Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part I: AGoT

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

For me, it's not just a connection with animals that can be ridden. There is a question of bonding. There is an aspect of the animal in some sense choosing the rider. A very important fact: Things like riding the silver so well and riding the dragon at all happen with remarkable speed for Dany. It seems to me that this fact argues against ideas that what is going on is just a natural development or the revelation of the young woman's natural abilities.

Yea I agree with you. I definitely believe there is some sort of bonding going on, cause the author takes his time to use the words "lightest and most timid" touch and yet the horse moves faster then intended and gives Dany excitement rather than the expected fear.

Also the author uses "exciting rather than terrifying", in an ordinary situation the language used would have been "both exciting and terrifying" yet Dany only felt excitement, just like riding Drogon,

[MoIaF]

I agree, she is afraid and not yet mentally strong enough to even control her own power and her own connection to the dragons. I think this is foreshadowing of what it really means to be "the blood of the dragon" it takes a strong Targaryen to do it, shown by the sharp contrast between her and Viserys. VIserys has probably never had any dreams like this, he is not a 'worthy' member of his family to have the Midas touch like Dany. I like the was you said this is an example of Dany 'waking her dragon'. I agree it is the beginning of her dragon waking, which is not nearly as stupid and meaningless as when Viserys "wakes his dragon". As I said before Viserys has nothing except temper tantrums, he has no real power of heart, mind or blood. He is a bad seed, a selfish, pretentious bully who has no idea what he is even talking about most of the time. Dany is the exact opposite, she has power that she cannot even understand yet. She needs marriage, sex, betrayal, motherhood to bring out the life in her, only when she has experienced some real life will her "dragon be woken". Which is why I think the first dragon dream is in this chapter, it shows that something real is happening in her life and she is curious about marriage and sex and everything even if she is also scared of it.

I think it's great how scared Viserys is of her and how he can't stand that she is above him. He should be nervous, he probably secretly knows his little sisters worth and has been trying to subdue her for years, now she finally has her chance to get our from under him. And she immediately is blessed with her families signature dragon dream to welcome her into womanhood and start her powerful life.

Love it!!

I like the idea of her receiving her "family blessing" by having a dragon dream. It goes along with a later dream she'll have where her family begin to encorage her to wake the dragon and she flies towards the house with the red door.

Two very important points for me as we go forward:

I think Daenerys is interesting.

I think Daenerys is magical.

1. This is true. Exactly what the magical elements are can be debated.

2. I think the ride is magical. I developed this idea in a thread entitled "Dany the Rider":

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/97825-dany-the-rider/

I'll have more to say about this later, after we have covered more chapters. Here I'll just mention a few relevant parts of my opinion.

I frequently say that some things are plausibly due to magic instead of maintaining that they are definitely due to magic.

Certain events might be explained by magic or by more mundane factors. We are reading a fantasy, so I don't believe that the "everyday" explanation should always be the default choice. Some things might have a touch of magic to them, but only a touch. This can be a small but still worthwhile fact.

I claim that there is more than a little similarity between some of Dany's abilities (e.g. riding ability of various sorts). If one of these abilities shows a talent for magic, then it is plausible to argue that similar abilities have at least a bit of magic to them.

Some readers assert things along the line of "Dany herself attributes her initial ease with the silver horse to the particular quality of the horse itself." I don't think this is an accurate and full description of the event or Dany's feelings about it.

For me, it's not just a connection with animals that can be ridden. There is a question of bonding. There is an aspect of the animal in some sense choosing the rider. A very important fact: Things like riding the silver so well and riding the dragon at all happen with remarkable speed for Dany. It seems to me that this fact argues against ideas that what is going on is just a natural development or the revelation of the young woman's natural abilities.

Very well said. Dany's experience with magic goes along with Bran's - whatever gifts they have been given will become quite important as the series goes on.

[MoIaF]

1. A strange thing I noticed was that the slaves are dabbing perfume on Dany before she goes out to meet Drogo. One of the places they put perfume are her labia. This same thing happens in her final chapter in AGOT just before she enters the pyre. I thought crotch perfume seemed like an unusual thing. I don't recall any other characters doing this. Maybe it's an Essos thing. Or maybe it's meant to stress her fate as mother. The first time, she is about to become mother to Rhaego. The second time she is about to become the mother to dragons.

