their ideas on sexual roles (a society that accepts a relatively libertine attitude, but with a level of violence implicitly accepted...). Arya and Sansa are relatively young, and started from different attitudes to begin with, but it might be interesting to compare their respective paths. Moreso if Sansa turns out to actually exert some control her own destiny (would it be interesting if Arya, as a protege of the FMs, has no control over what she does, while Sansa is able to learn to manipulate those around her to be her own master?).

[Florina Laufeyson]

I would argue that Asha and Brienne believe men and women deserve to be treated equally. Or do you think they believe they are unique and therefore special cases?

Yeah i agree with that. Also Arianne who wishes to be seen as equal to her brother/father. What differs from Cersei in Arianne's case, is that she does not wish to become the patriarchy. She tends to treat male and females with a sense of equality. Her attempt to put Myrcella in a place of importance (by crowing) is an example. Asha enters the Kingsmoot with the held belief that she is equal to her male counterparts. The way Asha interacts with the She-Bear is interesting as well.

I'm not expert on these matters, but it seems to me that Cersei isn't angry that women don't have more power and authority in their society, she's just mad at the world that she's not a man.

Cersei is a case of wanting her patriarchy cake and eating it too. She is bitter about not having a penis, but shes all about elevating herself. Its all about Cersei in her mind. "I want equality and to be treated as a man. But only for me. The other women can stow it cuz they are filthy whores or just plain stupid." Its her internalized misogyny.

[The Crow's Third Eye]

Not quite, because i feel Brienne, Asha, and Arya are more feminist than others. They dont acknowledge this but we are supposed to. They do rebel. Brienne chooses to live more as a knight, Arya rebels the most out of these guys, and Asha speaks for herself. With the other characters, i agree with you. But in terms of rebelling, a few ladies do this.

Id also like to address Arianne whom i sadly forgotten in my post. Her arc deals with promiscuity and power, similar to Cersei. However Arianne is one who does not have the same scruples Cersei does.

Margaery is a figure who tends to use what little agency she has to benefit her family.

Hang on, where is this Brienne Is A Lesbian thing coming from?

Cersei has scruples? I always thought she was pretty hesrtless and ruthless and didnt care about the extra consequences of her action?

Also, Margery you may be right with, but I see her more as a piece of her grandmother Olenna, and her actions are pretty heavily influenced by her.

Another interesting female character is actually Joanna Lannister, although she couldnt be the subject of an essay - we have too little information on her. But we do know that she ruled Tywin, who was notoriously ruthless and feared. That says somethig I think.

ETA: never thought about the Wildlings vefore now actually. Looking at spearwives such as Ygritte, its clear women have some sort of empowerment beyond the Wall. And the washerwomens whole: we are jjust women to be fucked speech seens pretty mocking and derogatory, as if they are scathing of Southern attitudes and traditions

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

All Men Must Rhyme, on 01 Jan 2014 - 3:45 PM, said:

I would make the point that if you are writing a topic on feminism in general, do not limit yourself to the female characters. You can use the role of the male characters in Westerosi society, the role and representation of females, even this debate on the subject to some degree - gender roles have defined in this thread alone characters who are seen as "feminist" because they act in a way that they are not "supposed" to. I think Cersei would be a good character to look at in terms of feminism purely because of the fact that her aim, and her attitude, is to rule, and to do that, she feels she must act "like a man."

I had a piece of coursework fairly similar to this when I did my A levels, though we were restricted to poetry. I ended up writing it on gender roles in Ode On Melancholy, and one of the best pieces of advice my teacher gave me was to not just look at where feminist views were expressed, but also where they aren't, especially if you're doing comparisons within the work itself.

That's a good point. I tend to think of Davos as one of the mother characters along with Catelyn, Dany and Cersei. I've thought of starting a thread about it but never got around to it.

[Bea_Stark]

Oh good someone has read that! Did you like it? I just downloaded it because it was a dollar, but haven't finished Dangerous Women yet, so it's next.

Yes, I liked it! It's quite short though. Her analyses are really "to the point" and I wish I could read more about these topics, but it's a nice work. The part I really enjoyed is when she talks about the associations between Westeros' peoples (like the Andals, etc) and our History.

I've just read The Princes and the Queen. Do you recommend the other Dangerous Woman short stories?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

That's a good point. I tend to think of Davos as one of the mother characters along with Catelyn, Dany and Cersei. I've thought of starting a thread about it but never got around to it.

This is an interesting idea. Very interesting.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Yes, I liked it! It's quite short though. Her analyses are really "to the point" and I wish I could read more about these topics, but it's a nice work. The part I really enjoyed is when she talks about the associations between Westeros' peoples (like the Andals, etc) and our History.

I've just read The Princes and the Queen. Do you recommend the other Dangerous Woman short stories?

Yes, they are quite enjoyable reads.

On a different note, a trend on this thread is that Cersei is insane. She is not. Alcoholic, cruel, selfish, etc.....but not nuts.

[Roddy the Ruin]

I know this May seem sexist and seem slightly misogynistic but whenever I hear the word "feminist" I instantly think of that 1000 Ways to Die episode with the feminist chick who electrocuted herself while pleasuring herself with a mini taser (she thought it was a vibrator) but at the beginning of that story she was at a feminist rally shouting "TWIST AND PULL!" I know she was just an extreme feminist and that most feminists are kind reasonable people but I just can't help but think of that

[Bea_Stark]

It's difficult for me to simply classify Cersei as insane or sane. I think she is kind of paranoid and a bit delusional sometimes, mostly the last books. After the walk of shame I'm not sure if she changed at all of if she was just faking to convince others that she is now a different woman. I tend to believe in the second possibility. If this is something a "crazy woman" would do I don't know. Maybe she's just trying to continue manipulating people to have things her way.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I'll try and actually answer the OP now.

It appears that some people are missing the point of literary analysis and are jumping all over you with "No don't do Cersei. She's bad/crazy/misogynist." A literary analysis is not a screed about why a character is a good or bad person and Cersei does not to be a feminist in order to write a feminist analysis of the character.

The two things I would write about:

1.) Her relationship with Tywin. Cersei is clearly very angry at Tywin for not treating her as an equal to Jaime. She recalls that she and Jaime used to dress alike and people would get them mixed up. Then, when puberty hit they weren't treated as twins anymore, they were treated completely differently based on their sex. I think Tywin's dismissal of Cersei as somebody who wanted to learn to play the game of thrones really shaped her character and screwed her up. She isn't simply reacting to patriarchy, she is reacting to the patriarch of her own family.

2.) Her internalized misogyny. I'm seeing a lot of people in this thread saying it's a bad idea to write about her because of this. I disagree. It is actually quite common for members of an outgroup (in this case, women) to identify with the ingroup (men) and distance themselves from the outgroup to obtain a sort of provisional ingroup status. This is what Cersei does I think. If she were alive in our society she might be one of those women that only has guy friends because women "cause too much drama" or are "bitchy" and "crazy."

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Lady Beyond the Wall, on 01 Jan 2014 - 5:29 PM, said:

On a different note, a trend on this thread is that Cersei is insane. She is not. Alcoholic, cruel, selfish, etc.....but not nuts.

:agree: Interesting that so many people in a thread about feminism are simplifying Cersei and calling her crazy when that is a word (along with hysterical) that people frequently use to dismiss women's opinions.