Lord Warwyck Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 everyone says Robb was the undefeated king and that treachery defeated him not tywin but the reality was that bolton betrayed him because he came on the losing side.Robb had a total 31,000 troops after the blackwater. 20,000 north-frey and 11,000 rivermen. lets say 30,000 thousand. They were faced against 80,000+ lannister-tyrell forces, tywins 20,000 men and reach's 60,000 men. Plus there were the hightowers who still kept their troops back and devan was raising another host.Even if say the boltons, freys and karstarks stayed loyal to him what could've he done done? He could try to levy from the riverlands but a great mystery is why didn't attempt this while tywin and his allies where in KL and the riverlands where free. But we don't see him do that while devan is raising another army in the west. Robb had plundered the west and had chests full of gold. Robb stark is hailed as one of the best generals but in terms of strategical thought he still lags behind tywin by some margin. During the entire war the 14,000 man north infantry under bolton did nothing. They took harrenhal without a battle and just sat there. Why didn't robb throw them at kings landing or use them to block the approach to the blackwater and stop tywin and mace from saving KL? The only course of action i see at that point, is robb forming a ring of defence along the eastern riverlands, heavily garrisoning every castle there against an enemy invasion, Harrenhal in particular. Then keep a reserve in riverrun and take 12,000 men west to sack lannisport and cripple the lannister family by taking their city and gold. If lannisport fell the lannisters would be severely weakened. Robb would have all the money he needed and would've taken out the power base of house lannister and then try to make a back table deal with the tyrells. But instead of doing any of this Robb makes a ridiculous 1000 mile march back to the north practically abandoning the riverlands to their own defense. Robb would've only saved his own kingdom and lost the war in the south for by the time(1.5-2 years) he would return to the riverlands after liberating the north the lannisters would've conquered everything. An even bigger question is how could the riverlords agree with robb's selfish policy of saving the north? I think it would've been sane and just for the riverlords to back stab robb not the boltons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Bend the knee, and wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sullen Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Bend the knee, and wait. This, essentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahura Mazda Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I told ya that Robb had no hopes right from the start, nobody ever listened. Apparently he did have another 34.000 spare men in the north and never raised them to conquer back the north. Also, he gave too much freedom/decisional power to Roose Bolton. He did take several suicidal decisions that weakened Robb's army on purpose (imho he was in agreement with Tywyin long before North loss, since he started early making such decisions). He could have done nothing, exactly. Only the north left alone was "impregnable", the RiverLands are so exposed that it's just too easy to move armies there.. Either you let each lord defend their own castle or you call your entire army back.. in both cases your opponent has just to change strategy to annihilate most of your stocks and wealth. The fact that the IronBorn once conquered it - with their own strategies - speaks alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
House Pintur Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 To sit at Riverrun for a few months before leaving for the north. In the months after the Red Wedding every major enemy of Robb is dead. The war was far from being over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 everyone says Robb was the undefeated king and that treachery defeated him not tywin but the reality was that bolton betrayed him because he came on the losing side. Robb had a total 31,000 troops after the blackwater. 20,000 north-frey and 11,000 rivermen. lets say 30,000 thousand. They were faced against 80,000+ lannister-tyrell forces, tywins 20,000 men and reach's 60,000 men. Plus there were the hightowers who still kept their troops back and devan was raising another host. Even if say the boltons, freys and karstarks stayed loyal to him what could've he done done? He could try to levy from the riverlands but a great mystery is why didn't attempt this while tywin and his allies where in KL and the riverlands where free. But we don't see him do that while devan is raising another army in the west. Robb had plundered the west and had chests full of gold. Robb stark is hailed as one of the best generals but in terms of strategical thought he still lags behind tywin by some margin. During the entire war the 14,000 man north infantry under bolton did nothing. They took harrenhal without a battle and just sat there. Why didn't robb throw them at kings landing or use them to block the approach to the blackwater and stop tywin and mace from saving KL? The only course of action i see at that point, is robb forming a ring of defence along