Lady Beyond the Wall Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 :agree: Interesting that so many people in a thread about feminism are simplifying Cersei and calling her crazy when that is a word (along with hysterical) that people frequently use to dismiss women's opinions.Yes! Let's all think with our brains! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Interesting to see how much people ready to justified and excuse Cersei's horrible reign by the overwhelming sexism of the westerosi society.Well, many are prone to justify Ramsay's madness too (he's father was mean sooooo sad...)There's a quote from the movie Hannibal, dont remember the exact words, but he describes modern era as barbaric, not savage nor wise, and that a descent society would either uses psychos like him, or get rid of them. But unlike our world, westeros seems to aplly this principle. Tywin relied on Gregor unmatched ferocity. Roose kept Ramsay as an heir because, while his son would be a ruler as inept as Cersei, he horrifies boltons ennemies.Cersei isnt underrated because she's a woman or totally screwed mentally, but because she's useless, totally unable to act in a way beneficial to the kingdom, the lannisters ... or even herself.In fact she's largely overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 :agree: Interesting that so many people in a thread about feminism are simplifying Cersei and calling her crazy when that is a word (along with hysterical) that people frequently use to dismiss women's opinions. It has nothing to do with her being a women. Seriously now. It has everything to do with her caring about absolutely nothing but herself, which I consider sociopathy which makes her much closer to ''crazy'' status than most. And I don't consider that simplifying in the least, as almost every action she takes are both impulsive and utterly selfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 :agree: Interesting that so many people in a thread about feminism are simplifying Cersei and calling her crazy when that is a word (along with hysterical) that people frequently use to dismiss women's opinions.We call her crazy because surprise surprise SHE'S FUCKIN CRAZY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtmd Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Interesting to see how much people ready to justified and excuse Cersei's horrible reign by the overwhelming sexism of the westerosi society. I don't see anyone justifying or excusing Cersei's behavior in this thread. It is absolutely true that her character is heavily influenced by gender inequality. All the female characters in ASoIaF are, to some degree or another. It's not an excuse for the deplorable things she does. Just a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 We call her crazy because surprise surprise SHE'S FUCKIN CRAZY! Exactly she is crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Genna Lannister, the sand snakes, Margaery, Arianne are strong women resentful of the restrictions the society put on women but they all despise Cersei. Its the proof Cersei's behaviour has nothing to do with inequality.And thanks to Cersei, no woman would be allowed to rule even as queen regent. Cersei is a lannister, she enjoyed more luck and freedom than... well almost every woman in the 7k.She may be psychotic as well, but many sociopath try to do something of their life.Cersei has no redeeming quality. She failed both as a mother and a regent and ruined the 7k.And like every weak person, she never aknowledge her flaws, never admits her mistakes, and every time she fails at something... well everytime... its necessarily a plot against her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Genna Lannister, the sand snakes, Margaery, Arianne are strong women resentful of the restrictions the society put on women but they all despise Cersei. Its the proof Cersei's behaviour has nothing to do with inequality. And thanks to Cersei, no woman would be allowed to rule even as queen regent. Cersei is a lannister, she enjoyed more luck and freedom than... well almost every woman in the 7k. She may be psychotic as well, but many sociopath try to do something of their life. Cersei has no redeeming quality. She failed both as a mother and a regent and ruined the 7k. And like every weak person, she never aknowledge her flaws, never admits her mistakes, and every time she fails at something... well everytime... its necessarily a plot against her. This. Due to her actions many highborn wouldn't accept a female regent. She has royally screwed up everything and in a place where patriarchy is dominant, one women's mistakes will have repercussions on other strong women's lives for generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beyond the Wall Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 If we define crazy as some mentally deranged, I think the only really crazy character in ASOIAF is Ramsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 krtmd, on 01 Jan 2014 - 6:15 PM, said: I don't see anyone justifying or excusing Cersei's behavior in this thread. It is absolutely true that her character is heavily influenced by gender inequality. All the female characters in ASoIaF are, to some degree or another. It's