What is Ned Stark's most negative trait or feature, if any?

[David Selig]

Ned didn't plan to confront Cersei until after his daughters had left King's Landing. Sansa spills the beans and Cersei hastens her own plans. There's no evidence that Cersei planned to confront Ned that day, never mind that morning.

The king died this morning. Of course Cersei would've made her move the same day. That's Royal Succession 101 - you move as fast as possible to put the heir in charge to minimize the potential problems. Especially when there's a good reason to expect challenges of the legitimacy of the new king.

[Brightstar_]

A lot of people are talking about stupid things he did, not inheritly bad traits of his persona. I'd say a bad trait of his was that be could be so blinded by his sense of honour to the point of unjustly condemning people for one "dishounorable" thing they did all their life. For example the way he treated Jaime after he had slew king Aerys. Solely from that action he concluded that Jaime must be dispicable. Not a very good trait I'd say.

[The Wolves]

For example the way he treated Jaime after he had slew king Aerys. Solely from that action he concluded that Jaime must be dispicable. Not a very good trait I'd say.

Jaime proceeded to break his vows to the King for almost two decades. His very actions plunges the realm into a civil war. Jaime also pushes Ned's son from a window, actively searches for Ned's daughter to try and cut off her hand than Jaime cuts down a bunch of men to try to get to and kill Ned's first born son.

Ned's conclusion that Jaime was a oathbreaking piece of shit was spot on and than some, Ned and his thoughts or opinions about Jaime is something that should never be held against him because he was 1billion percent correct about Jaime Lannister.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

A lot of people are talking about stupid things he did, not inheritly bad traits of his persona. I'd say a bad trait of his was that be could be so blinded by his sense of honour to the point of unjustly condemning people for one "dishounorable" thing they did all their life. For example the way he treated Jaime after he had slew king Aerys. Solely from that action he concluded that Jaime must be dispicable. Not a very good trait I'd say.

What Jaime did was despicable. Either you realize what a monster your King is the moment he starts burning innocent people (arguable whether it applies to Brandon, but to Rickard it does) and raping his wife, or you hold your vows in higher regard, which means that you try to protect the King, from himself as well as from others. And don't tell me Jaime had no choice if he wanted to safe KL - if he wanted he could have easily captured frightened old Aerys and somehow rendered him incapable of giving any commands, especially given how abandoned he was.

But instead, Jaime betrayed his ideals and then his King, both at times when it was most convenient to him. And Eddard knows all that.

[Brightstar_]

What Jaime did was despicable. Either you realize what a monster your King is the moment he starts burning innocent people (arguable whether it applies to Brandon, but to Rickard it does) and raping his wife, or you hold your vows in higher regard, which means that you try to protect the King, from himself as well as from others. And don't tell me Jaime had no choice if he wanted to safe KL - if he wanted he could have easily captured frightened old Aerys and somehow rendered him incapable of giving any commands, especially given how abandoned he was.

But instead, Jaime betrayed his ideals and then his King, both at times when it was most convenient to him. And Eddard knows all that.

You see things rather simple do you. Of course he already knew Aerys was mad, but it's one thing to be torturing people and another to plan to murder half a million people and command you to go kill your own father. Of course it wasn't very "honourable" what he did, but it was arguably the right thing to do. There is a difference between the two, and I believe Ned's weakness to be that he doesn't recognize that at all. And let's not turn this into a jaime love or hate discussion, this isn't the thread for that.

[Northern light]

You see things rather simple do you. Of course he already knew Aerys was mad, but it's one thing to be torturing people and another to plan to murder half a million people and command you to go kill your own father. Of course it wasn't very "honourable" what he did, but it was arguably the right thing to do. There is a difference between the two, and I believe Ned's weakness to be that he doesn't recognize that at all. And let's not turn this into a jaime love or hate discussion, this isn't the thread for that.

In the eyes of Westeros society it wasn't Jaime's right to kill Aerys as his kingsguard. If he had just rendered Aerys incapable of giving any commands I do believe people including Ned would be much more forgiving.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

You see things rather simple do you. Of course he already knew Aerys was mad, but it's one thing to be torturing people and another to plan to murder half a million people and command you to go kill your own father. Of course it wasn't very "honourable" what he did, but it was arguably the right thing to do. There is a difference between the two, and I believe Ned's weakness to be that he doesn't recognize that at all. And let's not turn this into a jaime love or hate discussion, this isn't the thread for that.

Right, this isn't the place to discuss it, and I don't really see much to discuss. However, you can't blame Ned for judging Jaime after the way he found him. Jaime certainly didn't make any effort to look like a man who thinks that he committed a great crime for the greater good. That's the very least that can be said about him.

In the eyes of Westeros society it wasn't Jaime's right to kill Aerys as his kingsguard. If he had just rendered Aerys incapable of giving any commands I do believe people including Ned would be much more forgiving.

