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Who do you like more? Sansa or Arya?


The Imperator

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You are saying that Sansa is passive is not supported by the text, nor is the idea of her beiing less perceptive than sister or that her actions of going to Cersei are disloyal? You say that none of this is supported by the text, is this correct?

Yes. That is what I am saying. Sansa's inherent passivity is not supported by the text. The text does not support a view that Arya is inherently more perceptive than Sansa. And the text most certainly does not support the notion that when Sansa appealed to Cersei it was either disloyal or a betrayal. All of which I and others responded to more than adequately for the last 10 pages. With specific examples.

You can hate the fact that she went to Cersei as well, and hate the fact that it took a beheading to realize these people were enemies. But stop trying to make the unsupported argument that this was betrayal or disloyalty. You can hate her for what she did, but for the love of god, if you are going to argue on the forum about this, please try to be reasonable about this by keeping a consistent perspective from which to judge here, and stop refusing to acknowledge that certain opinions you have are misconceptions when they've been shown false.

And yes, it is astounding that you won't recognize the Ned-Sansa parallel. That you excuse Ned for putting undeserved faith in Robert because of their history despite the fact that Ned sees Cersei has more pull with him than Ned, has almost 2 decades of politics under his belt, actually puts his family in danger, actually kills the damn direwolf himself despite knowing the truth and how easily he could have saved it, and most damningly perhaps, has already seen the very same issues that caused a major rift between him and Robert in the past crop up again means that you are letting your hatred get the better of your senses. That you find Sansa's blindness, the girl who's major "life experience" to that point came from songs, more worthy of condemnation as betrayal or disloyalty is patently illogical.

The fact that your arguments are based on false information and irrational logic is what makes them false and irrational. My disagreement has nothing to do with it.

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Okay, just so I understand.

You are saying that Sansa is passive is not supported by the text, nor is the idea of her beiing less perceptive than sister or that her actions of going to Cersei are disloyal? You say that none of this is supported by the text, is this correct?

I never blamed her for her imprisonment, for someone who claims to be so big on subtle differences I blame her for NOT TRYING or EVEN THINKING about how she might escape it. There is a difference as I pointed out with Arya who in her POVs is often weighing actions and thinking of ways that she might escape various situations even, if as with Harrenhall, she initially decides she can't get out.

I simply refuse to agree that your parallels are an accurate representation and I have given my reasons. If you want to make that out as some kind of irrational, hatefilled ranting and a refusal to see how obviously Ned and Robert's relationship is just like the one with Sansa and Cersei, that is your choice. Me not agreeing with you doesn't make my reasoning false or irrational.

Do you think it wise then that Ned took both of his daughters to king's landing to investigate the possible murder of the man who was previously in his position? Do you also think it was wise for him to come to confront Cersei without sharing his worry with others, and instead started to seek help only after Robert's on his deathbed. He noticed that all around him were Lannister men andthat there loyalty was not with the throne. If he did not know Cersei, he should have known Tywin. Would that man really have given up his grandchildren's seats to the crown, incest or not? This was not an affair that would end cleanly. Sansa made a mistake, and was shortsighted naĂŻve and willingly blind to the ugliness of people around her, and that is how she was Ned's daughter. She has paid and she is learning. As for her ability to be active there has been no opportunity. As other posters have said, more eloquently than I, she is being watched and she represent a valuable investment to the Lannisters. Arya had the advantage of exploring the tunnels, and Syrio Forel giving her the head start, in the city street she had Yoren to help smuggle her out. What did Sansa have? Drunk knights that were giving her the creeps ( I speak of both the Hound and Dontos). Even going to the Gods' wood is a risk for Sansa. During the fight with Stannis at the door the queen accuses her of going there to pray for their downfall, revealing that Sansa's paranoia is justified. She is being watched constantly.

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Come on, seriously-- disloyal? I'm sorry, but that is really straining credibility.

Sansa was not disloyal. Some of these criticisms are acting as though she was gunning for Ned's beheading. It's not disloyalty or even betrayal so much as simple disobedience. You know, like how Bran disobeyed his parents, climbed the tower and became crippled as a result. I have no idea how the betrayal/ disloyal argument gets traction when I've yet to see Bran be accused of "disloyalty" for climbing that tower. Or-- god forbid-- Arya for disobeying her parents and blowing off her responsibilities when the Lannisters visited.