2. When Ilyrio comes to send Dany off, the color yellow is mentioned a few times in one paragraph. His beard is described once as yellow and once as gold. His teeth are yellow and crooked. There's the obvious connection with gold and wealth and also cowardice. However there's also this interesting tidbit from Wikipedia.

A further hint that Ilyrio is absolutely not to be trusted. That he will betray an ally or several?

3. When Dany goes to meet Drogo, there is a huge assembly of men and she notices she is the only woman there. Definitely an indication that she's a woman in a man's world and trying to play a game that is usually reserved for men, even though she doesn't that yet. I love that her chapter ends with

I love these three observations - very keen.

1. I wonder if we'll see that again, I do get the impression that Dany will be a mother eventually (I say this because of the apparent miscarriage at the end of ADWD). Perhaps, we should keep an eye out for another special perfuming. :D

2. I can actually see Illyrio switching sides, I think the only person he is loyal to is himself. Illyrio will always do what is best for Illyrio. While Varys has some idealism - Illyrio seems does not.

3. I think that is one of the things that makes Dany special, she lives in a male world and has been able to strive and excel where other (male or female) could not. In the buttebump!'s thread we are discussing Dany as an agent of change, I think in many ways that's true.

She is quite different from most fantasy female characters. She’s warrior without fighting, a princess without a tower, and a mother without children. She's creating her own role and on occasion trips but always manages to get right back up.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

A strange thing I noticed was that the slaves are dabbing perfume on Dany before she goes out to meet Drogo. One of the places they put perfume are her labia. This same thing happens in her final chapter in AGOT just before she enters the pyre. I thought crotch perfume seemed like an unusual thing. I don't recall any other characters doing this. Maybe it's an Essos thing. Or maybe it's meant to stress her fate as mother. The first time, she is about to become mother to Rhaego. The second time she is about to become the mother to dragons.

Oh I wanted to say, the perfume thing is a pretty standard practice in a lot of old religions. For instance, the Pagans used to do it to a bride on her wedding night. Some priestess would examine the bride's private parts and make sure she was "in tact" and still a virgin, then would put perfume on neck, nipples and crotch before she went in to sleep with her husband for the first time. It could be considered a 'right of passage'.

:cool4:

[LadyEmma]

Thank you for the wonderful summary and analysis on the first two chapters.

CHARACTER

Trying to apply Arya's Faceless Man training and reporting only what I know and not what I feel or think, it's interesting how little I can come up with about Dany's character. She is not used to luxeries. She is not naive. She is brave (even though she is fearful). She is lonely. The other thing I think is imporatant to note is not being naive isn't the same as being a good judge of character. It seems like she has blinders on to her brother's faults and she doesn't trust Illyrio but really he could have turned her over to King Robert if he really had bad intentions towards her yet he didn't.

DREAM

I like the idea of her dream being prophetic, it does seem to fit. Although my take was that she was processing what her situation was. She was fearful of her dragon/brother. The blood was representing her fear of losing her virginity and becoming a wife.

HORSE RIDER

I thought the part where she rides Sliver was written very well. For me, it was where she transcends being a frightened girl-child and takes control on her way to becoming a brave woman-child. Although her empowerment doesn't come completely from herself, I think it sets her up to embrace her new role with a powerful rather than fearful mindset.

[As a side point, Arya is a noted horse rider.]

MARRIAGE

In the two chapters, there are many references to Dany viewing herself being "sold": somehow a slave. To my recollection there is only one other woman character that viewed her arranged marriage as being sold (or something similar) and that is Cersi. Yet, it seems by the end of the second chapter that Dany is chosing a response more similar to Catelyn - that of embracing her duty and role.

[MoIaF]

Thank you for the wonderful summary and analysis on the first two chapters.

1.CHARACTER

Trying to apply Arya's Faceless Man training and reporting only what I know and not what I feel or think, it's interesting how little I can come up with about Dany's character. She is not used to luxeries. She is not naive. She is brave (even though she is fearful). She is lonely. The other thing I think is imporatant to note is not being naive isn't the same as being a good judge of character. It seems like she has blinders on to her brother's faults and she doesn't trust Illyrio but really he could have turned her over to King Robert if he really had bad intentions towards her yet he didn't.

2. DREAM

I like the idea of her dream being prophetic, it does seem to fit. Although my take was that she was processing what her situation was. She was fearful of her dragon/brother. The blood was representing her fear of losing her virginity and becoming a wife.

