Thoughts on Jon and Sansa

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Yes, I totally agree with you. Why would we blame the abuser when we have a victim to blame? Why would we read deep when we can easily create misconceptions regarding who did what? Of course, we have to forget half the series to make idiotic claims like "Sansa killed Ned" or "Sansa killed Lady". but, heck, who cares? We are free to ignore the entire text to make our opinion work. Then we came to even more (if possible) crazy idea that Sansa doesn't think of her family. I imagine reminiscing family in her every, and I repeat every POV chapter is not enough. Then of course, there is that nonsensical talk about passiveness. And then we see her doing many things. First, she wanted to kill Joffrey, than grabbed the first chance she got to escape from KL, then proactively betrayed Joffrey by telling Margaery and Olenna the truth, not because they manipulated her to do so, but because she pitied Margaery. Of course, speaking about parallels between her and her parents, they are all dancing to the strings of puppeteer. Choosing the path of least resistance? I imagine this is the talk about her wedding, where she actually resisted Tyrion and that wedding in the only way she could... Yes, some other would yell and scream and resist, but hey, Cersei made it rather clear what will happen... So, it wasn't the path of least resistance, it was the path of intelligence.

OP, nice analysis... Beside Tze, I remember Butterbumps did an amazing analysis of parallels between Jon and Sansa. If I am not mistaken, it could be found somewhere on Jon Snow Reread Project.

I love this post Mladen. People are doing classic victim blaming when they blame Sansa for Lady & Ned.

Only one person is responsible for ladies death and that is Cersei. The person who called for it folk can argue that Robert never should have agreed that Sansa ought to have told the truth, that Ned should have free'd lady instead of kill her. But without Cersei calling for a pelt the rest is irelivent. Cersei killed Lady.

And Joffrey killed Ned.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I mostly agree. While I think Sansa is a great deal like Ned, there is of course some Catelyn in her. And yes, I think Robb thought about Jon when he decided to marry Jeyne. And while it seems clear that Sansa followed her mother's and septa's line regarding Jon, she was obviously never unkind to him. She clearly sees him as part of her family, and Jon does remember her very fondly (for example when he thinks that Sansa would have been enchanted by the landscape beyond the wall or when he remembers her telling him how to talk to girls). They never had the close bond Arya and Jon had, but they seem to have a maybe distant yet loving relationship. I never understood why some people think they would end up being enemies.

Oh I agree completely. I think Jon & sansa are a lot more fond of one another than many believe.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

And I think people who assume Robb married Jeyne as he was emulating his father are wrong. He was acting out of love and empathy for Jon. Not acting in his fathers image and his marriage to Jeyne does not show he is like Ned. Though I'm sure he had many qualities from his dad that was not one.

I see Sansa & Jon reuniting in TWOW. I think Arya will also be returned in the next book and Rickon too I am unsure as to where I think Brans tale is going.

[Mladen]

I love this post Mladen. People are doing classic victim blaming when they blame Sansa for Lady & Ned.

Only one person is responsible for ladies death and that is Cersei. The person who called for it folk can argue that Robert never should have agreed that Sansa ought to have told the truth, that Ned should have free'd lady instead of kill her. But without Cersei calling for a pelt the rest is irelivent. Cersei killed Lady.

And Joffrey killed Ned.

Thanks, dear. Cersei and Robert killed Lady, but it was undoubtedly LF who killed Ned... Ned was a victim of much sinister and serious game than it appears...

I see Sansa & Jon reuniting in TWOW. I think Arya will also be returned in the next book and Rickon too I am unsure as to where I think Brans tale is going.

That early? IDK, I think it's more possible that we see the great wolf pack reunion in ADOS. Sansa needs to clear out LF and entire Vale situation, Jon needs to be revived, and Arya needs to get out of Braavos. I imagine Rickon would be the first to arrive in Winterfell, and then Jon, Sansa and lastly Arya would follow. I doubt Bran will ever be back in any other form than as a tree.