Disobedience, everyone-- the operative word here is disobedience.

I'm a good 5 pages behind, and someone may have pointed this out, but Ned actually gave up forbidding Bran to climb.

ETA: Nevermind, I'm about 8 pages behind.

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I think you were right, we're done here. It's not worth it to me to go through yet again and give the multiple examples of Sansa's passive nature that are in the text, in all of the books, or even throughout this thread, or of the differences in Arya and Sansa's perceptiveness about people and situations, that are in all the books, and i think we've gone over the disloyalty issue...it's an opinion, you want to say that it is an invalid opinion, but I don't agree, you seem to think you can argue as an authority and say that things are "false" which you believe are not accurate interpretations, but that isn't false, that is a difference of opinion. If I said, for example, that Sansa hated her father, that would be objectively false, because there is nothing in the text that supports it and massive evidence against it, so it would be an unsupportable opinion.



Sansa going to a woman who had her wolf killed, whose brother had her family's retainers killed and injured her father to spill secret plans when she was told not to tell anyone if i remember correctly as being disloyal can't reasonably be construed as "false"...you can disagree and say this interpretation is too harsh, as you have done, but to say it's irrational or false or unsupportable is not arguing fairly.


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Settle down Butter bumps... you made me love you. Just not Sansa. I won't nit-pick your argument, it's a valid one. I have always thought Ned's actions concerning the Joff/wolf incident was one of the biggest mistakes in the book, and he knowingly put his family in danger from that point on. It was also foolish of Ned to give his daughters any warning about leaving KL. Sansa running to Cersei is not my main problem with her. When she said to Sansa that (Myca) attacked Joff and that it was her fault (Arya's) that lady died, it showed me certain things about her character. Sansa was always mean to Arya, yet Arya loved Sansa more than Sansa loved Arya in there private thoughts later on. Sansa does have some good qualities, at this point, but some of her flaws will lead her down a slimy path, IMO. She doesn't own responsibility.


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Do you think it wise then that Ned took both of his daughters to king's landing to investigate the possible murder of the man who was previously in his position? Do you also think it was wise for him to come to confront Cersei without sharing his worry with others, and instead started to seek help only after Robert's on his deathbed. He noticed that all around him were Lannister men andthat there loyalty was not with the throne. If he did not know Cersei, he should have known Tywin. Would that man really have given up his grandchildren's seats to the crown, incest or not? This was not an affair that would end cleanly. Sansa made a mistake, and was shortsighted naĂŻve and willingly blind to the ugliness of people around her, and that is how she was Ned's daughter. She has paid and she is learning. As for her ability to be active there has been no opportunity. As other posters have said, more eloquently than I, she is being watched and she represent a valuable investment to the Lannisters. Arya had the advantage of exploring the tunnels, and Syrio Forel giving her the head start, in the city street she had Yoren to help smuggle her out. What did Sansa have? Drunk knights that were giving her the creeps ( I speak of both the Hound and Dontos). Even going to the Gods' wood is a risk for Sansa. During the fight with Stannis at the door the queen accuses her of going there to pray for their downfall, revealing that Sansa's paranoia is justified. She is being watched constantly.

I don't have the book in front of me, but he should have waited to confront Cersei until the girls were out of KL, for that matter, he should have put her under house arrest then and there. There are a lot of things he could have done. He could have put her on a ship himself before Robert got back. He also should have taken up Renlys offer.

There is no doubt Ned made in hindsight some mistakes in under estimated his foes, its also true that "fate" conspired mightly against him. His daughter spills the beans. The king dies. Renly leaves. Littlefinger betrays him. Those are a lot of unforseen occurences to all happen.

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Arya. She's damaged and she's in a very dark place right now and it's unlikely she'll ever fully recover, but I can understand where she comes from. Poor girl.

