what could have Robb Stark done to win the war after Blackwater?

[the conquoring bastard25]

Thank you. Tywin Lannister was a monster in human skin. With that being said I can't wrap my head around anyone saying that Tywin didn't know what was going to happen to Elia, with the Mountain that Rides kills her child what woman isn't going to react. So even if he didn't give the order he knew what the out come was going to be. Elia dead and him making his daughter queen over the corpses of children.

[complexphoenix]

The only thing I can think of is getting his army through the Neck using Crannogman guides, thus bypassing the Twins to get back to the North. Once he was back in his own lands and able to raise new levies of loyal men he'd have a chance, but in order for that to happen, someone would need to warn him about the Frey-Bolton betrayal. Absent that warning, he truly had no realistic chance even if he'd held on to the Karstarks.

[TheCrannogDweller]

The only thing I can think of is getting his army through the Neck using Crannogman guides, thus bypassing the Twins to get back to the North. Once he was back in his own lands and able to raise new levies of loyal men he'd have a chance, but in order for that to happen, someone would need to warn him about the Frey-Bolton betrayal. Absent that warning, he truly had no realistic chance even if he'd held on to the Karstarks.

In order to go into the Neck, he has to pass either through the Twins or through the Ruby Ford.

However if you mean march them past the Twins to the source of the Green Fork and use guides there - I don't know if that is even possible. To be honest, I've looked at that part of the map and I have no idea why it couldn't be used.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I beg to differ. If it wasn't personal, why didn't he order that Robb be captured instead of slaughtered?

Robb outwitted him, captured his Golden Boy, destroyed two Lannister armies, invaded his precious Westerlands and while there pillaged his herds and took two of his castles. He had the Old Lion chasing his tail and to Tywin the fear of becoming a laughingstock is a powerful motivator. And there is no need to denigrate his abilities - it is pretty clear that most of them are blown out of proportion.

Edit: In his own words:

:rolleyes: Where's Hear me Meow when you need him...

You really can't think of any reason that killing Robb would make sense other than personal spite from Tywin?

Tywin promised the North both to Roose and Tyrion. Why the hell would he then order Robb be kept alive when he has the chance to remove him and his claim entirely? Roose might not have even gone through with the RW if Robb were to be captured BTW, throwing in words like "precious" and "golden boy" doesn't make your claims any stronger. Fact is Tywin never expresses any personal animosity to the Starks

"The blood is on Walder Frey's hands, not mine" Does that sound like gloating pride? The Red Wedding wasn't personal for anyone except the Freys

[TheCrannogDweller]

:rolleyes: Where's Hear me Meow when you need him...

You really can't think of any reason that killing Robb would make sense other than personal spite from Tywin?

I never said that there weren't any other reasons. But it was personal.

Tywin promised the North both to Roose and Tyrion...

After the Blackwater. After Robb had already spurned his pride.

[averde]

If were going to pretend that the discord and political upheaval in kings landing, aegons arrival, etc isn't known to us then nothing but surrender. Robb lost simple as that.

If we do have all that info he probably still dies/ loses since as king of the north AND the river lands he's honor bound to come back and defend the river lands where he'll undoubtedly be crushed.

[Mourneblade]

Robb's fate was sealed when he sent Theon home.

His last hope of changing that fate died when Edmure blocked Tywin from crossing into the west.

After Blackwater there is nothing Robb can do. Roose sends Robb's loyal infantry to die in Duskindale and now outnumbers Robb two to one. It was inevitable.

[TurkeyRod]

He should of bent the knee to Stan the man

[Ramsay Gimp]

He should of bent the knee to Stan the man

I don't see why people think this would have altered his fate. Robb was Stannis's de facto ally in the WO5K. whether either of them wanted to admit it. He fought and delayed the Lannisters while Stannis gathered his forces for the death blow at King's Landing. If Robb had declared for Stannis, he likely would have made the same tactical moves because Tywin at Harrenhal would have prevented them from joining their hosts.

Which means everything would have proceeded in pretty much the same way: Robb goes West> Stannis kills Renly at Storm's End and gains his men> Theon takes Winterfell and "kills" Bran and Rickon> Robb marries Jeyne>Stannis loses at Blackwater> Frey and Bolton do Red Wedding or something similar

[Lord Damian]

Jeyne Westerling did more to defeat Robb than the Blackwater. Theon Greyjoy going home, perhaps even more. Robb was caught in a pickle due to two incredibly bad diplomatic moves and the defeat of another army, led by Stannis. That does not take to account they failure to plead with the Vale lords etc to come to their side which would have been huge nor even reach out to Dorne. Robb was out of his league except on the field of battle. So sad.