3. HORSE RIDER

I thought the part where she rides Sliver was written very well. For me, it was where she transcends being a frightened girl-child and takes control on her way to becoming a brave woman-child. Although her empowerment doesn't come completely from herself, I think it sets her up to embrace her new role with a powerful rather than fearful mindset.

[As a side point, Arya is a noted horse rider.]

4. MARRIAGE

In the two chapters, there are many references to Dany viewing herself being "sold": somehow a slave. To my recollection there is only one other woman character that viewed her arranged marriage as being sold (or something similar) and that is Cersi. Yet, it seems by the end of the second chapter that Dany is chosing a response more similar to Catelyn - that of embracing her duty and role.

You are very welcome and thank you.

Welocme to the board!

1. This is very true; when she was receiving the wedding gifts she says something like she got more gifts than she want or need. She's obviously not accustomed to having many processions. As someone who traveled often - I imagine she only carried with her the things that she needed. In an odd sort of way she’s already experience a nomadic sort of life.

2. The fear of her upcoming wedding and her brother are probably why the dream was triggered in the first place. She misunderstood it and was fearful of it, but in reality the dream was a way of showing her that she didn’t need to fear, she was a dragon – a real dragon.

3. Dany and Arya are alike in some ways.. I think there biggest likeness is that they both have tremendous inner strength and they are both survivors. Life has been hard for the two of them, especially in their childhood and they have both risen above it. The ride with the horse was a bonding moment for Dany and having that bond showed her the inner strength she already had.

4. Yes - good point. it shows Dany’s willingness to make the best of a bad situation.

[Arya kiddin']

Bowdown to you MOIAF, a truly well written summary, with many interesting observations. :bowdown: Great job.

AGOT Daenerys II

Birth of a Khaleesi

1. This is Danys first dragon dream and it appears that it is prophetic in nature as it seems to depict the birth of her dragons.

Her brother is abusing her, screaming at her that she woke the dragon then he disappears and is replaced by an actual dragon. Through the dream we see foreshadowing of how the dragons will come back to life.

"Her thighs were slick with blood" this is likely a depiction of the stillbirth of Rhaego. "she closed her eyes and whispered" and this could be a representation of the time Dany spent recovering from the stillbirth.

"there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire" this is after her recovery once the funeral pyre has been lit and the eggs begin to hatch.

"When she looks again, Viserys was gone,great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turns its great head slowly. when its molted eyes found hers" Viserys is now gone, now she is the only one left. She is inside the funeral pyre when she comes face to face with the dragon. I think this is both a representation of Drogon molten eyes and of Dany herself. Also note she refers to it as the dragon not a dragon

"she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheet of sweat. She had never been so afraid." At this point Dany is not yet ready to confront her inner dragon, she is afraid of it, waking the dragon has never been a good thing for her.



2. Drogo gives Dany a silver filly "the pride of the khalasar." Dany can instantly tell that the filly is indeed special, she describes her as grey as the water sea, with a mare like silver smoke. Dany considered herself a fair rider, yet the moment she mounted her silver she was one with the horse "and for the first time in hours she forgot to be afraid. Or perhaps it was for the first time ever." As she continues to ride she became embolden and fearless - she became free "the silver horse leapt the flames as if she had wings." wink, wink.

This ride is special, almost magical. Dany bonds with the horse almost immediately the horse instinctively know what Dany wants.

I want to compare this to the first time Dany flew Drogon:

"The lash was still in her hand. She flicked it against Drogons neck and cried, Higher! Her other hand clutched at his scales, her fingers scrabbling for purchase. Drogons wide black wings beat in the air. Dany could feel the what of him between her thighs. Her heart felt as if it were about to burst. Yes, she thought, yes, now, now, do it, do it, take me, take me, FLY!"

Both rides are highly liberating for Dany. Her ride with her silver is freeing in the sense that for the first time in her life she wasn't afraid, she was free of the shackle that was her brother for at least that moment. Her ride atop Drogon is freeing in a different way, it is described in an almost orgasmic way - a sexual release. Drogon took her away from the shackle of Meereen.

(HOTU speculation: if we believe that her silver (gray) was her first mount, and Drogon (black) was her second mount, I wonder if her third mount will be white?)