the eastern riverlands, heavily garrisoning every castle there against an enemy invasion, Harrenhal in particular. Then keep a reserve in riverrun and take 12,000 men west to sack lannisport and cripple the lannister family by taking their city and gold. If lannisport fell the lannisters would be severely weakened. Robb would have all the money he needed and would've taken out the power base of house lannister and then try to make a back table deal with the tyrells. But instead of doing any of this Robb makes a ridiculous 1000 mile march back to the north practically abandoning the riverlands to their own defense. Robb would've only saved his own kingdom and lost the war in the south for by the time(1.5-2 years) he would return to the riverlands after liberating the north the lannisters would've conquered everything. An even bigger question is how could the riverlords agree with robb's selfish policy of saving the north? I think it would've been sane and just for the riverlords to back stab robb not the boltons I think if he could have somehow pulled the Vale and Dorne into the war on his side, then that might have done it. The gods only know how, but I think that would be it. Of course, we now know why they stayed out of things, but had that changed, that would be enough men to counter the power of the Tyrells and Lannisters combined. Mind you, after the attack on the north and seizure of Winterfell, the Boltons and Freys began planning their treachery; the Blackwater made it certain (not so much Stannis' defeat, but the Tyrells choosing to side with an already-battered House Lannister). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belisarius09 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 With winter coming his best option would have been to pull back and defend moat Cailin. He could preserve his northern kingdom and kick the iron born out. He couldn't save the Riverlands. Personally I think he should have taken his infantry with him when he struck out west and struck Casterly rock instantly, forcing Tywinn to choose casterly rock or Kings landing. Instead of just pillaging and putting the ball in Tywinn's court giving him all the initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub_Zero94 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 he could have took one for the team and married Lady Olenna Tyrell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joluoto2 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Get rid of the Greyjoys, sacrifice the Riverlands and sit it out up North waiting.. The Lannisters won't try to come after him in the Winter, and Moat Cailin can't be taken from the south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Do the GreyJoys still attack the North?? Does the purple wedding still take place?? Does Tyrion still kill Tywin?? Does Stannis still go to the wall(Rodrik being alive can send the wall as many men as they need)??Assuming GreyJoys attack the North but the Boltons remain loyal(including Ramsay) then they will be kicked out quite easily without Robb needing to get back North.Also the situation is not as dire as it seems - The Lannisters cannot march without taking Storm's End and Dragonstone - they are too close to KL to leave untaken. It would take a long siege to take both these fortresses giving Robb at least a year's time to gather more men(it has been made quite clear that the North still has plenty of untapped reserves) and build ships. Remember Manderly's navy is a secret - no one knows it exists(he has hidden it up the white knife) In another year's time Robb's navy could double in size and if the Lannisters and Tyrells march into the riverlands Robb could bypass them entirely using his navy and attack the undefended KL. If Robb takes KL then the Lannisters and Tyrells have no option but to sue for peace(Robb holds their King, Queen, Prince and Queen Regent - not to mention Mace's favorite son as well).Of course Tywin might not want to give Robb the luxury of time - and he decides to storm Storm's End and Dragonstone - he would lose thousands if not tens of thousands - especially if Stannis stays at DraongStone - he might become too weak to take on Robb who will be defending his position from strong fortresses like Harrenhall, Riverrun and the Twins, With Winter coming Tywin does not have much time to defeat Robb and too few men to storm all of Robb's main strongholds.I doubt Tywin would want to split his troops 3 ways to engage all his enemies at once - he now has a healthy respect for Robb, he wont risk another loss against him.Again all of this is assuming Tywin lives and the purple wedding does not take place. If it does and Tywin dies then I dont think Robb has much to fear - especially considering the imminent ironborn invasion of the reach and Golden Company invasion of the Stormlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund GiantsMANE Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 ^^^^ all of that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose The Weddingcrasher Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Could have invited Roose and all the other Northerners to join him in the Westerlands (preferably before Duskendale) and then sacked Lannisport. Then he would wait for the Tyrells and what's left of the Lannisters to come