[Minsc]

I don't see why people think this would have altered his fate. Robb was Stannis's de facto ally in the WO5K. whether either of them wanted to admit it. He fought and delayed the Lannisters while Stannis gathered his forces for the death blow at King's Landing. If Robb had declared for Stannis, he likely would have made the same tactical moves because Tywin at Harrenhal would have prevented them from joining their hosts.

Which means everything would have proceeded in pretty much the same way: Robb goes West> Stannis kills Renly at Storm's End and gains his men> Theon takes Winterfell and "kills" Bran and Rickon> Robb marries Jeyne>Stannis loses at Blackwater> Frey and Bolton do Red Wedding or something similar

The only difference I could see is Robb might not send Theon back home in that case in how he cannot promise an alliance with an independent Iron Islands if he was supporting Stannis.

Not that kneeling to Stannis makes any sense, least of all he hadn't declared by the time Robb was named king and he has the smallest army in the realm.

[King Rhaego]

After Stannis was defeated on the Blackwater, Robb had a decent amount of options. Im going to go off of the situation where Robb doesnt break his wedding pact with the Freys and the Red Wedding does not happen. Because if he survives, things are looking pretty good for him. Tywin and Joffrey are both dead leaving Cersei running the show, which I would assume would still happen because the Tyrells killed joffrey to keep margaery safe, hes got Balon dead and the Ironborn pulling back out of the North for the Kingsmoot, a sizeable force about to take back Winterfell and the rest of the North from the remaining Ironborn. I dont think that the forces Robb had left would be anywhere close enough to take Casterly Rock, but say hes stays in the south: The North has been won back, Ironborn starting to raid in the Reach destracting the Tyrell forces which leaves a pretty battered up Lannister force to oppose him. Robb really could of gone in many directions in this situation. Keep plundering the Westerlands, try and get the damn Vale involved on his side, raise another force from his northern levies. This is all assuming though that he doesnt get betrayed by both Roose and Ramsay Bolton, and the Freys.

[King Rhaego]

Having said that, Robb was a great battle commander but I dont think he had the greatest strategies set in place. Trying to lure Tywin back into the West was great, but other than that I did not see anything in the long run helping him win. I really feel that he could of done more to get the Vale to join him, atleast send some lord to speak instead of just ravens. I think kneeling to Stannis would not of mattered much either way. Stannis had about 1,500 troops left sitting on dragonstone. Stannis' remaining ships could of helped Robb in some way Im sure. But even if Stannis still sails to the North to help the wall, then looks south again, Robbs remaining forces in the North could take care of Stannis' remaining men if Robb chose to take that path.

[TurkeyRod]

I don't see why people think this would have altered his fate. Robb was Stannis's de facto ally in the WO5K. whether either of them wanted to admit it. He fought and delayed the Lannisters while Stannis gathered his forces for the death blow at King's Landing. If Robb had declared for Stannis, he likely would have made the same tactical moves because Tywin at Harrenhal would have prevented them from joining their hosts.

Which means everything would have proceeded in pretty much the same way: Robb goes West> Stannis kills Renly at Storm's End and gains his men> Theon takes Winterfell and "kills" Bran and Rickon> Robb marries Jeyne>Stannis loses at Blackwater> Frey and Bolton do Red Wedding or something similar

The two never were directly plotting and working together i'm just saying mayhaps if they had put there two pea sized brains together they might have accomplished something greater.

[LordGiantUmber]

hello, now I finally have the time to join this forum...

soo after blackwater , robb was in a really bad position ,what he needed to do was to march back north as soon as possible safely and with no more delays. before doing this, he needs to do the same original plan to take moat cailin and send Galbert and maege early....keep lord karstark a prisoner and tell him he will ransom his son Harrion only if he remains loyal ,then go from Riverrun to Harrenhal at the castle have a little chat with roose Bolton about his losses in the war. hopefully robb will realise that something is wrong here(its likely) ,now I'm gonna go with a scenario in which robb learns that roose is in league with the lannisters , he commands greatjon to arrest him , of course dreadfort men are not going to be happy with their lord in chains ,so the best solution will be to disarm them(like stannis did to the karstarks in wow) Robb being his fathers son beheads roose Bolton ,for conspiring with tywin and sending men to be butchered at duskendale.robb has 4k horse and roose has at least 6k foot(before gregors attack) out of these 3k are dreadfort men not counting these robb should have 7k loyal northman ,now this is the best part cross the ruby ford and march to moat cailin from there meaning no need to pass through the twins,make sure to send word to the blackfish to send riverland troops to garrison harrenhall after you leave and job done :cool4: ......... next thing you know is robb is back in the north kicking the living daylights out of the ironborn :devil: ... thoughts

