Thoughts on Jon and Sansa

[Winnief]

Well, in that text, it also says that sometimes in Sansa's dreams there was even a little girl who looked like Arya. She clearly wants to rebuild a family in the image of the one she lost.

[Mourneblade]

Arya was rescued by Syrio and Yoren. And she almost starves to death on the streets after getting out of the Red Keep.

I mean, Arya did escape from Harrenhall all on her lonesome, but she had a lot more resources and freedom than Sansa did. Not to mention anonymity.

It is not about whether the choices are smart or even self preserving, it is about who is taking their own life in their hands, taking responsibility for themselves, with the consequences that go with that choice, and who is dancing to the strings of the puppeteer, always choosing the path of least resistance, shallow self reflection, with a total lack of holding herself accountable for her mistakes. I have re read Sansa's chapters and they are filled with sadness, but they are also the consequences of her actions.

[Mladen]

It is not about whether the choices are smart or even self preserving, it is about who is taking their own life in their hands, taking responsibility for themselves, with the consequences that go with that choice, and who is dancing to the strings of the puppeteer, always choosing the path of least resistance, shallow self reflection, with a total lack of holding herself accountable for her mistakes. I have re read Sansa's chapters and they are filled with sadness, but they are also the consequences of her actions.

Yes, I totally agree with you. Why would we blame the abuser when we have a victim to blame? Why would we read deep when we can easily create misconceptions regarding who did what? Of course, we have to forget half the series to make idiotic claims like "Sansa killed Ned" or "Sansa killed Lady". but, heck, who cares? We are free to ignore the entire text to make our opinion work. Then we came to even more (if possible) crazy idea that Sansa doesn't think of her family. I imagine reminiscing family in her every, and I repeat every POV chapter is not enough. Then of course, there is that nonsensical talk about passiveness. And then we see her doing many things. First, she wanted to kill Joffrey, than grabbed the first chance she got to escape from KL, then proactively betrayed Joffrey by telling Margaery and Olenna the truth, not because they manipulated her to do so, but because she pitied Margaery. Of course, speaking about parallels between her and her parents, they are all dancing to the strings of puppeteer. Choosing the path of least resistance? I imagine this is the talk about her wedding, where she actually resisted Tyrion and that wedding in the only way she could... Yes, some other would yell and scream and resist, but hey, Cersei made it rather clear what will happen... So, it wasn't the path of least resistance, it was the path of intelligence.

OP, nice analysis... Beside Tze, I remember Butterbumps did an amazing analysis of parallels between Jon and Sansa. If I am not mistaken, it could be found somewhere on Jon Snow Reread Project.

[Han Snow]

Shipping a brother and a sister (yes, they are siblings whether or not they share the same biological father) who have familial love for each other and never had a single romantic or sexual thought about each other? :huh: Makes the kind of sense that's not.

Have you heard of Westermarck effect?

"Bittersweet"? No, the word you're looking for is "absurd".

People amaze me with their wishes and views. Somehow the incest part of Dany and Jon in a romantic relationship is icky and bad and disgusting and people don't want to even think about something romantic between them while it's okay for Jon and Sansa (who are still cousins) to be together because... why not, right? It doesn't matter to them that all their lives these two thought they were brother and sister.

While I have no strong feelings on Dany and Jon if they ever decide to continue the Targaryen tradition of inter-family marriages, I most certainly do find it disgusting if such a union happened between Jon and Sansa. Dany and him never even met, so attraction might occur when and if they finally do, but Jon/Sansa would be just sick even for GRRM.

[Winnief]

Well, i understand why some find Sansa/Jon icky, (and it's not my preferred outcome, I must say.) because they're cousins, but fact is in those sort of medieval cultures marriages between first cousins were not at all unheard of. In fact they're pretty common in Westeros.

[David Selig]

Well, i understand why some find Sansa/Jon icky, (and it's not my preferred outcome, I must say.) because they're cousins, but fact is in those sort of medieval cultures marriages between first cousins were not at all unheard of. In fact they're pretty common in Westeros.

They are pretty common in most of the world right now and legal nearly everywhere.

[The Wolves]

Well, i understand why some find Sansa/Jon icky, (and it's not my preferred outcome, I must say.) because they're cousins, but fact is in those sort of medieval cultures marriages between first cousins were not at all unheard of. In fact they're pretty common in Westeros.

But Sansa and Jon's mentality is to think they are brother and sister(though half)I don't think they would get down like that, there feelings are strictly brotherly/sisterly

[Winnief]

But Sansa and Jon's mentality is to think they are brother and sister(though half)I don't think they would get down like that, there feelings are strictly brotherly/sisterly

And that is the best argument against them as a couple, I agree. Otherwise it might almost be the perfect dynastic match.

[Han Snow]

Well, i understand why some find Sansa/Jon icky, (and it's not my preferred outcome, I must say.) because they're cousins, but fact is in those sort of medieval cultures marriages between first cousins were not at all unheard of. In fact they're pretty common in Westeros.

But they were raised together believing that they were brother and sister. It would be different if it's a situation where Lord arranges for his daughter to marry her cousin who lives half a kingdom away in some castle and whom she has seen once on some occasion and doesn't even know him. That is why Dany Jon wouldn't be icky even though they are aunt and nephew. They are the same age, and they weren't raised in close family circuit. That is also why Cersei/Jaime is revolting and disturbing and seeing some people shipping them makes me question their sanity. Same with Rhaella/Aerys and all other Targs who married siblings with who they grew up with.