at him. Except they wouldn't, because the Tyrells would have other concerns by then. The Greyjoy problem was going to solve itself, as we saw. -> War=basically won. Only thing left would be to bend the knee to Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpt24 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Not die. Literally, just don't die (like Stannis) and he'd have a decent shot since Balon and Tywin die letting Cersei takes control of Kings Landing and the Ironborn get succession issues. Second step would be to reorganize his army based on the British armies of the Hundred Years War. I'm half joking but seriously those armies often defeated French armies which outnumbered them heavily. Aggressively attacking towards Lannisport might have been a good idea. Alternatively fighting defensively in the Riverlands (and fighting against river crossings) might have worked as well. I don't understand exactly why he wasn't able to raise a few more troops from the North to deal with the Ironborn. If he could detach a small number of his soldiers, merge them with new recruits from the North, then he could have a sub commander (Greatjon) remove the Ironborn while Robb focused on the Lannisters and Tyrells. Tyrells are formidable but really it's Tarly who is the danger for Robb. Redwayne is a naval commander and Mance isn't particularly skilled, at least that's the impression he gives off. On the diplomatic front he should have done more to try and ally with Dorne, and perhaps tried to work a deal out with Stannis. Yes I am aware the challenges associated with that deal but it would have been worth some effort. Stannis has the right idea (Winds of Winter Spoiler) by trying to get a loan and hire mercenaries. Finally, once Dany and Ageon become possible King/Queen candidates opening dialogue with them to try and take on the Lannisters would have been wise. I think Ageon would probably be more favorable to Robb due to the fact he's actually gets to Westeros and only has the Golden Company. But Dany needs a real foothold and Westeros support so she might have worked with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 The fact that he seemed to be hopelessy outmatched yet continued to win only proves his superiority in command. His overall prospects weren't as dire as we make them out to be, remember he was headed back North, his stronghold, where Tywin wouldn't likely venture after him. Had the RW not happened, he wouldn't have been considered the winner but he hardly would have been the loser. He had more than proved his point. Killing him was necessary to bring the north back under the crown. If you ask anybody in Westeros its doubtful anybody says Tywin and the Lannisters beat him, somebody just killed him, not the same thing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyBaratheon Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Get rid of the Greyjoys, sacrifice the Riverlands and sit it out up North waiting.. The Lannisters won't try to come after him in the Winter, and Moat Cailin can't be taken from the south. This. There was no winning and also holding the Riverlands. He would have to let them go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 No way could Robb "win" without sacrificing the Riverlands. He couldn't stay in the South or else his army would get destroyed by the Tyrell-Lannister alliance. If he went up North, I don't doubt he could beat the IB out of it. The Crown might wait a while, but when winter is over, I'm sure they'd be coming for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelcan Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Let the Riverlands go, stay in the North and wait, perhaps seek an Alliance with Dorne or get the Vale off its ass in the lull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kinkslayer Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 He could have sued the Lannisters for peace, promising to marry Cersei, freeing Jaime and bending the knee with the condition of being named lord of the riverlands and king in the north (king only in name), then he could have hired the bloddy mummers to serve the last dish (who wants Weasel soup?) on the red-grey wedding in Harrenhall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelcan Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 He could have sued the Lannisters for peace, promising to marry Cersei, freeing Jaime and bending the knee with the condition of being named lord of the riverlands and king in the north (king only in name), then he could have hired the bloddy mummers to serve the last dish (who wants Weasel soup?) on the red-grey wedding in Harrenhall They'd never accept those terms. By then he might be allowed to take the black, assuming Joffrey could be brought to heel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 The moment Winterfell was sacked and his brothers "killed" Robb lost the war, even though he was never defeated in a battle - because those two acts led to him breaking his marriage agreement with Walder Frey and Catelyn releasing Jaime (which led to the departure of the Karstarks). There were no other alliances to be made, except maybe Dorne, but that wouldn't do Robb much good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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