I tried to like Sansa, I really did, and maybe I still will in the future, aftell all, the series hasn't ended yet, but at present I just can't get over her willful blindness in AGoT. Some people say she's relatable for them, well, not for me. When I was a nine-year-old, my pet bunny was killed by the neighbour's dog due an unfortunate coincidence (no ill intent). I remember how I reacted then, and I'm sure how I would have reacted if someone had my blameless pet (whether it was a bunny, cat, or dog) viciously killed. It is a thousand times more likely I would have attempted to scratch their eyes out, then that I would have forgiven them because I've got a crush on their son, and I certainly would never trust them again.

But no, Sansa, as she is of AGoT, no. Sansa sees Joffrey uncover his true self, (i.e. a craven sadistic piece of vomit) when he bullies a common boy, who cannot possibly defend himself, and later her little sister as well when she wants to help the boy. The sister's direwolf saves the sister from heavy injuries and runs away. After the incident, the craven sadist's mother has Sansa's completely innocent direwolf beheaded and even remarks she would like its pelt for herself. At first Sansa is angry with her, but then she forgives her because her piece of vomit is so beautiful. It's her sister who caused the direwolf's death now. The common boy has been killed for his involvement in the incident. Sansa never gives a fig. Her prince is beautiful and everything will like in songs once they marry. WTF Next, her father was injured and could have died, his men were cut down in the streets. The father tells his daughters that they've got to leave because of what happened. He fears for their safety. He tells them not to speak of it. But Sansa the birdbrain isn't overjoyed she won't be forced to marry the sadistic piece of crap anymore, oh no, quite the opposite. She goes to the sadist's malicious mother, who as Sansa well knows already made her suffer once, and spills everything she knows of her father's plan to her. OMG

I really hope GRRM doesn't think that an average eleven-years-old "girly girl" would act like this. Even a sheltered 11-year-old. I mean, I am a "girly girl", I was sheltered during my childhood, and I've never been a genius, but I never lacked common sense and since early age I usually could tell the right from the wrong. Sansa's age would excuse her if she was like seven, but eleven's way too much for the behaviour she displayed in AGoT.

So as far as I am concerned, GRRM really overdid it with her "naivity".

100% agree also using her age is a very poor excuse she is not the only young one. I am holding out hope for her in the remaining books .

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He tells her he's sending her home for her safety.

He tells her not to tell anyone.

She goes to the Queen...who had her wolf killed, which by the way, at one point she tells her sister she wishes she had been killed instead of Lady...and tells her about the plans.

So, this is just your standard disobediance, like not doing your homework? Like Arya not doing her sewing. Is that way of it?

How irritating.

What part of "Sansa knew she was doing something wrong, but had no idea the exact weight of what she did." do you not understand? Sansa did not know why Ned was telling her to stay put. Sansa didnt WANT to believe Cersei was responsible for Lady. (a definite flaw of hers.) She doesnt know shit!

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How irritating.

What part of "Sansa knew she was doing something wrong, but had no idea the exact weight of what she did." do you not understand? Sansa did not know why Ned was telling her to stay put. Sansa didnt WANT to believe Cersei was responsible for Lady. (a definite flaw of hers.) She doesnt know shit!

Who ever said she knew the result was going to be her father's arrest and murder, septa's murder, murder of every other Stark person in the Red Keep? Not me.

You are attributing an argument to me I never made, I have never said she had any inkling of the scope of damage she was doing, why would I? She didn't. Her lack of understanding of the gravity of the action she was taking does not make it less disloyal though, she betrayed her father's trust in her. The fact that she never expected anything but Sansa gets her way doesn't make what she did not disloyal or a betrayal of her father's trust. I dunno it seems easy to grasp for me.

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... and I'm sure how I would have reacted if someone had my blameless pet (whether it was a bunny, cat, or dog) viciously killed. It is a thousand times more likely I would have attempted to scratch their eyes out, then that I would have forgiven them because I've got a crush on their son, and I certainly would never trust them again.

But how would you react if your father carried out the did?... I think Sansa misdirected her anger to Ned instead of the Lannisters because of that...

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Mod note: quit citing other posters, individually and/or collectively, for how they feel about particular characters. I am closing this thread for length and to point out that if you can't play nicely, my inner kindergarten teacher is happy to hand out timeouts.


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