1. This is very astute analysis. Targaryen dreams are depicted as prophetic in nature, and this gives us great insight into how we depict such a dream. I'd say it is almost literal. We can say that her having the dream rightly proboscises her having the dragons in the future. The Pyre was a miracle, but it was not staged there. It's stage was built up before already. :)
   
   
2. The point you (and Queen Alyssanne) raise about Dany possibly bonding with the fily is very interesting. We generally see the perception on the board that the First Men blood is needed for skinchanging. Is this example something similar? Is Dany really skinchanging the filly and later Drogon? I'm inclined to believe that Dragonbinding and warging might be more similar than they appear to us.

I think there is something to this, I am not sure if it is specific to Dany or her ancestral blood but its seems very "interesting". Dany is timid at this point and afraid of almost everything going and she also describes herself as a fair rider not experienced, yet with the slightest touch all her fears go away and she is able jump a "firepit". Also when Dany rode Drogon she said she felt "whole". And even considered riding him in the Dothraki sea for the rest of her days.

So I'm not sure if there is something going on in connection to animals that can be ridden.

Yes this talk of feeling whole made me think about it. It is curiously similar to the conversation between Bran and Jojen - The man is the wolf and the wolf is the man, they are one. (Not verbatim)

[Maia]

Dany also notes that although Illyrios gift is lavish, he could afford it as he had collected a fortune in horses and slaves from brokering the marriage.

This part always made me wonder about Drogo's motives for this marriage. It is often argued that Drogo didn't care about Dany's heritage, yet would he pay so much for beauty alone? Particularly since GRRM apparently didn't envision Dany's Valyrian looks to be as unique as they appeared to be in AGoT.

And there is also this - Drogo was in his late 20-ties, yet unmarried and without kids. That should be pretty unusual for Dothraki, whose lives are often brutish and short and who are so matter-of-fact about sex.

It seems to me that Drogo was not content with being the strongest Dothraki khal, he was looking for something more/different (unification of all khalasars?) and marriage to Dany was part of that. That would explain Illyrio's gift of dragon eggs to Dany, even though she was no more than a pawn to him - to underscore her specialness to Drogo. And it would explain Drogo's exceptional willingness to humor Dany when she started doing unconventional things, IMHO.

Drogo is surprisingly gentle with Dany and although I understand why GRRM wrote the scene this way (he needed Dany to give consent) I found it inconsistent with the way Drogo will behave in the next two chapters. For me if you are going to show the Dothraki as savages you should commit to it all the way.

Indeed. I also wish that we had more details on Dothraki culture. These women who danced for Drogo and got "mounted" by random men - were they slaves? What would the situation of resultant children be?

If they were free - how do family structures among the Dothraki work? Particularly if some khals really share their wives with their bloodriders and can't be sure of the paternity of "their" children?

What is the situation of the children of female slaves in general? Where are Drogo's bastards - even if he held off from marriage because he felt that no Dothraki woman was worthy of him, surely he didn't stint himself sexually and should have had scores of them? Etc., etc. Stuff like this justifiably gets Dany's storyline criticized for lack of world-building depth.

Illyrio's intentions for Dany and Viserys is shown as questionable from this quote: “He will have the girl first, and after they are wed he must make his procession across the plains and present her to the dosh khaleen at Vaes Dothrak. After that, perhaps. If the omens favor war.” So Illyrio clearly knew that Drogo might not want to go to westeros, so this is another hint that he just wanted to put Dany and Viserys in the limelight? so Aegon isn't noticed.

And yet, as we learned in ADwD, he told the Golden Company to expect Viserys with the Dothraki in tow. Since the Golden Company was part of Illyrio's real, Aegon-oriented plan, I don't see how the Dothraki scheme could have been possibly intended just as a distraction. IMHO, Illyrio had some ideas re: how to motivate Drogo to keep his word, whether Dany and Viserys lived or died out in the Dothraki sea. Also, Dothraki culture must have some shame mechanisms to make people keep their promises, otherwise the whole "exchange of gifts" trade system wouldn't work.

[SeanF]

And yet, as we learned in ADwD, he told the Golden Company to expect Viserys with the Dothraki in tow. Since the Golden Company was part of Illyrio's real, Aegon-oriented plan, I don't see how the Dothraki scheme could have been possibly intended just as a distraction. IMHO, Illyrio had some ideas re: how to motivate Drogo to keep his word, whether Dany and Viserys lived or died out in the Dothraki sea. Also, Dothraki culture must have some shame mechanisms to make people keep their promises, otherwise the whole "exchange of gifts" trade system wouldn't work.