not an excuse for the deplorable things she does. Just a fact. This. There are reasons for the way people are. It's a complex mix of nature and nurture. Seeking an explanation for Cersei's behavior is not the same as making an excuse. Just saying "she's crazy and evil!" is really shallow and simplistic. ASOIAF isn't a shallow and simple story and the characters deserve better analysis than that. Interesting to see how much people ready to justified and excuse Cersei's horrible reign by the overwhelming sexism of the westerosi society. Well, many are prone to justify Ramsay's madness too (he's father was mean sooooo sad...) There's a quote from the movie Hannibal, dont remember the exact words, but he describes modern era as barbaric, not savage nor wise, and that a descent society would either uses psychos like him, or get rid of them. But unlike our world, westeros seems to aplly this principle. Tywin relied on Gregor unmatched ferocity. Roose kept Ramsay as an heir because, while his son would be a ruler as inept as Cersei, he horrifies boltons ennemies. Cersei isnt underrated because she's a woman or totally screwed mentally, but because she's useless, totally unable to act in a way beneficial to the kingdom, the lannisters ... or even herself. In fact she's largely overrated. I didn't say Cersei was underrated or competent. I said she isn't crazy. You aren't even on topic for this thread which is about literary analysis and not opinions on how good or bad a character is. It's a topic for a different thread, but there is plenty to be analyzed in Ramsay's character. Again, a complicated mix of nature and nurture (his neglect by Roose, the fact that he's a product of rape, his relationship with Reek), you aren't giving GRRM much credit here. It has nothing to do with her being a women. Seriously now. It has everything to do with her caring about absolutely nothing but herself, which I consider sociopathy which makes her much closer to ''crazy'' status than most. And I don't consider that simplifying in the least, as almost every action she takes are both impulsive and utterly selfish. I doubt anybody is purposely setting out to call Cersei crazy simply because he's a woman. I'm not calling anybody a misogynist here and I'm sorry if that's how it sounded. However, we live in a culture that still has issues with sexism. We all internalize sexism (and for that matter racism, homophobia and xenophobia) no matter how enlightened and intelligent we are. It is pretty well know that crazy and hysterical are insults frequently lobbed at women to shut them up and marginalize them. That is a fact. Do a few minutes of googling if you don't believe me. Also, Cersei is not the only female character frequently called crazy. Dany is called crazy all the time with little evidence of actual mental illness. I've seen both Arya and Sansa called psychopaths. Cersei is paranoid but not to the extent that she would be diagnosed as schizophrenic. You could argue that Arya has PTSD, and Cersei is a psychopath. To me, "crazy" means psychotic and unable to distinguish reality from fantasy and unable to distinguish right from wrong or understand societal norms. Anyway, calling a character crazy is not a substitute for thoughtful analysis. It's lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Ok Gregor is perfectly sane of mind so. Vargo's knack for dismemberment is normal. Aerys delusion, paranoia, and pyromania is just a cultural... something If we define crazy as some mentally deranged, I think the only really crazy character in ASOIAF is Ramsay.Ok Gregor is perfectly sane of mind so. Vargo's knack for dismemberment is normal. Aerys delusion, paranoia, and pyromania is just a cultural... something.Cersei's delusion of grandeur paranoia, lack of empathy ... should i continue ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Kasporio, on 01 Jan 2014 - 6:49 PM, said: Ok Gregor is perfectly sane of mind so. Vargo's knack for dismemberment is normal. Aerys delusion, paranoia, and pyromania is just a cultural... something Ok Gregor is perfectly sane of mind so. Vargo's knack for dismemberment is normal. Aerys delusion, paranoia, and pyromania is just a cultural... something. Cersei's delusion of grandeur paranoia, lack of empathy ... should i continue ? No you shouldn't. The OP was asking for ideas about what to write about for a feminist literary analysis. You have contributed nothing to the conversation. If you want to write a Cersei hate thread feel free to do so. Hate threads get locked though. You will have to disguise it as something else. Now I am done talking to you because I don't want to derail the thread anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Ok Gregor is perfectly sane of mind so. Vargo's knack for dismemberment is normal. Aerys delusion, paranoia, and pyromania is just a cultural... something Ok Gregor is perfectly sane of mind so. Vargo's knack for dismemberment is normal. Aerys delusion, paranoia, and pyromania is just a cultural... something. Cersei's delusion of grandeur paranoia, lack of empathy ... should i continue ? My god, it's like you didn't even read hir post. "Crazy" is a cop-out adjective, it strips a character of their agency and reduces their motivations to being