The Fallen Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 There were still a couple of hours before Sansa/Arya's ship left when Cersei struck, and I doubt that Cersei even without knowing Ned's plan to evacuate his children would wait a couple hours after Robert's death before solidifying her control knowing that Ned knew about the twincest. Right. This is Sansa: So she went to the queen instead, and poured out her heart, and Cersei had listened and thanked her sweetly . . . only then Ser Arys had escorted her to the high room in Maegor's Holdfast and posted guards, and a few hours later, the fighting had begun outside. This is Cersei: "Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . . " Ned didn't plan to confront Cersei until after his daughters had left King's Landing. Sansa spills the beans and Cersei hastens her own plans. There's no evidence that Cersei planned to confront Ned that day, never mind that morning. I also don't want to get into a tit-for-tat with you where you nitpick, split hairs or play semantics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmd Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Not me. He knew evil and good. But I don't think he would have accompanied Frodo (except maybe as Sean Bean!) You know if Martin had written LOTR, Frodo would've died after fellowship of the ring, and we'd get a Sauron POV where we'd all be like, hey this guy is not too bad, I kind of see his side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKitttenGuard Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Trusting Littlefinger. Ned's coup plan wasn't bad.Why do people think out bribing the Lannister is a great idea?What really preventing Slynt from still going Lannister since they can pay and double?When the plan came down to that maybe Ned should of sense something not right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 This is Cersei: "Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans . . . " Ned didn't plan to confront Cersei until after his daughters had left King's Landing. Sansa spills the beans and Cersei hastens her own plans. There's no evidence that Cersei planned to confront Ned that day, never mind that morning. I also don't want to get into a tit-for-tat with you where you nitpick, split hairs or play semantics. Cersei is a liar, as notable in how Sansa would have had no idea about Ned's connection with Renly, Stannis, or any other plans besides sending them home. Moreover, it would have been beyond idiotic for Cersei to just sit around and not attempt to solidify control over King's Landing immediately knowing that Ned was going to act against her because of his knowledge about the Twincest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Regarding_Sansa Sansa had a role to play in Ned's downfall. End of Story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sister Meribald Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 He was honorable to the point of stupidity. There's your honor, and there's common sense. When you find out your prince is the product of incest involving the queen, you don't pull the queen aside and say, "Yeah, so I know what you did, and I'm going to tell your husband when he gets back. Heads up, in case you want to run away with your tail between your legs - or kill the king and then ruin me..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynned Lannistark Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Ned is not naive or stupid. Sansa is naive. Ned knows exactly what he is going into in kings landing, and he understands there is a game of thrones. Its not that he doesn't play it because he can - he refuses to play it because he thinks it beneath him.And as OnionAhaiReborn noted - Ned doesn't keep honor above everything - that would turn him into someone like Stannis. He values it , but can compromise it when for example his family is concerned. But he compromises it only when it the easy choice, and when the difficult decisions come he bails and sticks to his honor. He rebels against king Aerys, but than looks disgusted at the Lannisters for killing the king and his family (how did you think you were going to end the war?).He goes to kings landing, knowing what is going on there, but refuses to participate in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 (...) He rebels against king Aerys, but than looks disgusted at the Lannisters for killing the king and his family (how did you think you were going to end the war?). (...) My best guess: by not taking KL by treachery, not sacking it violently, not butchering two infants and their mother, by killing the king, but not by having him backstabbed by his sworn bodyguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 My best guess: by not taking KL by treachery, not sacking it violently, not butchering two infants and their mother, by killing the king, but not by having him backstabbed by his sworn bodyguard. If it were Ned who took the city, I would assume neither Aegon nor Rhaenys die. I don't even know if Bob would have the heart to kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thucydides Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Eddard was not dubious enough of (perhaps blind to?) Catelyn's frequent sentimentality. She wanted him to take the job of Hand to the King because she wanted Sansa to be Queen and Arya to be raised at court. She wanted him to trust LF based on her childhood memories. Ned should have been more circumspect about her advice in these areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Eddard was not dubious enough of (perhaps blind to?) Catelyn's frequent sentimentality. She wanted him to take the job of Hand to the King because she wanted Sansa to be Queen and Arya to be raised at court. She wanted him to trust LF based on her childhood memories. Ned should have been more circumspect about her advice in these areas. There is nothing wrong with the desire for Ned to take up the Handship in general (aka why Luwin supported it also),instead the problemx came about because Ned decided to blunder around as Hand rather then use his position and even attempt to play the game. Furthermore, LF gave Ned numerous hints not to trust(including IIRC telling him directly) that Ned should have been able put two plus two together by himself then to continue to believe Catelyn would want him to trust LF even after those hints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysler Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 I'm