When was Joffrey a dead man?

[Shakez]

Hey first time poster here, i had a question that was aching me.

To me the preparations to get Joffrey killed started as soon after Petyr came back from bitterbridge with Tywin and the Tyrells. Did Petyr secretly strike a deal with the Tyrells before they joined Joffrey? Or was it after Sansa told Margaery and Olenna that Joffrey was a monster. To me they only wanted to be sure as to act on killing Joffrey when they invited Sansa.

When do you guy's think the plot was made.

[Hodor of House Hodor]

I think the plot was made at Bitterbridge.

Littlefinger was the envoy to bring them back, but the Lannisters didn't know/don't know Littlefinger's ultimate goals.

The Lannisters thought Littlefinger was their pawn, but they are his.

I think Littlefinger brokered the deal before they ever entered King's Landing.

That said, the Tyrell's may not have wanted to, as per the luncheon with Sansa where she called him a monster and they say "that's too bad." But in my above scenario, it could easily be "That's too bad, [Littlefinger was telling the truth of it. Now we need to go through with him.]"

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

The moment Cersei arrested Ned and Joffrey ignored all reason and had him killed. I knew in that moment he was dead meat.

[Julian Rayne]

I think that Littlefinger decided to destroy House Lannister including getting Joffrey to execute Ned and murdering Joffrey himself the moment Cersei refused him Sansa's hand.

He's petty and vindictive like that.

[joe42m1]

The moment Cersei arrested Ned and Joffrey ignored all reason and had him killed. I knew in that moment he was dead meat.

I agree. That seems to be the major catalyst for much of what follows.

[LovinRC]

The second he decided to have Bran killed. Then Cersei decided to have Robert killed. Then everyone started to put the pieces together.

[Buried Treasure]

That said, the Tyrell's may not have wanted to, as per the luncheon with Sansa where she called him a monster and they say "that's too bad." But in my above scenario, it could easily be "That's too bad, [Littlefinger was telling the truth of it. Now we need to go through with him.]"

:agree: Getting the confirmation from Sansa that Joff was a monster is what decided them.

I do think the Tyrells had an additional reason to murder Joff; it benefits them to keep the marriage unconsummated. An unconsummated marriage cannot be set aside without due cause but if it ever becomes expedient the Tyrells can choose to stop ignoring Tommen's bastardy and get an annulment. A consummated marriage cannot be set aside for any reason and Joff was old enough to do that whilst Tommen is not. Still, the Tyrell's might have been reluctant to murder Joff if he had been sweet and innocent.

[Neilos]

I think perhaps Littlefinger suggested (at Bitterbridge) that the current situation may be subject to 'change', and he may have dropped some hints and implications to help them make the 'right' decision. I doubt they actually plotted anything until the battle was won, and the QoT had heard what Sansa had to say.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Joff's fate was sealed when he became a part of Arya's prayers.

[Roddy the Ruin]

I agree with the above poster who said they want to keep the marriage unconsummated for as long as possible so they have a larger window to back out should they need to. Plus I'm sure Margaery preferred to marry Tommen cuz rumor has it he..... likes to play with his pussies B)

[TheCrannogDweller]

Whenever Littlefinger decided that he didn't need him or couldn't influence him. And that most likely was when Joffrey decided to chop Ned Stark's head off.

He pretty much describes what would happen to Ned:

“Now look at the other side of the coin. Joffrey is but twelve, and Robert gave you the regency, my lord. You are the Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. The power is yours, Lord Stark. All you need do is reach out and take it. Make your peace with the Lannisters. Release the Imp. Wed Joffrey to your Sansa. Wed your younger girl to Prince Tommen, and your heir to Myrcella. It will be four years before Joffrey comes of age. By then he will look to you as a second father, and if not, well… four years is a good long while, my lord. Long enough to dispose of Lord Stannis. Then, should Joffrey prove troublesome, we can reveal his little secret and put Lord Renly on the throne."

[complexphoenix]

Littlefinger began hatching his plot at Bitterbridge, and Joffrey's fate was sealed when Sansa told Olenna and Margaery the truth. To answer the question presented in the thread title on a larger level: Joff was a dead man the moment he said the words "Ser Ilyn, bring me his head." That was the moment when he cut himself off from all possible routes to survival. If the Tyrells hadn't gone over to his side Stannis would have won the Battle of the Blackwater and spiked his head; the Tyrells coming over to his side only served to delay his demise a few weeks before they killed him oh-so-subtly.

The only way he could get out of the Wot5K alive was by getting the Starks and Tullys to support him against Stannis by being gentle with Ned and using Sansa's love for him to make a peace and secure Robb's aid to keep him on the throne. Robb already hated Joffrey before Ned was executed, but he could be relied on to fight for his sister. If Sansa was for Joffrey, Robb would be too.

[LovinRC]

The minute Robert died. He was a horrible, not controllable, and could not enable any of the players to achieve their goal.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

I think he was doomed when he ordered Ned's head off. That was his first significant act as king and revealed exactly what kind of monster ruler he'd be. He would have been taken out sooner or later. The Kingsguard was shit, especially once the Hound left.

[Harle The Handsome]

Basically acts were set in motion when Littlefinger went to Highgarden to propose an alliance between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. When asked about Joffrey, Littlefinger would answer that he was handsome and fair. However, he allowed/encouraged the men in his service to tell (true) stories while drinking with the soldier of Highgarden. This was why Loras asked to serve in the Kingsguard (to protect his sister from Joffrey) and why the Tyrells asked Sansa what she truly thought of Joffrey.

Once the truth was out, it was inevitable that Joffrey would die. Since Dontas delivered the hairnet with the poisoned amethyst, Littlefinger clearly knew about it. he used the chaos following Joffrey's death to move Sansa to where he wanted her.