Illyrio had probably got to know Drogo quite well. Drogo owns a manse in Pentos, and probably visits the city regularly.

I think Illyrio went to far too much trouble, just to see Viserys and Dany die in the Dothraki Sea. He talks to Tyrion about how Viserys would have ruined "years of planning" had he raped Dany.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Illyrio had probably got to know Drogo quite well. Drogo owns a manse in Pentos, and probably visits the city regularly.

I think Illyrio went to far too much trouble, just to see Viserys and Dany die in the Dothraki Sea. He talks to Tyrion about how Viserys would have ruined "years of planning" had he raped Dany.

I completely agree. I had a whole thread on this subject a while ago

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91016-why-would-varys-and-ilyrio-help-dany-and-aegon-blackfyre-or-targaryen-supporters/

Most people on the thread agreed that Illyrio is working for the Balckfyre's the whole time, even when he was helping Dany. I think he is involved with Varys and the Blackfyres, but I still feel like there is a little more to him helping Dany so much and giving her the eggs than other posters do on the thread,

[MoIaF]

Bowdown to you MOIAF, a truly well written summary, with many interesting observations. :bowdown: Great job.

1. This is very astute analysis. Targaryen dreams are depicted as prophetic in nature, and this gives us great insight into how we depict such a dream. I'd say it is almost literal. We can say that her having the dream rightly proboscises her having the dragons in the future. The Pyre was a miracle, but it was not staged there. It's stage was built up before already. :)

2. The point you (and Queen Alyssanne) raise about Dany possibly bonding with the fily is very interesting. We generally see the perception on the board that the First Men blood is needed for skinchanging. Is this example something similar? Is Dany really skinchanging the filly and later Drogon? I'm inclined to believe that Dragonbinding and warging might be more similar than they appear to us.

Yes this talk of feeling whole made me think about it. It is curiously similar to the conversation between Bran and Jojen - The man is the wolf and the wolf is the man, they are one. (Not verbatim)

1. Absolutely, the clues are there with regards to the pyre you just have to notice them. This is Dany's second chapter and GRRM has already told us how Dany's story will end in AGOT. I know some believe that when Targaryens dream of dragons it usually relates to Targaryens instead of real dragons. Yet, there are two clear examples of dragons dreams that are prophecies about real dragons.

• Dany's dream
• and Daeron's dream:

"Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron’s dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy."

—Egg, in The Mystery Knight

This is an important dream, as I think her other dragon dreams are.

2. The bonding I believe has magical elements to it, it's not quite skinchanging but a sort of deep understanding.

[MoIaF]

Illyrio had probably got to know Drogo quite well. Drogo owns a manse in Pentos, and probably visits the city regularly.

I think Illyrio went to far too much trouble, just to see Viserys and Dany die in the Dothraki Sea. He talks to Tyrion about how Viserys would have ruined "years of planning" had he raped Dany.

Whatever he had/has planned must be very detailed and I wonder how much Aegon's deviation will derail Illyrio of what he initially had in mind.

He has obviously been keeping an eye on Dany for a long time and has continued to keep tabs. I always wondered if he had/has an in with one of the Dothraki who are with Dany.

[Gogossos]

Firstly, I'd like to thank Maester for this most civil Dany thread I've seen in a long while. I'm afraid I don't have my AGOT at hand, I lent it to a friend, so it'll be a while till I can contribute fully. The thing that struck me while reading the first few pages of this thread is the juxtaposing of Viserys and Dany, most of you say how observant she is and she seems more worldly than him. I loved, loved, absolutely loved the observation that Viserys shares views similar to the likes of Tywin and Cersei concerning a child whose mother died at childbirth. It puts Viserys in the league he belongs, even Barristan notes how even as a child Viserys was obviously his father's son.

Now, place him with his temper, lack of wit, blind ambition next a timid, afraid but cleverer sister, you begin to wonder how much was planned by Illyrio/Varys and how much was chance. I doubt Dany's awareness, attention to detail and observation skills were ever externalised. I doubt anyone ever thought she could amount to much. Except ...

This part always made me wonder about Drogo's motives for this marriage. It is often argued that Drogo didn't care about Dany's heritage, yet would he pay so much for beauty alone?