:agree: Ned had no more reasons to assume that Jaime did what he did only to save the city, than all of Westeros has reasons to assume that the Red Wedding was an act of self-defense against Northmen that turned into bloodthirsty wolves.

[north of the wall]

I don't think. a negative trait got him killed though. Being trusting, honorable, and naive towards the game are not negative personality traits. These are all the qualities that made Ned a nice guy.

I believe negative traits to be things people don't like about someone... so for the sake of this I would say Ned's negative traits are not being warm and open with Cat. Deceptive with Jon (despite there being good reason) and having a bias against certain people due to their families actions (Theon, Lannisters, etc)

[Thucydides]

What Jaime did was despicable. Either you realize what a monster your King is the moment he starts burning innocent people (arguable whether it applies to Brandon, but to Rickard it does) and raping his wife, or you hold your vows in higher regard, which means that you try to protect the King, from himself as well as from others. And don't tell me Jaime had no choice if he wanted to safe KL - if he wanted he could have easily captured frightened old Aerys and somehow rendered him incapable of giving any commands, especially given how abandoned he was.

But instead, Jaime betrayed his ideals and then his King, both at times when it was most convenient to him. And Eddard knows all that.

I agree with a lot of this. Plus, Jaime seems to take some masochistic pleasure in imagining himself as the special object of Eddard's disdain.

But there are a few areas where I view things somewhat differently. Jaime protests to Catelyn that he had no concern for the murder of Rickard and Brandon Stark, but at the same time he flippantly throws his "Kingslayer" status at her out of spite. We learn from his conversation with Brienne that Jaime had been deeply conflicted about how to reconcile all of his vows, much as he had expressed during his conversation with Catelyn.

From the way that Jaime describes the murder of Rickard and Brandon, it seems to me that he was troubled by it. He was surrounded by the Kingsguard, strong figures of authority and respect and influence. If Jaime had acted, he would been defying these figures. I am reminded of the infamous Milgram experiment, in which subjects were willing to inflict terrible pain on others provided that they felt that they were simply following orders. Jaime stands idly by watching a deep injustice because he is commanded to. It's a very human thing to do, which makes it even more tragic. The Milgram experiment shows that each of us are likely to have done the exact same thing.

The remarkable thing is that Jaime moved passed this. By killing Mad Aerys, Jaime repudiates the authority commanding him to allow the infliction of pain and suffering. The deep irony is that the act by which Jaime reaching an uncommon level of moral awareness is the exact same act that leads to his moral decay. Jaime is viewed as a moral dwarf, a role that he embraces, taking Tyrion's advice (given to Jon Snow) to heart: "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you" (AGoT p957).

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

His biggest character flaw, IMO, is his "self-esteem" if you will. He seldom expresses respect for anyone, warheroes and dead guys excluded. And after my 2nd reread I noticed how he talks to almost everyone with contempt, apart from his friend and family. Sean Bean's Ned isn't quite as cold as book Ned, but the way he speaks to Jaime in the Throneroom is pretty much how he speaks to everyone, vile contempt. Am I making any sense? so I guess it's his Honor that's his flaw, but not because it's exploited but because he's so Holier than thou about it. I really didn't like Ned that 2nd time I read aGoT

This is the guy who pitied Cersei. He is a saint.

The only people he shows contempt for IIRC are the Lannisters, the Mountain, Varys, Littlefinger (all for good reasons) Jorah and Marq Piper.

[The Fallen]

There is nothing wrong with the desire for Ned to take up the Handship in general (aka why Luwin supported it also),instead the problemx came about because Ned decided to blunder around as Hand rather then use his position and even attempt to play the game. Furthermore, LF gave Ned numerous hints not to trust(including IIRC telling him directly) that Ned should have been able put two plus two together by himself then to continue to believe Catelyn would want him to trust LF even after those hints.

But Ned never trusted LF. There are plenty of times where Ned thinks about he can't trust LF. Just because LF was the last man he could turn to when the shit hit the fan doesn't mean Ned trusted him. At that point it was LF or bust.

His biggest character flaw, IMO, is his "self-esteem" if you will. He seldom expresses respect for anyone, warheroes and dead guys excluded. And after my 2nd reread I noticed how he talks to almost everyone with contempt, apart from his friend and family. Sean Bean's Ned isn't quite as cold as book Ned, but the way he speaks to Jaime in the Throneroom is pretty much how he speaks to everyone, vile contempt. Am I making any sense? so I guess it's his Honor that's his flaw, but not because it's exploited but because he's so Holier than thou about it. I really didn't like Ned that 2nd time I read aGoT

It's not that he has contempt for everyone. Ned is just serious. He's Hand of the King, he's got serious responsibilities, unlike LF and Renly, who can bullshit all day.