unimportant and is a highly ablist term that further marginalises people with mental disorders. Cersei is not "crazy", she is arrogant, has limited empathy, highly priveliged and has a healthy paranoia brought on by circumstances. She is also cunning, charismatic, brave, selfish and protective of her children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 My god, it's like you didn't even read hir post. "Crazy" is a cop-out adjective, it strips a character of their agency and reduces their motivations to being unimportant and is a highly ablist term that further marginalises people with mental disorders. Cersei is not "crazy", she is arrogant, has limited empathy, highly priveliged and has a healthy paranoia brought on by circumstances. She is also cunning, charismatic, brave, selfish and protective of her children. she is a moron, as Tywin said she isn't as smart as she thinks she is. Her plan to assassinate Robert and save her and her children's lives was completely idiotic. It only worked through sheer luck and because of GRRM. She is so paranoid she thinks Tyrion is behind every little thing that happens. She also is a horrible mother. A good mother is warm and nurturing as well as protective. Cersei Only views her children as extensions of herself and her power. If she truly loved them then she wouldn't be such a royal c word to Tommen. If she isn't completely insane then I don't think anyone aside from Ramsay is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 she is a moron, as Tywin said she isn't as smart as she thinks she is. Her plan to assassinate Robert and save her and her children's lives was completely idiotic. It only worked through sheer luck and because of GRRM. She is so paranoid she thinks Tyrion is behind every little thing that happens. She also is a horrible mother. A good mother is warm and nurturing as well as protective. Verse I only views her children as extensions of herself and her power. If she truly loved them then she wouldn't be such a royal c word to Tommen. If she isn't completely insane then I don't think anyone aside from Ramsay is. THIS. Some people just whitewash cersei's actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I tried to explained that from my pov Cersei could not be a fair subject for an essay about feminism as she would epithomize the perfect reason WHY women should not rule, that all. She should be compared to every strong female characters.I may be labelled as a Cersei hater. Well i'm not, she's amongst the most interesting character to read.But she cannot decently be described in any positive way. Brave, really? Healthy paranoia?. Damn, i maybe a Cersei hater... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 As far as she knows, Tyrion killed her son and her father and escaped using secret tunnels in the walls-of course she's scared he'll come back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasporio Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Euh... She framed Tyrion and Tywin was ok with that. But planning Trystane murder ? And framing Tyrion again for that ? Does it make sense really ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Hold up. I have a thread on Cersei's paranoia, we ought to shift this there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
para Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 You can write about Cersei being a feminist (character) or you can analyze how GRRM's writing is feminist using Cersei's characterization as an example.The former essay will be very short and get you'll failed. Because Cersei doesn't think women are equal to men. She thinks she is equal to men. That is self-interest and vanity, not feminism. If your teacher knows ASOIAF or just GOT, they'll pick up on that no matter how much you disguise it.The latter is insofar not a bad idea since Cersei is one of the few major female character whose moral trajectory is very much predictable (unlike the other major female characters who are not zombies.) That makes her static enough to get a good grasp on how GRRM intents her to be read. But that's the part where it gets problematic. Cersei is written as a villain. If you want to come to conclusion that GRRM's writing is feminist (and you sound like that) you'll need to look at more than the fact that she is an unusually complex character for genre fiction and GRRM's work repeatedly passes the Bechdel Test. You'll need to analyze what tools GRRM employs to portray her as unsympathetic and villainous - and if any of them are anti-feminist stereotypes, tropes, or language. (i.e. slut-shaming).The thing is... You might find that GRRM does employ those things to make her unsympathetic. If that was the result of your analysis, you will not come to the conclusion you appear to want. Cersei is an unsafe character in that regard. If you safely want to come to the conclusion that GRRM's writing is feminist, you should probably pick Catelyn as focal character. She is equally static but is portrayed as flawed rather than full-on cartoon villain and thus relies less on tropes and stereotypes and thus gives less opportunity for those tropes to be anti-feminist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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