This is a really good point. I think you alluded to an equally good answer in your post Maia. Drogo didn't want to be just a great Khal, I believe his ambitions were greater than that. Marrying another Dothraki wouldn't advance him the way he wants. But Dany is of great pedigree Valyrian blood. That's why, in my view, he's gentle for their first night. There is a lavish gift, a lavish wedding, Drogo is looking beyond Illyrio's view. Illyrio had his own fish to fry and getting her and Viserys as far away as possible in the Dothraki sea served him best. But he didn't know Drogo was looking at breeding the mount that rides the world. But I'm getting ahead of myself, I'll have to revisit this thought when we get to the relevant chapter.

Another idea I loved was the riding her Silver incident (isn't it amazing this filly has never been named?). I agree it is "interesting". The first concept (sorry guys I can't quote everyone, it would make my post untenable; so many good posts in here) was that this ties to the HOTU visions, the 3 mounts. I'm not 100% on board with the most literal translation, but I would also point out that both first rides of the silver and Drogon take place during her wedding days, her wedding ceremonies. So there could be an idea of mounts being her husbands ... The other concept was that she was bonding/magically connecting with the filly. The evidence that she wasn't an excellent rider but immediately, competently rides the filly. It's amazing. (It's worth noting that the filly, in the books at least, is still alive. She's as symbolic as as the dragons).

Finally, the dragon dream. Why now? Is it fair to say this is the first time she has it? I think we agree she has woken her dragon and it occurs here because she is becoming a Khaleesi. She overtakes her brother's ranking, becomes a Khaleesi, meets her Silver for the first time, encounters her dragon eggs. Waking the dragon. On reflection, this is her most important chapter, no?

[MoIaF]

Another idea I loved was the riding her Silver incident (isn't it amazing this filly has never been named?). I agree it is "interesting". The first concept (sorry guys I can't quote everyone, it would make my post untenable; so many good posts in here) was that this ties to the HOTU visions, the 3 mounts. I'm not 100% on board with the most literal translation, but I would also point out that both first rides of the silver and Drogon take place during her wedding days, her wedding ceremonies. So there could be an idea of mounts being her husbands ... .

You are very welcome and thank you for joining us.

I just though of something while reading your comments. Very astute observation about Dany riding both her mounts on both her wedding days (technically the day after for her second wedding). I didn't make that connection and I occurred to me that the "mounts" might be literal and figurative.

..one to bed... she rides her filly to bed Drogo.

...one to dread... she rides Drogon away from H&*(^% a marriage which she dreaded.

...one to love... this mount might guide her to the one she'll love.

we can discuss this further when we reach the HOTU chapter - I just didn't want to forget what I though. :D

ETA:

1. This part always made me wonder about Drogo's motives for this marriage. It is often argued that Drogo didn't care about Dany's heritage, yet would he pay so much for beauty alone? Particularly since GRRM apparently didn't envision Dany's Valyrian looks to be as unique as they appeared to be in AGoT.

And there is also this - Drogo was in his late 20-ties, yet unmarried and without kids. That should be pretty unusual for Dothraki, whose lives are often brutish and short and who are so matter-of-fact about sex.

It seems to me that Drogo was not content with being the strongest Dothraki khal, he was looking for something more/different (unification of all khalasars?) and marriage to Dany was part of that. That would explain Illyrio's gift of dragon eggs to Dany, even though she was no more than a pawn to him - to underscore her specialness to Drogo. And it would explain Drogo's exceptional willingness to humor Dany when she started doing unconventional things, IMHO.

2. Indeed. I also wish that we had more details on Dothraki culture. These women who danced for Drogo and got "mounted" by random men - were they slaves? What would the situation of resultant children be?

If they were free - how do family structures among the Dothraki work? Particularly if some khals really share their wives with their bloodriders and can't be sure of the paternity of "their" children?

What is the situation of the children of female slaves in general? Where are Drogo's bastards - even if he held off from marriage because he felt that no Dothraki woman was worthy of him, surely he didn't stint himself sexually and should have had scores of them? Etc., etc. Stuff like this justifiably gets Dany's storyline criticized for lack of world-building depth.