[Julian Rayne]

People amaze me with their wishes and views. Somehow the incest part of Dany and Jon in a romantic relationship is icky and bad and disgusting and people don't want to even think about something romantic between them while it's okay for Jon and Sansa (who are still cousins) to be together because... why not, right? It doesn't matter to them that all their lives these two thought they were brother and sister.

While I have no strong feelings on Dany and Jon if they ever decide to continue the Targaryen tradition of inter-family marriages, I most certainly do find it disgusting if such a union happened between Jon and Sansa. Dany and him never even met, so attraction might occur when and if they finally do, but Jon/Sansa would be just sick even for GRRM.

There's a big difference between Aunt-Nephew and first cousins. Cousin marriages are legal in many parts of the world and they generally only have negative consequences if it's carried out for multiple generations.

It's particularly bad in a Jon/Daenerys scenario because Jon's father and Daenerys are both born of incest themselves. Their genetics would be much closer that sibling born to unrelated parents.

[Ashkhen]

That early? IDK, I think it's more possible that we see the great wolf pack reunion in ADOS. Sansa needs to clear out LF and entire Vale situation, Jon needs to be revived, and Arya needs to get out of Braavos. I imagine Rickon would be the first to arrive in Winterfell, and then Jon, Sansa and lastly Arya would follow. I doubt Bran will ever be back in any other form than as a tree.

Agreed... They both have a lot to resolve before there's any reunion. Unless TWOW has a lot of Jon & Sansa chapters, or their storylines resolve more quickly than it seems, I think it'll take until ADOS.

[Winnief]

I could see WoW closing out, with Sansa (having dealt with the LF/Vale situation) or way or another, and having heard about Rickon and Jon, deciding it was time to get the hell out of the SOuth, (which let's be honest-she's come to hate) and GO HOME. Meantime, Arya as well, has left Braavos or is on a ship.

[Sansa_Stark]

Sansa and Jon were made for each other.

[Northernmonkey]

Sansa and Jon were made for each other.

Don't be stupid.

[Sansa_Stark]

Don't be stupid.

me is not stoopid.

[para]

Sansa and Jon were made for each other.

A thoroughly convincing argument, if a little bit too concise.

[Annara Snow]

There's a big difference between Aunt-Nephew and first cousins. Cousin marriages are legal in many parts of the world and they generally only have negative consequences if it's carried out for multiple generations.

Not really. The difference between aunt-nephew and first cousins is not that big. And marriages between first cousins are also illegal in many countries in the world.

On the other hand, the difference between people who have never met, even though they may be related, and people who grew up thinking of each other as brother and sister, is HUGE.

In real life, an attraction between people related by blood who haven't grown up as family (i.e. grew up in foster homes or adopted, children of the same sperm donor...) happens quite often. It's a phenomenon called Genetic Sexual Attraction. On the other hand, a sexual attraction between people who grew up together as siblings and thought of each other as siblings is extremely rare and unlikely - even when they are not related by blood at all, and even if they knew it all along (e.g. adopted or foster siblings). Sure, GRRM gives us Jaime and Cersei, but they are a special case and always had incestuous feelings for each other. Jon and Sansa's never had any incestuous feelings for each other; they're not going to start feeling that way, or stop seeing each other as siblings, just because of a piece of info about Jon's parents. Jon will always see Ned as his father, rather than a dead man he never knew, and Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon as his siblings.

In short: the idea of Jon/Sansa in any romantic/sexual way is completely absurd.

It's particularly bad in a Jon/Daenerys scenario because Jon's father and Daenerys are both born of incest themselves. Their genetics would be much closer that sibling born to unrelated parents.

Which matters if they have children. Otherwise, not at all.

[Annara Snow]

Is there any evidence that the Targaryens in all of their enthusiastic sibling-boinking glory are subject to anything even remotely resembling a biologically-induced sibling-incest taboo? Because the Targs have been enthusiastic about it. Baelor the Blessed's sister ended up in the maidenvault because they were especially tempting to him. Targaryen-First Men hybrid Bloodraven was in a sordid love triangle with his sister and his brother. Etc etc.