[Sages]

First cousins being married is not so terribly bad. I admit since Sansa And Jon were raised together it would be a little odd if they were to get married. But I don't think it's disgusting just because they grew up together in the same house. Tywin married a cousin.

[AlayneSnow]

Back to parallels in Jon and Sansa's journeys. They are both also referred to as birds throughout the books. Sansa is little bird, dove, and assumes the sigil of the mockingbird while Jon is a crow. I think this could be a significant connection between the two. It reminds me of the pomegranate parallel. ( I'm not discounting Bran's dreams but I can't recall if anyone gives him such a nickname.)

[The Holy Goat]

And that is the best argument against them as a couple, I agree. Otherwise it might almost be the perfect dynastic match.

I agree with this opinion, assuming R + L = J. The real problem I see with them getting togheter is the way they were raised, otherwise I have no problem with them being cousins, and actually think they could make eachother fairly happy, particularily after everything they've gone though.

Compare with Dany/Jon and why I find it far squickier = aunts and nephews are more closely related than cousins are, and Daenerys comes with extra baggage in genetics box due to being a Targaryen.

[Northernmonkey]

Be realistic - GRRM is not going to have Jon and Sansa get together. I wish people would stop talking about it.

[grand old duke of stark]

I'd say that Jon isn't entirely like Ned, he may have started of as arrogant and naive, but to me he certainly isn't naive anymore. Ned also wasn't naive, he was just too sure of the fact that all people will act with "the honourable thing to do" first in mind, and was disgusted by all people who played the game.

Actually, he wasn't sure of it; he knew the perils. That is why he tried to get his girls out of KL before making his move. But Sansa ran to Cersei and that put paid to Ned's timing. You are right that Ned was disgusted by the playing of the game; I think Jon is also dubious but understands the realpolitik aspects, especially once he becomes LC. Sansa is the one who thinks people are honourable and chivalrous and kind and so forth, even Cersei who was the instigator of Lady's death. Whilst the Game looked like it would make Sansa Queen, she was content, even interested in its twists and turns. I'm still suprised that even at the end of DWD Sansa is still interested in the Game, but now she's being schooled in it by LF. She hopes it's become her path to survival, but I suspect Jon and Ned would be appalled.

[The Wolves]

Actually, he wasn't sure of it; he knew the perils. That is why he tried to get his girls out of KL before making his move. But Sansa ran to Cersei and that put paid to Ned's timing. You are right that Ned was disgusted by the playing of the game; I think Jon is also dubious but understands the realpolitik aspects, especially once he becomes LC. Sansa is the one who thinks people are honourable and chivalrous and kind and so forth, even Cersei who was the instigator of Lady's death. Whilst the Game looked like it would make Sansa Queen, she was content, even interested in its twists and turns. I'm still suprised that even at the end of DWD Sansa is still interested in the Game, but now she's being schooled in it by LF. She hopes it's become her path to survival, but I suspect Jon and Ned would be appalled.

Sansa is not interested in the Game she never wanted a part of it, she thought something like "I never asked to play" when Littlefinger brought it up. Sansa is trying to survive and if playing the game will get her that than she's content to do it, it's not something she wants.

[para]

Have you heard of Westermarck effect?

Is there any evidence that the Targaryens in all of their enthusiastic sibling-boinking glory are subject to anything even remotely resembling a biologically-induced sibling-incest taboo? Because the Targs have been enthusiastic about it. Baelor the Blessed's sister ended up in the maidenvault because they were especially tempting to him. Targaryen-First Men hybrid Bloodraven was in a sordid love triangle with his sister and his brother. Etc etc.

In fact, all things considered, it might be even possible that the Targaryens might experience the opposite of the Westermarck Effect - that they are not merely not experience an aversion to people they have grown up with as romantic partners, but that they are actually more attracted to them than to regular people. After all, Baelor only locked his sisters away, not the rest of female Westeros.

So what evidence do we have, that if R+L=J, Jon will be subject to the Westermarck Effect? It won't be Lyanna's First Men genetics or else Bloodraven wouldn't have been into his sister. He could be nurtured and cultured to find incest icky but that would have nothing to do with the Westermarck Effect.

Sansa could experience the Westermarck Effect - or not. I think if Jon/Sansa was to happen, the most important thing would be for the reader to experience the Westermarck Effect vicariously anyway. Why was time to repulse the characters if you can repulse the readers instead?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I knew this was going to become a shipping debate! :lmao:

[Winnief]

Well, to get away from the shipping debate, do you think Sansa and Jon will be reunited in WoW or ADOS?

Since they're almost sure to meet up again sometime...

[Dreams and Prophecies]

Oops. Didn't meant to start the shipping debate. As i said, it's not my favorite outcome either and now that i think about it, it most likely won't happen.

That being said Sansa and Jon could reunite by the end of WoW or beginning of ADoS.

[The Holy Goat]

Well, to get away from the shipping debate, do you think Sansa and Jon will be reunited in WoW or ADOS?

Since they're almost sure to meet up again sometime...

I believe Jon and Sansa will reunite in the late TWOW, if they reunite at all. That would be an interesting meeting though. It would be the first time they've interacted 'on screen', and if they haven't meet with anyone else but Rickon yet it is likely to be very emotional.