the first man to admit that the Ned lacked political skills that didn't depend on his position as the top dog. But I'll never dislike an honorable man for trying to do what's right. Yes, he could've done things better, but his death or the war were not his fault in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory Cassel Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 If it were Ned who took the city, I would assume neither Aegon nor Rhaenys die. I don't even know if Bob would have the heart to kill them. I fully agree, I meant them with 'infants', perhaps I should've specified as plenty of children/babies died during Tywin's violent sack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dananias Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 His biggest character flaw, IMO, is his "self-esteem" if you will. He seldom expresses respect for anyone, warheroes and dead guys excluded. And after my 2nd reread I noticed how he talks to almost everyone with contempt, apart from his friend and family. Sean Bean's Ned isn't quite as cold as book Ned, but the way he speaks to Jaime in the Throneroom is pretty much how he speaks to everyone, vile contempt. Am I making any sense? so I guess it's his Honor that's his flaw, but not because it's exploited but because he's so Holier than thou about it. I really didn't like Ned that 2nd time I read aGoT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 His biggest character flaw, IMO, is his "self-esteem" if you will. He seldom expresses respect for anyone, warheroes and dead guys excluded. And after my 2nd reread I noticed how he talks to almost everyone with contempt, apart from his friend and family. Sean Bean's Ned isn't quite as cold as book Ned, but the way he speaks to Jaime in the Throneroom is pretty much how he speaks to everyone, vile contempt. Am I making any sense? so I guess it's his Honor that's his flaw, but not because it's exploited but because he's so Holier than thou about it. I really didn't like Ned that 2nd time I read aGoT Who does he all talk to with contempt? Honestly, this the guy who hardly thinks negatively about his enemies from Robert's Rebellion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Holy Goat Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 His honor. Honor is a good thinkg to have, but one should not let honor get in the way of necessity. It was necessary for Ned to be pragmatic, but his honor stood in the way and would not budge, which is why he was thrown into the black cells. Only then did he realize his own folly. I would never call Ned stupid or lacking in common sense though. He was no mastermind, and focused very much on honor, but he still seemed like a fairly intelligent and capable man overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 His biggest character flaw, IMO, is his "self-esteem" if you will. He seldom expresses respect for anyone, warheroes and dead guys excluded. And after my 2nd reread I noticed how he talks to almost everyone with contempt, apart from his friend and family. Sean Bean's Ned isn't quite as cold as book Ned, but the way he speaks to Jaime in the Throneroom is pretty much how he speaks to everyone, vile contempt. Am I making any sense? so I guess it's his Honor that's his flaw, but not because it's exploited but because he's so Holier than thou about it. I really didn't like Ned that 2nd time I read aGoT Ned isn't really good with mockery. When Ned hears Renly joke about Shireen, other people laughed but Ned didn't. And Ned is very respectful to people in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlatxo Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share Posted January 10, 2014 His biggest character flaw, IMO, is his "self-esteem" if you will. He seldom expresses respect for anyone, warheroes and dead guys excluded. And after my 2nd reread I noticed how he talks to almost everyone with contempt, apart from his friend and family. Sean Bean's Ned isn't quite as cold as book Ned, but the way he speaks to Jaime in the Throneroom is pretty much how he speaks to everyone, vile contempt. Am I making any sense? so I guess it's his Honor that's his flaw, but not because it's exploited but because he's so Holier than thou about it. I really didn't like Ned that 2nd time I read aGoT Now this one I can roll with. In fact, I feel exactly the same way with my experience of book Ned. Even though I consider myself NOW a somewhat advance ASOIAF fan, what really got me in the series was HBO GoT... And my first read of AGoT I lost about 25% of my Ned fanboy self. Sometimes I can't even picture Sean Bean as book Ned. There's always that sense of too much righteousness with him... And some hints of fake humility and disguised contempt. Funny thing is my wife have fights with me because of her difference of opinion from mine, to the point that she is even claiming GRRM wrote Ned to be faultless and perfect. Pffffft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dananias Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Who does he all talk to with contempt? Honestly, this the guy who hardly thinks negatively about his enemies from Robert's Rebellion. Can't pin point an exact conversation right now, but I remember reading and thinking "When did he become a massive douche?" and Martin often notes after Ned's lines that he said something "all to sharply" or his tone "cold". Again, just the way it seemed to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dananias Posted January 10, 2014 Share Posted January 10, 2014 Now this one I can roll with. In fact, I feel exactly the same way with my experience of book Ned. Even though I consider myself NOW a somewhat advance ASOIAF fan, what really got me in the series was HBO GoT... And my first read of AGoT I lost about 25% of my Ned fanboy self. Sometimes I can't even picture Sean Bean as book Ned. There's always that sense of too much righteousness with him... And some hints of fake humility and disguised contempt. Funny thing is my wife have fights with me because of her difference of opinion from mine, to the point that she is even claiming GRRM wrote Ned to be faultless and perfect. Pffffft. Yay, someone's agreeing with me. While I love Ned's chapters, because he is a good character, I really think he would've become very dull if he hadn't died in the first one. And Ned on the show is still my favourite character (90% cause Sean Bean). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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