"You are no son of mine" Tyrion Targ support

[oursisthefury69]

1. First Jon Snow chapter ever-"And for a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king"

2. White patches amongst what is suppose to be golden lannister hair.

3. Mismatched eyes-One that's supposedly black but may be dark purple-white hair and purple eyes being targ traits.

4. Compared to Jaimie and Cersie's pure lannister traits that resulted from tywin and Joanna being first cousins.

5. Speaking of, why does Tywin being the astute politician and strategist he is, marry a first cousin instead of creating an alliance, at a time were house lannister was at an all time low in respect? Perhaps love, or he doesn't care less he's tywin he does what he wants, but either way this strange match serves to deter whatwould be much stranger physical signs of tyrion not being tywins if he weren't already lannister no matter what-Plot device

6. Tywins last words ever-"You are no son of mine"

7. The potential parallel of Tyrion and Jaimie killing eachothers fathers; as well as the cop pout of saving Georges favorite character from being a kinslayer.

8. Tyrions innate knowledge/fascination/dreams regarding dragons. He's the only character to not be scared shitless from the dragon skulls in the dungeons so far as well.

9. Tyrion, Jon, and Dany's mothers all dying child birthing three of the main characters within a 10 year span of each other(Theoretically-1.Rhaella and Aerys didn't have many relations nor overall children, but the third child was too much for her to survive. 2. The same was said for rhaegars wife Elia, who couldn't bare the strain of a 3rd child, which resulted in him seeking lyanna who consequently died child birthing. 3. Third and most theoretical- Joanna who was strong enough to previously birth twins, couldn't handle birthing the halfman.)

10. Dany,Jon, and Tyrion per the opening pages are essentiall declared(and later proven) to be the 3 main characters of "A Dance with Dragons" which isn't quoincidience.

11. The only character mentioned and proven to also have mismatched eyes ever was another targ bastard-Sheira Seastar.

12. Semi-prophetic dream tyrion has in Dance -seeing barristan and bittersteel (Dany and GC) coming to blows.

13. Barristan declaring Aerys lust for Joanna; which obviously if ever wouldn't have been fully acted upon on the wedding night.

14. Tyrions physical mutations could be a result of the incest riddled genetics of the targs manifesting themselves, I've seen a lot of people suggest as an alternative he somehow absorbed and unknown unborn twin of his; which if anything should make you think he's more so targ- considering maelys the mostorous and his mutation.

15. The friendship and respect developed between Jon-Aemon-and Tyrion in book 1, as well as tyrions knowledge of the threats faced by the Nights watch.

16. GRRM's love for "Bastards, cripple d's, and broken things" Has lead me to believe that tyrions saddled forging for Bran may foreshadow tyrion riding a dragon he saddles himself, (being warged by bran perhaps) and I think Tyrion is the third "head" regardless if that means rider. Rhaegar looks at dany in the Hotu while acknowledging his son is tptwp and the first head, see's her as the second, and says ":there must be one more" Who else could it be?

[-Ghost-]

Euron has mismatched eyes. Why wouldnt Tyrion know his own eye color?

[The guy from the Vale]

GRRM said Tyrion was named by his father. Since I can't imagine Tywin getting his son named by Aerys, Tyrion is Tywin's son :P

[Iona]

I'm not sure point 2 is entirely correct. I thought he had like really pale blond hair (not Lannister gold at all) with some black hairs. Since you are so eager in you pro-TargTyrion views, I find it odd that you've missed that.

[LyrnaSnowBunnyAvenger]

He's the only character to not be scared shitless from the dragon skulls in the dungeons so far as well.

If I recall correctly, Arya wasn't scared of them either. She was a bit startled the first time she saw them, but really thought nothing of them after it. Certainly wasn't scared shitless.

[Aerys Ahai Reborn]

GRRM said Tyrion was named by his father. Since I can't imagine Tywin getting his son named by Aerys, Tyrion is Tywin's son :P

5. Since all of their mothers died, who gave Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen and Tyrion Lannister their names?

Mothers can name a child before birth, or during, or after, even while they are dying. Dany was most like named by her mother, Tyrion by his father, Jon by Ned.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1202

Notice how he doesn't say Jon was named by his father (because Ned isn't his father).

[Skagosi High Chef]

Point 14 is way off too. He would have less genetic anomalies from a Targ/Lannister coupling than a Targ/Targ coupling. Tywin and Johanna being closely related would be more likely, yet dwarfism of course can happen between two completely unrelated parents. I like Tyrion too, but everyone I like doesn't have to be a secret Targ, who will get a dragon and rule the world. The secret Targ thing is over used so bad.

[House Pintur]

The biggest issue with Tyrion being a targ is that Tywin would not flinch at killing the bastard of the man who had sex with his wife. No fucking way Tywin would stand for that

[Light a wight tonight]

They should number these Tyrion Targaryen topics the way they do with R+L=J or PtoP.