And yet, as we learned in ADwD, he told the Golden Company to expect Viserys with the Dothraki in tow. Since the Golden Company was part of Illyrio's real, Aegon-oriented plan, I don't see how the Dothraki scheme could have been possibly intended just as a distraction. IMHO, Illyrio had some ideas re: how to motivate Drogo to keep his word, whether Dany and Viserys lived or died out in the Dothraki sea. Also, Dothraki culture must have some shame mechanisms to make people keep their promises, otherwise the whole "exchange of gifts" trade system wouldn't work.

Thanks Maia!

1. That's an excellent observation and I'm not sure we'll ever get an answer for it but it gives Drogo a bit more depth. It does make you wonder though what the other khals thought of Drogo taking a non-Dothraki as a wife, even with Dany's royal blood it of royal book.

2. I don't know if we'll get more insight into Dothraki culture once Dany returns to Vaes Dothrak, but it would be interesting. I think though we might get a bit more insight into the Dothraki's role in the slavery industry.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

And yet, as we learned in ADwD, he told the Golden Company to expect Viserys with the Dothraki in tow. Since the Golden Company was part of Illyrio's real, Aegon-oriented plan, I don't see how the Dothraki scheme could have been possibly intended just as a distraction. IMHO, Illyrio had some ideas re: how to motivate Drogo to keep his word, whether Dany and Viserys lived or died out in the Dothraki sea. Also, Dothraki culture must have some shame mechanisms to make people keep their promises, otherwise the whole "exchange of gifts" trade system wouldn't work.

You're right, I completely forgot about that part.

Another idea I loved was the riding her Silver incident (isn't it amazing this filly has never been named?). I agree it is "interesting". The first concept (sorry guys I can't quote everyone, it would make my post untenable; so many good posts in here) was that this ties to the HOTU visions, the 3 mounts. I'm not 100% on board with the most literal translation, but I would also point out that both first rides of the silver and Drogon take place during her wedding days, her wedding ceremonies. So there could be an idea of mounts being her husbands ... The other concept was that she was bonding/magically connecting with the filly. The evidence that she wasn't an excellent rider but immediately, competently rides the filly. It's amazing. (It's worth noting that the filly, in the books at least, is still alive. She's as symbolic as as the dragons).

Wow thats very interesting I never looked at it that way, they were both on her wedding days. Nice catch :thumbsup:

You are very welcome and thank you for joining us.

I just though of something while reading your comments. Very astute observation about Dany riding both her mounts on both her wedding days (technically the day after for her second wedding). I didn't make that connection and I occurred to me that the "mounts" might be literal and figurative.

..one to bed... she rides her filly to bed Drogo.

...one to dread... she rides Drogon away from H&*(^% a marriage which she dreaded.

...one to love... this mount might guide her to the one she'll love.

Interesting!!!

[Parwan]

This part always made me wonder about Drogo's motives for this marriage. It is often argued that Drogo didn't care about Dany's heritage, yet would he pay so much for beauty alone? Particularly since GRRM apparently didn't envision Dany's Valyrian looks to be as unique as they appeared to be in AGoT.

And there is also this - Drogo was in his late 20-ties, yet unmarried and without kids. That should be pretty unusual for Dothraki, whose lives are often brutish and short and who are so matter-of-fact about sex.

It seems to me that Drogo was not content with being the strongest Dothraki khal, he was looking for something more/different (unification of all khalasars?) and marriage to Dany was part of that. That would explain Illyrio's gift of dragon eggs to Dany, even though she was no more than a pawn to him - to underscore her specialness to Drogo. And it would explain Drogo's exceptional willingness to humor Dany when she started doing unconventional things, IMHO.

Indeed. I also wish that we had more details on Dothraki culture...

It has always seemed to me that Dany's heritage was the essence of the matter for Drogo. One of the most important things for a man like him would be to have strong sons. Consider the negotiation between Illyrio and the khal leading up to the betrothal party. What would the merchant have said? "Hey, she's really good looking"? I can't imagine that would be much of a selling point. The strongest khal in the world would have no trouble in obtaining good looking women to have sex with. On the other hand, Drogo surely was at least a reasonably intelligent man. He would have heard of Valyria and Valyrian steel. He sure as hell would know about dragonbone. When the Pentosi cheesemonger offered him the chance to mate with a direct female descendant of Aegon the Conquerer, the khal would certainly be interested.

I think that Drogo showed more than just willingness to humor Dany. We'll get to that in a few chapters.