In fact, all things considered, it might be even possible that the Targaryens might experience the opposite of the Westermarck Effect - that they are not merely not experience an aversion to people they have grown up with as romantic partners, but that they are actually more attracted to them than to regular people. After all, Baelor only locked his sisters away, not the rest of female Westeros.

So what evidence do we have, that if R+L=J, Jon will be subject to the Westermarck Effect? It won't be Lyanna's First Men genetics or else Bloodraven wouldn't have been into his sister. He could be nurtured and cultured to find incest icky but that would have nothing to do with the Westermarck Effect.

Sansa could experience the Westermarck Effect - or not. I think if Jon/Sansa was to happen, the most important thing would be for the reader to experience the Westermarck Effect vicariously anyway. Why was time to repulse the characters if you can repulse the readers instead?

What on Earth are you talking about? :huh: There's nothing inherently 'special' about the Targaryen DNA that draws them to incest. It's a cultural thing. They've been brought up to think it's normal to marry their siblings... and that still didn't drive most of them to actually fall in love or feel an incredible desire for each other, except perhaps in the case of Aemon and Naerys. Most of the incest couples weren't "enthusiastic" about each other at all. Those were political marriages. Aegon II had a paramour he spent all his time with, and his sister/wife Haelena didn't care. Aegon V and his sons married for love - and none of them married their sisters. Aerys and Rhaella didn't even like each other. Baelor was crazy and a prude, and do you have any evidence that he didn't keep other women away from him as well, and that he wasn't afraid of being tempted by women in general? I never got the impression that Viserys was that attracted to Dany, he wanted to rape her because he was super-possessive and felt that she belonged to him.

And it's particularly ironic that you're using Bloodraven, Shiera and Bittersteel to support your theory.... when it's incredibly unlikely that they were all brought up at court as siblings. They were presumably brought up by their respective mothers, which means that they did not grow up together and did not experience the Westermarck effect. Ditto Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys. Therefore, they are examples of Genetic Sexual Attraction. Thank you for providing further support to my argument.

Jon has already experienced the Westermarck effect, as did Sansa and Arya and Robb. It's not something you only experience when you are an adult, it's something you experience while you're growing up. Jon thinks of Sansa and Arya as his sisters and as Robb, Bran and Rickon as his brothers. Sansa thinks of Jon as her brother, as does Arya.

I think if Jon/Sansa was to happen, the most important thing would be for the reader to experience the Westermarck Effect vicariously anyway. Why was time to repulse the characters if you can repulse the readers instead?

I don't think you're getting what "Westermarck effect" means.

[Annara Snow]

Sansa and Jon were made for each other.

Was Qyburn involved?

[para]

What on Earth....

I don't think you're getting what "Westermarck effect" means.

I don't think you're getting what "fiction" means.

Fiction means that whatever happens - dragons, zombies, magic, prophecies, never-ending incest with hardly any birth defects in sight - has nothing to do with Earth-based biology or reality. They are narrative devices that further the plot or hammer a point home that GRRM wants to hammer home. Incest being Jon's final destiny will not depend on whether Jon would be biologically disinclined to do that by Earth standards. It will entirely depend on whether GRRM feels like it being a suitable ending.

So to argue for the existence of the Westermarck Effect in ASOIAF when there is not even a shred of evidence that GRRM even knows of it, is pretty funny.

[Grail King]

Back to parallels in Jon and Sansa's journeys. They are both also referred to as birds throughout the books. Sansa is little bird, dove, and assumes the sigil of the mockingbird while Jon is a crow. I think this could be a significant connection between the two. It reminds me of the pomegranate parallel. ( I'm not discounting Bran's dreams but I can't recall if anyone gives him such a nickname.)

Closest thing would be the Wing Wolf not sure ifit is fan based or BR gave it to him.

As far as Jon and Sansa, if they were separated let say Winterfell and White Harbor then it might be ok, but growing up like they did together they would dislike it themselves.

[Annara Snow]

I don't think you're getting what "fiction" means.