The king died this morning. Of course Cersei would've made her move the same day. That's Royal Succession 101 - you move as fast as possible to put the heir in charge to minimize the potential problems. Especially when there's a good reason to expect challenges of the legitimacy of the new king.

Sansa gave her the head's up. And the killing started within a couple of hours. Clearly, Cersei was caught by surprise.

And the bells didn't begin tolling until several days after Robert died. Shouldn't the immediacy of danger have prompted them to announce Robert's death, and thus Joffrey's coronation, earlier?

A lot of people are talking about stupid things he did, not inheritly bad traits of his persona. I'd say a bad trait of his was that be could be so blinded by his sense of honour to the point of unjustly condemning people for one "dishounorable" thing they did all their life. For example the way he treated Jaime after he had slew king Aerys. Solely from that action he concluded that Jaime must be dispicable. Not a very good trait I'd say.

You have to admit that's a pretty big thing. Should we not hold John Wilkes Booth in contempt? He only did that one dishonorable thing.

This is the guy who pitied Cersei. He is a saint.

The only people he shows contempt for IIRC are the Lannisters, the Mountain, Varys, Littlefinger (all for good reasons) Jorah and Marq Piper.

Marq Piper?!

Spelling.

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Marq Piper?!

Spelling.

“Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that,” Ser Marq Piper snapped. He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned’s taste, though a fast friend of Catelyn’s brother, Edmure Tully.

Not exactly contempt but he definitely has a low opinion of him. I'm not holding this against Ned at all though. People are entitled to dislike certain people and I sure as hell don't think it's a pattern with Ned to show disdain to everyone.

[Sansa_Stark]

Ned thought he liked Tohbo mott or whatever and he was a mere smith

[The Fallen]

“Even Lannisters are not so blind stupid as that,” Ser Marq Piper snapped. He was a swaggering bantam rooster of a youth, too young and too hot-blooded for Ned’s taste, though a fast friend of Catelyn’s brother, Edmure Tully.

Not exactly contempt but he definitely has a low opinion of him. I'm not holding this against Ned at all though. People are entitled to dislike certain people and I sure as hell don't think it's a pattern with Ned to show disdain to everyone.

Ha! That's hilarious. I truly don't remember that line.

[Skagosi High Chef]

Naivety

[Snowmelter]

The inflexablity of his code of honor. It is sad, too, because he is the kind of man people should look up to. Sadly, in Westeros as in the real world, that sort of thing never goes unpunished.

[Queen of Whores]

Ned thought he liked Tohbo mott or whatever and he was a mere smith

Yeah I always thought that the people Ned showed contempt of lack of patience towards kind of earned it in one way or another. He was never rude or condescending to anyone that was a generally good person. I still remember the description early in aGoT where it was said every day he would have dinner or supper or something with a different person from Winterfell, whether it be a lord or blacksmith, and he would listen to them politely and patiently. This was the moment I realized I loved Ned as a character.

[Florina Laufeyson]

ITT: People confuse honor with being stubborn. Thats the negative trait in Ned. Being stubborn.

[KingRhaegar]

Ned's biggest negative trait is his rigid sense of morality. Doing the right thing is noble but it almost never comes with applause, meanwhile the bad guys get ahead because they don't shackle themselves to the rules. Faced with Robert's death Ned should have simply fled back to Winterfell, his seat of power, and decided what to do from there.

His life wasn't what he was trying to protect, he wanted to do what he could in the most moral way. And what are our lives worth if they have no morality and we die knowing we did wrong? Ned showing Cersei mercy was not a mistake, it may have been his most courageous act. He died knowing he gave her a chance like any human being deserves. His biggest regret was probably lying that Joff was the true heir at Baelor's Sept, that didn't help anyone.

[Minsc]

But Ned never trusted LF. There are plenty of times where Ned thinks about he can't trust LF. Just because LF was the last man he could turn to when the shit hit the fan doesn't mean Ned trusted him. At that point it was LF or bust.

Ned could have easily turned to Renly, and even if he didn't trust LF he did continually rely on him.

Sansa gave her the head's up. And the killing started within a couple of hours. Clearly, Cersei was caught by surprise.

And the bells didn't begin tolling until several days after Robert died. Shouldn't the immediacy of danger have prompted them to announce Robert's death, and thus Joffrey's coronation, earlier?

I doubt Sansa was the one who informed her of Robert's death, especially seeing how Robert wasn't dead when Sansa went to Cersei. In contrast, the killing only began to occur after Robert's death meaning Cersei only fully moved after Robert's death thus when she no longer had to worry about Robert's interference.

Funeral bells are not required to announce Robert's death, as seen how Joffrey had already began pledges of loyalty at the throne room even before Ned's arrest.