Do we have any record of huge fires during the time frame Tyrion was conceived? It is known that Aerys was impotent unless there's a conflagration around.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

9. Tyrion, Jon, and Dany's mothers all dying child birthing three of the main characters within a 10 year span of each other(Theoretically-1.Rhaella and Aerys didn't have many relations nor overall children, but the third child was too much for her to survive. 2. The same was said for rhaegars wife Elia, who couldn't bare the strain of a 3rd child, which resulted in him seeking lyanna who consequently died child birthing. 3. Third and most theoretical- Joanna who was strong enough to previously birth twins, couldn't handle birthing the halfman.)

I thought this was clever as an observation.

GRRM said Tyrion was named by his father. Since I can't imagine Tywin getting his son named by Aerys, Tyrion is Tywin's son :P

Yup this :)

They should number these Tyrion Targaryen topics the way they do with R+L=J or PtoP.

Do we have any record of huge fires during the time frame Tyrion was conceived? It is known that Aerys was impotent unless there's a conflagration around.

Yes! It is said in all of the posts about TtST (see that...I gave it an acronym), that Tyrion's multifaceted dysfunctional relationship with his family would be completely undermined by them not being related.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

1. First Jon Snow chapter ever-"And for a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king"

3. Mismatched eyes-One that's supposedly black but may be dark purple-white hair and purple eyes being targ traits.

6. Tywins last words ever-"You are no son of mine"

7. The potential parallel of Tyrion and Jaimie killing eachothers fathers; as well as the cop pout of saving Georges favorite character from being a kinslayer.

8. Tyrions innate knowledge/fascination/dreams regarding dragons. He's the only character to not be scared shitless from the dragon skulls in the dungeons so far as well.

9. Tyrion, Jon, and Dany's mothers all dying child birthing three of the main characters within a 10 year span of each other(Theoretically-1.Rhaella and Aerys didn't have many relations nor overall children, but the third child was too much for her to survive. 2. The same was said for rhaegars wife Elia, who couldn't bare the strain of a 3rd child, which resulted in him seeking lyanna who consequently died child birthing. 3. Third and most theoretical- Joanna who was strong enough to previously birth twins, couldn't handle birthing the halfman.)

10. Dany,Jon, and Tyrion per the opening pages are essentiall declared(and later proven) to be the 3 main characters of "A Dance with Dragons" which isn't quoincidience.

15. The friendship and respect developed between Jon-Aemon-and Tyrion in book 1, as well as tyrions knowledge of the threats faced by the Nights watch.

Some of your points got already addressed. My comment on others:

1. It could mean everything and nothing. BTW, the Lannisters were kings for millennia, way longer than the Targs.

3. Is it said in the books that Tyrion's black eye "could be dark purple", or is it you stretching things a little to make them fit?

6. Which were pretty much the same as his parting words for Jaime. Apparently that's something that Tywin says to his children when he's disappointed.

7. I don't see it as an argument "for" a Tyrion Targaryen. That cop-out would cheapen the whole drama.

8. Dragons are fascinating. Hence, Tyrion's fascination with them is justified, whether he has Targ genes or not.

9. "Death in childbirth" is not one of Targaryen trademarked traits.

10. Another argument against: that would make ASOIAF a Targaryen family story. It certainly doesn't feel like one, though.

15. Is friendship "genetic"? And even if it was, it certainly isn't within the Targaryen family. That's been obvious since we met Aerion and Egg.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

1. First Jon Snow chapter ever-"And for a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king"

"I know," Jon said. He rose. Standing, he was taller than the dwarf. It made him feel strange.

...

When he [Tyrion] opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment, Tyrion Lannister stood as tall as a king.

How tall is a king? What's the measurement? How tall does a shadow have to be before it's as tall as a king? Is it actually an oblique way of saying that at that point, Tyrion's shadow was as tall as Jon?

[Lord_Tyrell]

Tyrion being a Targaryen is the absolute worst and most insulting theory in the series. It ruins his and Tywin's relationship, merely making Tywin the evil step father. It also lets Tyrion completely off the hook for murdering his own father, and Tyrion would be glad to hear that be is not Lord Tywin's true son, since through his mother he still has Lannister blood. I just really despise this theory.

[Lord of Dragonstone]

14. Tyrions physical mutations could be a result of the incest riddled genetics of the targs manifesting themselves, I've seen a lot of people suggest as an alternative he somehow absorbed and unknown unborn twin of his; which if anything should make you think he's more so targ- considering maelys the mostorous and his mutation.

Are there any other dwarf Targs that we know about? If not then that's basically another thing to cross off your list.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Are there any other dwarf Targs that we know about? If not then that's basically another thing to cross off your list.