A couple of other things are worthy of note. The betrothal party was a big deal. I don't think Illyrio was lying to Viserys about the need for security. Important men were there. It's clear that there were men present who had come from a good part of Essos, lords from the Summer Isles, etc. These fellows didn't show up just to see if some "savage" liked a new prospective bed mate. They would have known that this was an important event, and they would have had an interest in getting in on the deal, or at least getting info on the deal and how it was going. Finally, on the business of our knowledge of Dothraki culture--We are surely getting some unreliable narration. For example, we have the business that Illyrio puts out about how a Dothraki wedding without at least three deaths is deemed dull. That doesn't ring true to me. Sure, the Dothraki are a warrior people who value strength. But killing large numbers of your own warriors and wounding others would weaken, not strengthen the khalasar. Any warrior group would have limits to intra group violence, or it wouldn't last too long.

[Castellan]

Like the thread.

There has been a lot of discussion of the silver but not of the person who gave her such a beautiful present. I think Drogo should get credit. I have to say I don't agree the wedding night scene is just put in to show consent as somene has suggested, the whole story is one of shy put upon bride blossoming and finding her feet, its straight out of women's romantic and historical fiction (I am not saying that as a put down) and getting a present of a wonderful silver horse belongs right there in that tradition too.

By the way, on the wedding night there is a strange sort of not exactly foreplay where he feels her muscles like he is buying a horse, and she gets to comb out his long black 'mane' with her fingers. They are horsey people!

[Gogossos]

A couple of other things are worthy of note. The betrothal party was a big deal.

Yeah, this is a fact easy to overlook. The biggest khalasar is in town, one of the most feared khals is here to take his bride, a Valyrian princess no less. That must have caused a raucous - just among ordinary citizens at least. We'll have to look at Pentosi politics more closely later but seeing how powerful Illyrio is (fears no consequence for having slaves) - and how it must have seemed obvious he was hosting Viserys and Dany - his plan should have been an open secret amongst the powerful as well. And yet all this time, Aegon was tucked away, so which plan was A and which was B?

[Lady of Dragonstone]

My Sister for a Crown

Viserys agrees to marry his sister to Khal Drogo with the promise that Drogo will eventually help him conquer Westeros. He is assured by both Illyrio and Ser Jorah that the Dothraki are true to their word.

The Dothraki might be true to their word but it struck me the Viserys sold his sister for a promise from a man he didnt even know. We eventually learn that the Dothraki are weary of traveling in open water. It makes you wonder if they would have ever gone to war for Viserys, especially after Drogo got to know him and saw how weak he was. Illyrio got his compensation for arranging the wedding but I dont believe Viserys would have gotten his, in the end he gave his sister up for nothing.

This is what really struck me in this chapter. Dany is often portrayed as naive, but what of Viserys? As Dany points out, they don't fully know Illyrio and his reputation is tarnished. She questions her own trust in him, but Viserys seems to blindly trust Illyrio (and Drogo, for that matter). Is this the opposite of paranoid Aerys, or was this how Aerys started out? Dany analyzes the situation based on all the available information, while Viserys seems to be operating on sheer emotion.

I love the dragon dreams. I definitely think they are prophetic, I wonder why Dany is first manifesting this ability at this time. She wakes up frightened here, but IIRC, her later dream serves to comfort her. I suppose that is discussion fodder for later, but it is helpful to point out that she is undergoing a transition between being afraid of the dragon, and being the dragon itself. I believe she has been under this transition throughout the series.

I did reread this chapter before I posted this, and for the first time it did strike me how big of a deal the betrothal party was. I hadn't noticed that before either, great observation.

Super excited for this thread.

[SeanF]

Yeah, this is a fact easy to overlook. The biggest khalasar is in town, one of the most feared khals is here to take his bride, a Valyrian princess no less. That must have caused a raucous - just among ordinary citizens at least. We'll have to look at Pentosi politics more closely later but seeing how powerful Illyrio is (fears no consequence for having slaves) - and how it must have seemed obvious he was hosting Viserys and Dany - his plan should have been an open secret amongst the powerful as well. And yet all this time, Aegon was tucked away, so which plan was A and which was B?

I think a lot of people in Essos were taking a lot of interest in Danerys, for years. Hopefully, these plots will be revealed in more detail in coming books.

I wonder, too, what they make of her anti-slavery crusade. Can they live with it? Do they think they can talk her out of it? Or will they "free" their slaves, while still actually keeping them as slaves (like Illyrio)?