[Lion of the West]

hello, now I finally have the time to join this forum...

soo after blackwater , robb was in a really bad position ,what he needed to do was to march back north as soon as possible safely and with no more delays. before doing this, he needs to do the same original plan to take moat cailin and send Galbert and maege early....keep lord karstark a prisoner and tell him he will ransom his son Harrion only if he remains loyal ,then go from Riverrun to Harrenhal at the castle have a little chat with roose Bolton about his losses in the war. hopefully robb will realise that something is wrong here(its likely) ,now I'm gonna go with a scenario in which robb learns that roose is in league with the lannisters , he commands greatjon to arrest him , of course dreadfort men are not going to be happy with their lord in chains ,so the best solution will be to disarm them(like stannis did to the karstarks in wow) Robb being his fathers son beheads roose Bolton ,for conspiring with tywin and sending men to be butchered at duskendale.robb has 4k horse and roose has at least 6k foot(before gregors attack) out of these 3k are dreadfort men not counting these robb should have 7k loyal northman ,now this is the best part cross the ruby ford and march to moat cailin from there meaning no need to pass through the twins,make sure to send word to the blackfish to send riverland troops to garrison harrenhall after you leave and job done :cool4: ......... next thing you know is robb is back in the north kicking the living daylights out of the ironborn :devil: ... thoughts

The problem is that since the river has flooded due the rains you can't cross it at the Ruby Ford and so you need to use a bridge. And while Robb is up north with his men, the Tyrells, Stomlords, Crownlanders and Lannisters will descend on the Riverlands to tear it appart. At best the Riverlords can hold out in their castles while their enemies pick them off one by one.

[Carter209]

Assuming the Boltons stay loyal:

1-Open negotiations with the Watch to free Jon from his vows. Robb needs an heir since Bran, Rickon,and Arya are believed to be dead and Sansa a captive in King's Landing. Trade the Ironborn taken in Winterfell, with the exception of Theon, for Jon's release from his vows.

2-Along the same lines, give Jon the authority to treat with Mance Rayder as Robb's envoy and have a high ranking Watch member(Noye, Buckwell, Marsh) on hand to negotiate the resettlement of the wildlings in the Gift. Also probably a good idea to have the chiefs of the Hill tribes and an Umber uncle on hand, as well, since they're the northernmost lords. This step cannot be accomplished without the FULL COOPERATION of the Watch. If Mance is willing to get the wildling chiefs(Tormund, Harma Dogshead, the Weeper etc.) on board, then begin the process of resettling the wildlings in the Gift along with the possibility of Mance being named Lord of the Gift.

3-Use Ramsey and Rodrik to root out the Ironborn in the North. It's even possible that Bran and Rickon may reveal themselves, giving Robb the opportunity to negotiate with others, such as Stannis, for alliances.

4-JUST WAIT. Events are already in motion for the Lannister/Tyrell alliance to implode. Have Tallhart, Cerwyn, or even Ramsey march half of the remaining Northern host to Moat Cailin while also having Jon reinforce the Wall to guarantee the wildlings good behavior.

5-Go along with the Edmure/Roslin match, but do not attend the wedding. Stay in Riverrun while events in King's Landing and, theoretically, at the Wall and in the North play out.

Strictly speaking, had Ramsey not killed Rodrik and sacked Winterfell, then Bran and Rickon may have revealed themselves. That gets rid of the Ironborn problem on it's own since Robb doesn't have to march back North. Getting Jon released from his vows gives him someone who can treat with Mance and, perhaps, give him more manpower. Jon may have to stay at the Wall to oversee their resettlement, but then again, Jon may not want to leave since the Others are marching on the Wall, anyway.

[starklinson]

I think breaking his alliances (Freys, Karstarks, etc.) really played a part in his death. His fate was sealed when that happened, and he didn't quite realize how badly he was losing until it was too late. I think if he had kept his promises and listened to Catelyn (who had much more political insight), he would have had a chance.

[The Bittersteel]

Should have married Margaery Tyrell with Renly gone, or at least made a play for it. After Blackwater it was too late he couldn't win in the field.

[Winterfell is Burning]

All Robb had to do was stay alive and not trust Walder Frey. The Lannister decadence would begin pretty soon, the Ironborn would be out of the North and invading the Reach, and Stannis would help him defeat the Wildlings and the Others, and it's not impossible that the two of them would ally considering they both had bigger fish to fry.