Fiction means that whatever happens - dragons, zombies, magic, prophecies, never-ending incest with hardly any birth defects in sight - has nothing to do with Earth-based biology or reality. They are narrative devices that further the plot or hammer a point home that GRRM wants to hammer home. Incest being Jon's final destiny will not depend on whether Jon would be biologically disinclined to do that by Earth standards. It will entirely depend on whether GRRM feels like it being a suitable ending.

So to argue for the existence of the Westermarck Effect in ASOIAF when there is not even a shred of evidence that GRRM even knows of it, is pretty funny.

I don't think you get what good fiction means. It means that, if Jon and Sansa were supposed to have incestuous feelings for each other, leading to a big romance, the author would have set it up. He never did. Jon and Sansa think of each other as siblings and have zero sexual/romantic thoughts and feelings about each other. It makes zero sense for them to suddenly decide they want to hook up because they learned that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Nothing in their respective storylines and characterizations suggests anything like that. It sounds like very bad fanfiction, or very bad fiction by an author who doesn't know the first thing about human psyche and about writing psychologically convincing characters.

And Westermarck effect has nothing to do with biology, and everything to do with psychology.

[The Holy Goat]

Not really. The difference between aunt-nephew and first cousins is not that big. And marriages between first cousins are also illegal in many countries in the world.

On the other hand, the difference between people who have never met, even though they may be related, and people who grew up thinking of each other as brother and sister, is HUGE.

In real life, an attraction between people related by blood who haven't grown up as family (i.e. grew up in foster homes or adopted, children of the same sperm donor...) happens quite often. It's a phenomenon called Genetic Sexual Attraction. On the other hand, a sexual attraction between people who grew up together as siblings and thought of each other as siblings is extremely rare and unlikely - even when they are not related by blood at all, and even if they knew it all along (e.g. adopted or foster siblings). Sure, GRRM gives us Jaime and Cersei, but they are a special case and always had incestuous feelings for each other. Jon and Sansa's never had any incestuous feelings for each other; they're not going to start feeling that way, or stop seeing each other as siblings, just because of a piece of info about Jon's parents. Jon will always see Ned as his father, rather than a dead man he never knew, and Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon as his siblings.

In short: the idea of Jon/Sansa in any romantic/sexual way is completely absurd.

Which matters if they have children. Otherwise, not at all.

Well, techniqually, and aunt and nephew shares 25% of their genetic makeup with each other, while cousins share 12,5% of their genetic makeup. Furthermore, since Dany's entire ancestry is riddled (though the Targaryens rate of sibling marriages seem to be overstated IMO) with sibling, cousing and aunt-nephew/uncle-niece marriages, a relationship between her and Jon would be far less genetically viable than a relationship between Jon and Sansa, since the Starks seem to have had very few marriages between close relatives. Also, the genetic viability in the Jon/Dany case is further complicated by Jon's father linage, which is the same as Daenerys. The impact of this would be far less if Sansa's 'pure' Stark genes were add to any future generations.

Also the only country in the western world were cousin marriage is illegal is the US. And that's in less than half it's states.

I guess it all depends on wether one finds genetics or emotions to be more important. Which of course is further complicated by the fact that we don't know what he would think and say if he were presented with aunt-Dany and coz-Sansa as potential partners.

I fail to see why it's absurd. 80% of all marriages in human history has been between cousins, and one of the percieved benefits was the fact a cousin was more familiar and known than a stranger just met. Often cousins even grew up together to foster this feeling of familiarity between future mates. Even today 20% of all couples over the world are first cousins. The idea of the Cousins Taboo is very recent.

Children and family life is the point of many marriages. Besides, shagging ones aunt is still squickier than shagging ones cousin IMO.

That said, I'm not really a supporter of this idea, and find it unlikely, mainly because of a lack of foreshadowing (though a lot can happen in the two-three books that are left). I just love science and facts. And genetics.