No.

[Dany Girl]

Tyrion being a Targaryen is the absolute worst and most insulting theory in the series. It ruins his and Tywin's relationship, merely making Tywin the evil step father. It also lets Tyrion completely off the hook for murdering his own father, and Tyrion would be glad to hear that be is not Lord Tywin's true son, since through his mother he still has Lannister blood. I just really despise this theory.

:agree: the reason I loath this theory so much is not some issue with not wanting Tyrion to be able to ride a dragon/have any sort of random claim to the IT. It's because it undermines the entire purpose of Tyrion's relationship with Tywin, which is one of his major arcs and a fundamental building block to his character. Removing that relationship, even if only genetically since Tywin still raised Tyrion, would cheapen his story, be a cheap cop out and even uundermine Jon's arc tremendously. I feel like it makes no sense from a story telling perspective. I would be very disappointed in GRRM if it did turn out to be true, I think he's better than that. Having so many secret heirs and switched father's would make the impact so much less important as well.

[Rysler]

The biggest issue with Tyrion being a targ is that Tywin would not flinch at killing the bastard of the man who had sex with his wife. No fucking way Tywin would stand for that

I see a situation like "Promise me, Tywin", being possible on Joanna's deathbed. Tyrion's bastardness might also explain Tywin's hatred effectively. He raised him up as his own, even though he could've been all Randyll Tarly about it and arranged a fatal "accident".

I admit, I don't find this very probable either.

[Rooseman]

6. Tywins last words ever-"You are no son of mine"

And Tyrion's reply is "That's where you're wrong, father."

Tywin said the same thing to Jaime once, by the way.

So, are you suggesting that not only is Tyrion is not Tywin's, but that Tywin knew? Is there anyone who believes, that Tywin would have raised him up for any other reason than the knowledge that it was his own son?

If Tywin didn't know and you just assume it's foreshadowing: There's the scene between Genna and Jaime, where she says that Jaime definitely had the Lannister genes (there's some Kevan in him etc.), but Tyrion was Tywin's son.

So if you're going after quotes like that, you could more easily make a case that Jaime is a bastard, there's more textual support than for Tyrion...

Anyway, I hate this theory with a passion, for the same reasons Dany Girl mentioned. Tywin's and Tyrion's complex relationship just becomes way less interesting if it turns out they're not father and son. GRRM likes the human heart in conflict. They both have a big amount of hatred for each other, while being very similar in intellect and motivation as well. Their hate fits GRRM's style just so much better if they're indeed of one and the same blood.

and I think Tyrion is the third "head" regardless if that means rider. Rhaegar looks at dany in the Hotu while acknowledging his son is tptwp and the first head, see's her as the second, and says ":there must be one more" Who else could it be?

It's Jon. The secret Targaryen is Jon.

There's Rhaegar, Elia and a newborn Aegon, their second child. Because of the prophecy of the PTWP, he was led to believe that he has to have 3 children, which he couldn't get from Elia, which led to... you know the rest.

Keep in mind, that Daenerys probably hasn't read the books, and as far as I know she's not a regular on westeros.org. So she wouldn't know about R+L=J, and the information that "There must be one more" and "The dragon has 3 heads" while Rhaegar was talking about his second kid before (thereby referring to the existence of a third child of his) would be news to her.

16. GRRM's love for "Bastards, cripple d's, and broken things" Has lead me to believe that tyrions saddled forging for Bran may foreshadow tyrion riding a dragon he saddles himself, (being warged by bran perhaps)

That's actually a nice catch. But there are good reasons to believe, that you don't have to have Targaryen blood in order to mount a dragon. Not only TPaTQ, but also a SSM entry where GRRM explicitly said that the "third head of the dragon" doesn't have to be a Targaryen.

Even though I interpreted it, that he was referring to Aegon. Daenerys, Jon and Aegon are all dragons (and the only remaining dragon offspring we know of), but Aegon is a black dragon, not a red one.

[Valor_Rorghulis]

And Tyrion's reply is "That's where you're wrong, father."

Tywin said the same thing to Jaime once, by the way.

So, are you suggesting that not only is Tyrion is not Tywin's, but that Tywin knew? Is there anyone who believes, that Tywin would have raised him up for any other reason than the knowledge that it was his own son?

I think there is one very good reason - Tywin is very proud. I think he would rather the realm believed he sired a dwarf than another man slept with his wife.

Though personally I don't believe in the theory. I think Aerys would have told people if it were true

[Ser Lady Stark Martell]

I don't think Tywin meant "You are no son of mine" like that. Tyrion is not a Targaryen, I don't see any sense in this theory. I don't think Tywin would raise a dwarf as his son if he knew it wasn't his, especially since he hates Tyrion's "dwarfness" (?) so much.