Welease Woger Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Brienne is certainly an outcast in Westerosi society. She is a woman in a heavily patriachal society, even more than our own. Men and women have clearly different roles to play in the Seven Kingdoms, and albeit she have already tried to fit in the roles given to women, she failed. Maybe that's only because she is ugly and has always been looked down for this reason, maybe she realised early on that she would never be happy as a wife and mother, as it was expected from her and she discovered that doing "masculine" things was way more fun. Or maybe, that's because deeply inside she feels that she really is a man and she wants to do manly things because that's her way of crossing the bounds of gender. Do you think Brienne is transgender or is she a woman that challenges her roles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 :box: no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis Eats No Peaches Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I don't really know enough on the subject to comment, but I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtmd Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 No. She identifies as a heterosexual woman in her POV chapters. There's no ambiguity to her self-identified sexuality or gender role. She's identified by others as an outcast because she doesn't conform to the traditional female role in Westerosi society and she's ridiculed for her personal appearance. There's some definite internalization on her part of these labels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I highly doubt it, she greatly enjoys any acknowledgement of her femininity (Renly dancing with her, and the attention she was getting from the Knights of Summer), and seems uncomfortable whenever she is mistaken for a man. Her being androgynous in appearance doesn't automatically make her transgender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 i didn't see any indication that she identifies as a man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welease Woger Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 No. She identifies as a heterosexual woman in her POV chapters. There's no ambiguity to her self-identified sexuality or gender role. She's identified by others as an outcast because she doesn't conform to the traditional female role in Westerosi society and she's ridiculed for her personal appearance. There's some definite internalization on her part of these labels. Being attracted to man does not imply that she is not transgender, sexuality and gender are entirely different matters. I highly doubt it, she greatly enjoys any acknowledgement of her femininity (Renly dancing with her, and the attention she was getting from the Knights of Summer), and seems uncomfortable whenever she is mistaken for a man. Her being androgynous in appearance doesn't automatically make her transgender. Now that makes more sense. It's true that she doesn't like to be mistaken for a man. But couldn't it be because she is in denial? And couldn't she enjoy dancing with Renly because she likes men, regardless of being transgender or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Um...Uh...N...No... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Beyond the Wall Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Omg no! She is in every way a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usrnmhsnomning Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Being attracted to man does not imply that she is not transgender, sexuality and gender are entirely different matters. Right, because sexuality is about your emotional and mental experiences and responses to sex, and gender is about the biological nature of your body (and more modernly, contrasted with the psychological nature of your mind). Transgenderism relates to someone having a physical 'gender' that differentiates from their emotional/psychological 'gender'. This doesn't apply to Brienne; she doesn't express any indication that she truly believes she was born the wrong gender (i.e she doesn't believe she was born to be a man/is a man trapped in a womans body). She does feel guilty that her brothers died and robbed her father of a male heir, but those feelings of guilt do not relate to an incompatible relationship between her physical and mental state re gender. I think it's very very clear that Brienne is inherently not transgender. This thread feels like a bit of bait to me. Are you wanting to discuss Brienne's supposed transgenderism, or are you just trying to discuss transgenderism in general? Because as far as the former is concerned, the discussion is already over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pounce FTW Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 This is unbelievable. Why are posters picking on Brienne today? NO, she is NOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welease Woger Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Right, because sexuality is about your emotional and mental experiences and responses to sex, and gender is about the biological nature of your body (and more modernly, contrasted with the psychological nature of your mind). Transgenderism relates to someone having a physical 'gender' that differentiates from their emotional/psychological 'gender'. This doesn't apply to Brienne; she doesn't express any indication that she truly believes she was born the wrong gender (i.e she doesn't believe she was born to be a man/is a man trapped in a womans body). She does feel guilty that her brothers died and robbed her father of a male heir, but those feelings of guilt do not relate to an incompatible relationship between her physical and mental state re gender. I think it's very very clear that Brienne is inherently not transgender. This thread feels like a bit of bait to me. Are you wanting to discuss Brienne's supposed transgenderism, or are you just trying to discuss transgenderism in general? Because as far as the former is concerned, the discussion is already over. No this is not a bait thread, it's just something that captured my curiosity because in another thread someone asked why some people thought that Brienne was a lesbian (which she obviously is not) and someone else answered that maybe it had to do with her appearence (and poor reading skills). But you gave a rather complete and explanative answer, I think you're right, she's not transgender after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welease Woger Posted January 1, 2014 Author Share Posted January 1, 2014 Um...Uh...N...No... Omg no! She is in every way a woman. This is unbelievable. Why are posters picking on Brienne today? NO, she is NOT! Ok, I acknowledge that she is not transgender. But why is people so baffled? It's okay to be transgender. It's not like if I asked if she could be a pedophile-nazi-satanist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I hate you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krtmd Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Being attracted to man does not imply that she is not transgender, sexuality and gender are entirely different matters. I didn't say it did actually. I said that she identified as a heterosexual woman AND that there was no ambiguity to her self-identified gender role. She identifies as a woman, despite not adhering to the cultural demands of typical female behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Er Rn Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 This is unbelievable. Why are posters picking on Brienne today? NO, she is NOT!Because they're sick of the Jon Snow broke the NW neutrality argument? :POk, I acknowledge that she is not transgender. But why is people so baffled? It's okay to be transgender. It's not like if I asked if she could be a pedophile-nazi-satanist.I don't think anyone is saying there's anything wrong with being transgender. But between this thread and the feminism thread, it seems that if a woman has muscles and isn't beautiful and doesn't follow a traditional role in society, she must either be a lesbian or trans, despite evidence to the contrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Being attracted to man does not imply that she is not transgender, sexuality and gender are entirely different matters. Now that makes more sense. It's true that she doesn't like to be mistaken for a man. But couldn't it be because she is in denial? And couldn't she enjoy dancing with Renly because she likes men, regardless of being transgender or not? She explicitly says she likes dancing with Renly because he made her feel like a woman, not mainly because she's attracted to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Er Rn, on 01 Jan 2014 - 5:43 PM, said:Because they're sick of the Jon Snow broke the NW neutrality argument? :PI don't think anyone is saying there's anything wrong with being transgender. But between this thread and the feminism thread, it seems that if a woman has muscles and isn't beautiful and doesn't follow a traditional role in society, she must either be a lesbian or trans, despite evidence to the contrary.There is way too much NW neutrality stuff going around this week. And it's partially my fault! Anyways, I agree with your point about Brienne. Her POVs never show her questioning gender, she just doesn't fit the looks or behavior associated with femininity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pounce FTW Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Because they're sick of the Jon Snow broke the NW neutrality argument? :P The board does seem to have waves of threads about the same character so you're probably right and we've moved on from Jon to Brienne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shk12344 Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Ok, I acknowledge that she is not transgender. But why is people so baffled? It's okay to be transgender. It's not like if I asked if she could be a pedophile-nazi-satanist. That's a very offensive to pedophile nazi satanist. Check your privilege! :devil: BTW, still in college I presume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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