[Mourneblade]

Yes, I totally agree with you. Why would we blame the abuser when we have a victim to blame? Why would we read deep when we can easily create misconceptions regarding who did what? Of course, we have to forget half the series to make idiotic claims like "Sansa killed Ned" or "Sansa killed Lady". but, heck, who cares? We are free to ignore the entire text to make our opinion work. Then we came to even more (if possible) crazy idea that Sansa doesn't think of her family. I imagine reminiscing family in her every, and I repeat every POV chapter is not enough. Then of course, there is that nonsensical talk about passiveness. And then we see her doing many things. First, she wanted to kill Joffrey, than grabbed the first chance she got to escape from KL, then proactively betrayed Joffrey by telling Margaery and Olenna the truth, not because they manipulated her to do so, but because she pitied Margaery. Of course, speaking about parallels between her and her parents, they are all dancing to the strings of puppeteer. Choosing the path of least resistance? I imagine this is the talk about her wedding, where she actually resisted Tyrion and that wedding in the only way she could... Yes, some other would yell and scream and resist, but hey, Cersei made it rather clear what will happen... So, it wasn't the path of least resistance, it was the path of intelligence.

OP, nice analysis... Beside Tze, I remember Butterbumps did an amazing analysis of parallels between Jon and Sansa. If I am not mistaken, it could be found somewhere on Jon Snow Reread Project.

Wow awesome job being a Sansa apologist.

First she wanted to kill Joffery? Well she had that chance when Joffery introduced her to Spiked Ned... Every other Stark in that situation would have gladly sacrificed themselves in that moment..

Left KL at her first opportunity? I guess Sandor offering to help her escape at the battle of Blackwater bay was just imagined by Sansa and all of us readers.

Proactively betrays Joffery? You mean breaking down under pressure and scrutiny...

Sandor nails it exactly when he keeps referring to her as "Little Bird" because so far that is all she has shown us.

Parallel Arya's captivity in Harrenhal, where she was in far more danger of dying than Sansa ever was, to Sansa's captivity in KL. Arya works to learn the personality and habits of everyone around her, even at the risk of getting beaten or killed, so that she can use that information to stay alive AND escape. She is taking an active role in her destiny, she is making a STAND for right or wrong. Don't get me wrong, she makes some poor decisions, but she self reflects, and understands her mistakes to learn from them.

Sansa on the other hand only understands the people around her on a superficial level. Her self reflection is only skin deep. She never acknowledges or takes responsibility for her mistakes or actions, and as a result of that continues to make the same mistakes. It always someone else s fault. It is one thing to be a victim, and another thing to be a slave to your victimization. She is blind to the monster Joff is until he snips Ned's Head off. She is blind to Cersei's nature. She has yet to make a STAND on anything she believes in. She continues to be a victim of circumstance with Littlefinger, you know the guy, who kill Dontos and her Aunt right in front of her, and yet continues to place her trust in him, even though he has proven to her he is a liar. Once again Sansa is blind to all the Warning Bells that should be going off in her head.

She has no plan, and until she makes one, has a moment of clarity where she finally admits to herself and takes responsibility for her own actions and learns from her prior mistakes, and until she makes a stand on what she believes in, she will continue to be the Victim.

[Winter's Knight]

A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, “Maybe my brother will give me your head.”

Joffrey scowled. “You must never mock me like that. A true wife does not mock her lord. Ser Meryn, teach her.”

This time the knight grasped her beneath the jaw and held her head still as he struck her. He hit her twice, left to right, and harder, right to left. Her lip split and blood ran down her chin, to mingle with the salt of her tears. “You shouldn’t be crying all the time,” Joffrey told her. “You’re more pretty when you smile and laugh.” Sansa made herself smile, afraid that he would have Ser Meryn hit her again if she did not, but it was no good, the king still shook his head.

“Wipe off the blood, you’re all messy.”

The outer parapet came up to her chin, but along the inner edge of the walk was nothing, nothing but a long plunge to the bailey seventy r eighty feet below. All it would take was a shove, she told herself. He was standing right there, right there, smirking at her with those fat wormlips. You could do it , she told herself. You could. Do it right now . It wouldn’t even matter if she went over with him. It wouldn’t matter at all.

“Here, girl.” Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.

The moment was gone. Sansa lowered her eyes. “Thank you,” she said when he was done. She was a good girl, and always remembered her courtesies.